Why are so many Muslims violent?

[DECISIVE_ANGEL]

This may seem like an unfair question but when it comes acts of violence, Muslims are the ones that will feel justified by their relgion. Christians and everyone else it seems, when they do evil deeds, it has more do do with flaws in humanity in general. The fundamental difference between the Bible and the Koran is that while the Bible is a compulation of several books written across 1500 years by several different authors, Islam is believed to be written all at once, one time, by Allah, handed down from Gabriel. This would make the bible more open to interpretation, yet christians don’t go around bombing schools and flying planes into buildings. Does this have to do with Christians following the New, but not Old Testament since the New Testament makes the old one obsolete?

Anyways I talked to a Muslim friend of mine and he told me you can’t take little parts of the Koran to understand it but you have to read it entirely. When I ask him about all the violence committed by Muslims, he tells me they aren’t true Muslims. They don’t understand its true beauty and wisdom. Something doesn’t add up.

Could someone please give me a no bs scholary answer?

---

Once when in his cave, Muhammad, while asleep, sense a mysterious presence, then he saw the figure holding a scroll covered with letters. The figure, later identified as the angel Jibril (Gabriel), ordered him to read or recite it. Muhammad replied he did not know how to read. Again the strange figure ordered him to read. “What shall I read,” asked Muhammad after the figure wrapped the scroll around the bewildered man’s neck and ordered him to read for the third time.

I don’t know. Ignorant as it may sound but what if it was Satan who appeared to Muhammad in the cave down in the earth.

 

[staffsgt7]

well , to me being one of arab muslims , i have to say that my conclusion is that it’s you who havn’t read islamic texts , not camerong

with all my respect , you have to distinguish between “islamic texts” and "texts about islam " .

may be you read much about islam , but unfortunately not the islamic ones

do you mean that all islaimc sites and all islamic teaching and all the muslims who write about their religion in the internet , not actually write what they believe , rather they write the opposite of their beliefs so that no one can know their real beliefs


it depends on your defination for jihad , if jihad means to you the terrorism be performed by muslims agianst innocents , so it will be 100% of jihad is to do violence agianst unbelievers not 90 % as you suggested

And you haven’t read the links to even the article on this website that I have saved just in case you coerce/bully the owners of this site to take it down.

And this is what I was talking about when I wrote that Muslims are the ones who usually do not tell us the truth about what Islamic texts contain. I have not only read the Koran and much of the hadith and sira, but also Sharia laws and many docs that our government has released regarding what the Muslim Brotherhood, along with the wahabbis, and other subversive groups do in our Western countries. I have read much more and do not stop reading.

I have gotten the truth only from exMuslims.

You can’t fool one who has read your texts. Between the rants, the boredom of the Koran, are the violence of the Koran that I could not miss. Since I am also very much aware that most Muslims do not know their texts you are once again misleading. Too many memorize it in a language they do not fully know and understand.

I also know that according to your laws “Islamic law is clear that anyone, including a Muslim who lacks in depth knowledge of the various dimensions of Arabic, the figurative, literal, and the forms of metaphor, is prohibited from explaining or interpreting anything in the koran and the hadith, beyond what they have heard from another who possesses these abilities. One must also have a complete knowledge of which verses abrogate others and which verses stand abrogated. …”

No, many do know the texts that is why the deception to us infidels. I am sure you know taqiyya. And yes, it is a Sunni thing as it is a Shia thing as it is a ‘whatever sect you insert here’ thing since ‘war is deceit’ per Mohammed. No Muslim will admit to the fact that in dar al harb, they are in a state of war and here we go back to JIhad, the 6th pillar of Islam. Jihad is over 90% of violence against unbelievers. I cannot control how often Jihad is mentioned in the your texts that is to be violent. You are not making any sense in that regards.

We can go around and around with this and you know that I got it exactly correct and you will never admit to it unless you realize that you picked the wrong ideology to follow.

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.
—Koran 8:55—

The unbelievers are your open enemy.
—Koran 4:101—

Mohammed is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are hard against the unbelievers but merciful to one another.
—Koran 48:29—

We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers.
—Koran 3:151—

 

[Booklover]

And you haven’t read the links to even the article on this website that I have saved just in case you bully the owners of this site to take it down.

And this is what I was talking about when I wrote that Muslims are the ones who usually do not tell us the truth about what Islamic texts contain. I have not only read the Koran and much of the hadith and sira, but also Sharia laws and many docs that our government has released regarding what the Muslim Brotherhood, along with the wahabbis, and other subversive groups do in our Western countries. I have read much more and do not stop reading.

I have gotten the truth only from exMuslims.

You can’t fool one who has read your texts. Between the rants, the boredom of the Koran, are the violence of the Koran that I could not miss. Since I am also very much aware that most Muslims do not know their texts you are once again misleading. Too many memorize it in a language they do not fully know and understand.

I also know that according to your laws “Islamic law is clear that anyone, including a Muslim who lacks in depth knowledge of the various dimensions of Arabic, the figurative, literal, and the forms of metaphor, is prohibited from explaining or interpreting anything in the koran and the hadith, beyond what they have heard from another who possesses these abilities. One must also have a complete knowledge of which verses abrogate others and which verses stand abrogated. …”

No, many do know the texts that is why the deception to us infidels. I am sure you know taqiyya. And yes, it is a Sunni thing as it is a Shia thing as it is a ‘whatever sect you insert here’ thing since ‘war is deceit’ per Mohammed. No Muslim will admit to the fact that in dar al harb, they are in a state of war and here we go back to JIhad, the 6th pillar of Islam. Jihad is over 90% of violence against unbelievers. I cannot control how often Jihad is mentioned in the your texts that is to be violent. You are not making any sense in that regards.

We can go around and around with this and you know that I got it exactly correct and you will never admit to it unless you realize that you picked the wrong ideology to follow.

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.
—Koran 8:55—

The unbelievers are your open enemy.
—Koran 4:101—

Mohammed is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are hard against the unbelievers but merciful to one another.
—Koran 48:29—

We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers.
—Koran 3:151—

Excellent! Keep the truth coming!

Vickie

 

[sedonaman]

—and having studied it, I have not found anything in the Qur’an or the hadith relied upon by mainstream Muslims which can be reasonably interpreted as spurring on violence and terrorism. My conclusion, and one that is shared by the vast majority of disinterested (non-Muslim) scholars who study Islam, is that there is no smoking gun in Islam where we can point and say “that’s why they did 9/11” or “that’s why they have suicide bombers.” Do not think scholars cannot be trusted because they are so relativist as to think no religion could be bad; most religious studies professors are stringent atheists and would have no problem discussing and publicizing any aspects of Islam which seek violence against innocents. I think if Muslims use Islam as an excuse for violence, they poorly interpret their own scriptures. And nothing said here has changed that opinion. I have read the Qur’an, and find on the whole that it instills a strong respect for innocent life. When it is entirely unclear to me–and many others whose opinion I respect–that Islam spurs on violence, and there are clearly many other factors contributing to the violence of modern Muslims, and I don’t see a convincing reason to pin their crimes on the religion.

“In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages.” – Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell
sydney.catholic.org.au/Archbishop/Addresses/200627_681.shtml

Further, and perhaps this is a better direction to turn the discussion, I see throughout history that we have erred far too much on the side of suspicion and hatred towards ideologies different than our own.

“It was written in the Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their [Muslims’] authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman [as Muslims were called then] who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.” – Tripoli’s ambassador to London in response to Thomas Jefferson John Adams’ inquiry into by what right did the Barbary states prey on American ships, March 1785. [It is worth noting that the United States played no part in the Crusades, nor in the Catholic reconquista of Andalusia; nor did the state of Israel exist at the time. The US was merely minding its own business.]

… But when we claim Islam is a religion of violence, we drive reasonably [sic] Muslims from us. …

Define a “reasonable” Muslim.

 

[sedonaman]

…
When you find that over 90% of Jihad is to do violence against the unbeliever - did you just skim over those passages? In fact, I read an article where it was as high as 98%, but I cannot find the article right now. …

This one?

…For an example of using statistics, look at the question: what is the real jihad, the jihad of inner, spiritual struggle or the jihad of war? Let’s turn to Bukhari (the Hadith) for the answer, as he repeatedly speaks of jihad. In Bukhari 97% of the jihad references are about war and 3% are about the inner struggle. So the statistical answer is that jihad is 97% war and 3% inner struggle. Is jihad war? Yes – 97%. Is jihad inner struggle? Yes – 3%. So if you are writing an article, you can make a case for either. But in truth, almost every argument about Islam can be answered by: all of the above. Both sides of the duality are right. …

The Study of Political Islam

 

[camerong]

This statement of yours is why I come to the conclusion that you have not read any Islamic texts. I don’t know how you can even hint at the Koran and other texts of Islam as not having any orders to continue the violence that Mohammed started in Medina.

I am sorry if you get upset over that but there is a disconnect between what you are saying and what the Islamic texts say. In fact it sounds very Islamic, or Muslim, what you are saying. I have heard Muslim deny the violence on different websites that I posted before coming to this website. I just figured they are just trying to deceive me, and sometimes it is their word usage. They define words differently than we do so as to appear more moral and less violent and also wrap holiness in it all.

and it goes on,

My wish that people refrain from personal attacks is not to protect my feelings, it is an effort to maintain a civil, respectful debate. You telling me that you don’t believe I’ve read any Islamic texts is not problematic because I get upset–Its not as if you saying that will make me forget somehow that I spent much of my undergrad studying Islam and the Qur’an–but because it does not advance the discussion at all.

To accuse me of being Muslim is closer to be insulting, though I’m not sure if you intended that. But again, I’m not terribly concerned with making sure people on an online forum truly believe that I’m Catholic.

When you find that over 90% of Jihad is to do violence against the unbeliever - did you just skim over those passages? In fact, I read an article where it was as high as 98%, but I cannot find the article right now.

90% of what Jihad? 90% of what you think Jihad is? As I noted before, jihad by reasonable Muslims (and most Muslims) is seen as an internal struggle. 90% of jihad is probably over lust, or lack of faith, or something very similar to what 90% of Catholics struggle with. Again, as I said before, many Muslims see jihad as a call to wage physical war for the cause of Islam–I’m not sure where this “kill the nonbelievers” thing comes from, even al Queda has never, to my knowledge, waged a campaign simply to kill non-Muslims. But even if many Muslims engaged in what they considered jihad which required them for some reason to kill nonbelievers, that does not necessarily reflect on Islam. The Bible tells some people, apparently, to kill abortion doctors, or so they say. Are we to accept the religious interpretations of murders? You might say (and, let me say, anticipating and objecting potential counterarguments is a valid form of argument) that there are far more Muslims in a violent jihad than Christians killing abortion doctors. But that could simply mean that Muslims who misinterpret jihad are more persuasive–and find themselves in a position to persuade more people–than Christians who kill abortion doctors. This is to be expected, really, considering that Christians in the U.S. are well-educated and relatively rich. Many more Muslims, especially in the Middle East, are poorly educated and poor. It is much easier to be convinced of a terrible idea when you have a 2nd grade education and are starving. Compound this by the fact that many, many Muslims in the Middle East know someone who has been killed in wars in the past 30 years that they have been mislead (let me be clear, MISLEAD) to believe is the fault of the West. So, praying on deep-seated mistrust for the West, a lack of education, and a sense of desperation in these Muslims, a relative few murderers with bad interpretations can create a whole generation of murderers with bad interpretations. That’s how I see that so much violence has been created recently in the Middle East. It does not explain violence in the past, but all major civilizations and countries have been involved in bloody conflicts over the years, and all ruling classes have oppressed. This is not in any way to diminish the atrocities that occurred in the past or occur now, but I do not believe Islam is the sole or major force of them.

I don’t think I’m going to change anyone’s mind. Perhaps my only reason of posting was to show that someone educated on the subject, who is also a red-blooded American and toe-the-line Catholic (who served in the Army National Guard and lost battle buddies in Iraq) could believe that Islam is not clearly a religion of violence. Take it for what you will.

 

[sedonaman]

When one refers to something as a false religion, it is not in the way one says a “false door” that is not really a door. A false religion merely means a religion that does not reflect the truth of the universe. The word religion means a system of belief (or something of the like), but it does not mean a system of beliefs that are all true.

You are not making any sense here.

 

[camerong]

I’ve deleted this post, because I don’t wish to keep this conversation going any longer. Please see the post below, if Islam was a religion of violence and terror, how we ought to react.

 

[Reuben_J]

 ...

But when we claim Islam is a religion of violence, we drive reasonably Muslims from us. They, who naturally disagree, think less of our judgment and intellect. The message of Christ is powerful enough that we have no need to tear down other religions, but need only build our own up. When Muslims see the wonder of Christ’s true Church, their religion will pale by comparison, even in their own view of it. But we will not get there perpetuating suspicion and distrust.

This approach is worth trying. I am no fan of Islam and when I thought of what Muslims did to Christian nations throughout history, the hurt is painful. Egypt, the North African states, Syria, Asia Minor and Iraq were once Christian nations until Islam conquered and Islamized them. Constantinople with the famous Haga Sophia was desecrated and turn into a Muslim mosque. What can be more hurting than that? And yet Christianity rise above all these. If only we could believe in what it teaches and live by it, yes, I think their religion will be pale by comparision, even in their own view of it. Unfortunately, many Muslims do not see ordinary Christians on the street as following the teaching of Jesus Christ and actually believing and practicing it. The Pharisic nature of the fallen man is too entrenched in us sometimes that it simply takes over when we try to defend Christianity from a precieved threat. Jesus never said his kingdom is of this world. If that is alright with him I see no reason why we should not do the same.

 

[camerong]

This approach is worth trying. I am no fan of Islam and when I thought of what Muslims did to Christian nations throughout history, the hurt is painful. Egypt, the North African states, Syria, Asia Minor and Iraq were once Christian nations until Islam conquered and Islamized them. Constantinople with the famous Haga Sophia was desecrated and turn into a Muslim mosque. What can be more hurting than that? And yet Christianity rise above all these. If only we could believe in what it teaches and live by it, yes, I think their religion will be pale by comparision, even in their own view of it. Unfortunately, many Muslims do not see ordinary Christians on the street as following the teaching of Jesus Christ and actually believing and practicing it. The Pharisic nature of the fallen man is too entrenched in us sometimes that it simply takes over when we try to defend Christianity from a precieved threat. Jesus never said his kingdom is of this world. If that is alright with him I see no reason why we should not do the same.

As I said before, I think this is the only constructive direction to move this debate, so I appreciate the response to it. I would readily concede the point that Islam is a violent religion of terror if we could all agree to this. Other thoughts?

 

[Booklover]

The same can be said of the Old Testament, when read without knowledge of its overall story and context. When I read the Qur’an with this knowledge, I did not find this to be the case.

You might as well have found me a writing by al Qaeda and told me this was a good interpretation of the Qur’an. Do you think that it is impossible for people to read into a text what they wish to justify actions they want to take? But I do appreciate the reminder that the U.S. was not involved in the Crusades

Someone who reads the Qur’an and the most authoritative Hadiths with an eye on interpreting them in the way that they are most internally consistent. It means not ignoring clear prohibitions of killing innocents while interpreting holy struggle, which the context indicates should primarily be internal, to mean flying airplanes into buildings. A good rule of interpretation is to interpret in their plain meaning the passages which are most clear–like protecting innocent life–and then consider how unclear passages which appear to be contradictory can fit them. Of course, it is likely that passages in the Qur’an do contradict each other (as I believe it is a false teaching), but I have not clearly seen this contradiction in terms of violence, and have yet to see any surah posted which indicates one.

(I write this last only because I failed to see this response before)

You may claim whatever you want, but your posts make no sense! Why do you use the same arguments (Timothy McVeigh and people who kill abortion doctors) that Muslims use? I find it ridiculous that you don’t even seem to see the hateful teachings in the Quran. You’re a gift to the appeasers of Islam!

Vickie

 

[staffsgt7]

“In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages.” – Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell
sydney.catholic.org.au/Archbishop/Addresses/200627_681.shtml

“It was written in the Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their [Muslims’] authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman [as Muslims were called then] who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.” – Tripoli’s ambassador to London in response to Thomas Jefferson John Adams’ inquiry into by what right did the Barbary states prey on American ships, March 1785. [It is worth noting that the United States played no part in the Crusades, nor in the Catholic reconquista of Andalusia; nor did the state of Israel exist at the time. The US was merely minding its own business.]

Define a “reasonable” Muslim.

The weblink address is now here: sydney.catholic.org.au/people/archbishop/addresses/2006/200627_681.shtml It is just a subtle difference but the article is good if it reaches Catholics about the violence in the Koran.

 

[camerong]

To those who have responded to me–feel free to get the last word in, but I will not be responding until the debate has taken a different turn. Neither of us will convince each other or sway each other on this point, and I have grown weary of accusations that I am betraying Catholicism.

 

[staffsgt7]

My wish that people refrain from personal attacks is not to protect my feelings, it is an effort to maintain a civil, respectful debate. You telling me that you don’t believe I’ve read any Islamic texts is not problematic because I get upset–Its not as if you saying that will make me forget somehow that I spent much of my undergrad studying Islam and the Qur’an–but because it does not advance the discussion at all.

To accuse me of being Muslim is closer to be insulting, though I’m not sure if you intended that. But again, I’m not terribly concerned with making sure people on an online forum truly believe that I’m Catholic.

90% of what Jihad? 90% of what you think Jihad is? As I noted before, jihad by reasonable Muslims (and most Muslims) is seen as an internal struggle. 90% of jihad is probably over lust, or lack of faith, or something very similar to what 90% of Catholics struggle with. Again, as I said before, many Muslims see jihad as a call to wage physical war for the cause of Islam–I’m not sure where this “kill the nonbelievers” thing comes from, even al Queda has never, to my knowledge, waged a campaign simply to kill non-Muslims. But even if many Muslims engaged in what they considered jihad which required them for some reason to kill nonbelievers, that does not necessarily reflect on Islam. The Bible tells some people, apparently, to kill abortion doctors, or so they say. Are we to accept the religious interpretations of murders? You might say (and, let me say, anticipating and objecting potential counterarguments is a valid form of argument) that there are far more Muslims in a violent jihad than Christians killing abortion doctors. But that could simply mean that Muslims who misinterpret jihad are more persuasive–and find themselves in a position to persuade more people–than Christians who kill abortion doctors. This is to be expected, really, considering that Christians in the U.S. are well-educated and relatively rich. Many more Muslims, especially in the Middle East, are poorly educated and poor. It is much easier to be convinced of a terrible idea when you have a 2nd grade education and are starving. Compound this by the fact that many, many Muslims in the Middle East know someone who has been killed in wars in the past 30 years that they have been mislead (let me be clear, MISLEAD) to believe is the fault of the West. So, praying on deep-seated mistrust for the West, a lack of education, and a sense of desperation in these Muslims, a relative few murderers with bad interpretations can create a whole generation of murderers with bad interpretations. That’s how I see that so much violence has been created recently in the Middle East. It does not explain violence in the past, but all major civilizations and countries have been involved in bloody conflicts over the years, and all ruling classes have oppressed. This is not in any way to diminish the atrocities that occurred in the past or occur now, but I do not believe Islam is the sole or major force of them.

I don’t think I’m going to change anyone’s mind. Perhaps my only reason of posting was to show that someone educated on the subject, who is also a red-blooded American and toe-the-line Catholic (who served in the Army National Guard and lost battle buddies in Iraq) could believe that Islam is not clearly a religion of violence. Take it for what you will.

And I am supposed to take your knowledge of the Koran because you served in the National Guard, your blood is red or that you have lost buddies? Those are not reasons to believe you when I know the facts are different. Thanks for serving, and I served in the Marine Corps. I lost family members in Iraq. the last time I checked my blood was red too and I am an American too. But that wasn’t why I started reading the Koran and other things concerning Islam, it was after 9/11 and I wanted to know why they hate us, why so many Muslims were so happy over death, why they have been attacking us for decades, and why they then turned around and told us ‘we do not believe in suicide and we do not believe in killing innocents’ when it did not ring true. Why did so many of them AIM for unarmed civilians not only in America but abroad?

In my readings I found out that in all their Jihads against the Hindus in India that even the Hindus did not aim for the Muslim’s women and children as the Muslims did to them. The Hindus have been noted for their fierceness but even that repulsed them. Mohammed had no qualms about attacking caravans that had women and children, or cities that were not known for war but for trade. And he is their perfect man.

I only ask that you read the texts before telling everyone what you hope is in them. I wish they were more peaceful too. ‘Reasonable’ Muslims will tell us whatever we want to hear because we do not want a war, violence, or anything like that. Many of them do not want violence either and hope that we just all revert to Islam or accept subjugation.

Listen, I am not going to convince you to read something that you don’t want to read. I have to agree that it is something that doesn’t sound appealing. But just say you WANT it to be peaceful, don’t tell us your wants vs what the facts are of what the Koran and other texts contain. When you really start reading them and read things about how they are to deceive us that will really give you a chill once you realize how good they are at it. And they really believe that deception is good and holy. I remember Walid Shoebat giving us a presentation just a month ago and he said that their Gabriel sounds like the Christian’s Lucifer. (Walid gave a presentation to many Jews and Christians in the Bay area this past summer)

Even one of your Bishops that sedonaman gave you is telling you what the Koran says. A guy called Father Botros also has tried to tell others of what Islamic texts contain and he really goes into it indepth.

Don’t you find it ironic that the ones who are so willing to agree with you are Muslims who are told that they are to deceive us?

Robert Spencer: “… peaceful Muslims have never formulated an Islamic response to the jihadists’ claim to represent pure and true Islam—and as long as they do not and apparently cannot do so, the jihadists will continue to hold the intellectual initiative within Islamic communities worldwide… no one, Muslim or non-Muslim, has ever yet refuted the contention that Islam teaches warfare against and the subjugation of unbelievers. And so one thing is certain: that warfare will continue”.

 

[Booklover]

And I am supposed to take your knowledge of the Koran because you served in the National Guard, your blood is red or that you have lost buddies? Those are not reasons to believe you when I know the facts are different. Thanks for serving, and I served in the Marine Corps. I lost family members in Iraq. the last time I checked my blood was red too and I am an American too. But that wasn’t why I started reading the Koran and other things concerning Islam, it was after 9/11 and I wanted to know why they hate us, why so many Muslims were so happy over death, why they have been attacking us for decades, and why they then turned around and told us ‘we do not believe in suicide and we do not believe in killing innocents’ when it did not ring true. Why did so many of them AIM for unarmed civilians not only in America but abroad?

In my readings I found out that in all their Jihads against the Hindus in India that even the Hindus did not aim for the Muslim’s women and children as the Muslims did to them. The Hindus have been noted for their fierceness but even that repulsed them. Mohammed had no qualms about attacking caravans that had women and children, or cities that were not known for war but for trade. And he is their perfect man.

I only ask that you read the texts before telling everyone what you hope is in them. I wish they were more peaceful too. ‘Reasonable’ Muslims will tell us whatever we want to hear because we do not want a war, violence, or anything like that. Many of them do not want violence either and hope that we just all revert to Islam or accept subjugation.

Listen, I am not going to convince you to read something that you don’t want to read. I have to agree that it is something that doesn’t sound appealing. But just say you WANT it to be peaceful, don’t tell us your wants vs what the facts are of what the Koran and other texts contain. When you really start reading them and read things about how they are to deceive us that will really give you a chill once you realize how good they are at it. And they really believe that deception is good and holy. I remember Walid Shoebat giving us a presentation just a month ago and he said that their Gabriel sounds like the Christian’s Lucifer. (Walid gave a presentation to many Jews and Christians in the Bay area this past summer)

Even one of your Bishops that sedonaman gave you is telling you what the Koran says. A guy called Father Botros also has tried to tell others of what Islamic texts contain and he really goes into it indepth.

Don’t you find it ironic that the ones who are so willing to agree with you are Muslims who are told that they are to deceive us?

Robert Spencer: “… peaceful Muslims have never formulated an Islamic response to the jihadists’ claim to represent pure and true Islam—and as long as they do not and apparently cannot do so, the jihadists will continue to hold the intellectual initiative within Islamic communities worldwide… no one, Muslim or non-Muslim, has ever yet refuted the contention that Islam teaches warfare against and the subjugation of unbelievers. And so one thing is certain: that warfare will continue”.

Thanks to you for serving! Another great post!

Vickie

 

[staffsgt7]

Thanks to you for serving! Another great post!

Vickie

Thanks. Do you ever feel like this? :banghead: Sometimes I just can’t believe what it takes to get people to read, or to do, for their own lives.

 

[Booklover]

Thanks. Do you ever feel like this? :banghead: Sometimes I just can’t believe what it takes to get people to read, or to do, for their own lives.

Yes, I most certainly know what you mean and feel the same way. I just can’t understand why so many fail to see the truth about Islam. My search started after 9/11. Just like the Cardinal, I wanted to see what made these people commit mass murder and suicide. It’s all there in the teachings of Islam!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

Here’s an interesting about the “sacredness” of the Quran. It also explains how Muslims are indoctrinated into believing in it.

The author states:

The Quran miserably fails the test of its claimed sacredness, i.e. it’s the ‘word of God’. And how Muslims take recourse to numerous deceptive and silly explanations and ploys to maintain sacredness of the Quran. Interestingly, an alleged ‘divine book’ needs humans to stretch their efforts to its silly limits to maintain what it claims to be.
Sacred/Sacredness is: Something entitled to reverence and respect; highly valued and important (especially in a religious sense) (Merriam-Webster).
The Quran, the so-called holy or sacred book of Muslims, is manifestly not entitled to reverence or respect. A proper description of the Quran would be something as follows:
‘The Quran is the most irrational, non-linear, convoluted, repetitive, idiotic and vile book ever written in the history of failed literary fiction.’ This book is a written manifestation of the thoughts of a person who suffered delusions of grandeur. He, with the help of others, compiled this hodgepodge of utter stupidity and terror. The Quran is a manual of war. It incites violence, orders killing, war, amputations, and so on and so forth. It is hailed as the word of god and as the greatest masterpiece. Nothing can be farther from truth."

 

[camerong]

And I am supposed to take your knowledge of the Koran because you served in the National Guard, your blood is red or that you have lost buddies? Those are not reasons to believe you when I know the facts are different. Thanks for serving, and I served in the Marine Corps. I lost family members in Iraq. the last time I checked my blood was red too and I am an American too. But that wasn’t why I started reading the Koran and other things concerning Islam, it was after 9/11 and I wanted to know why they hate us, why so many Muslims were so happy over death, why they have been attacking us for decades, and why they then turned around and told us ‘we do not believe in suicide and we do not believe in killing innocents’ when it did not ring true. Why did so many of them AIM for unarmed civilians not only in America but abroad?

In my readings I found out that in all their Jihads against the Hindus in India that even the Hindus did not aim for the Muslim’s women and children as the Muslims did to them. The Hindus have been noted for their fierceness but even that repulsed them. Mohammed had no qualms about attacking caravans that had women and children, or cities that were not known for war but for trade. And he is their perfect man.

I only ask that you read the texts before telling everyone what you hope is in them. I wish they were more peaceful too. ‘Reasonable’ Muslims will tell us whatever we want to hear because we do not want a war, violence, or anything like that. Many of them do not want violence either and hope that we just all revert to Islam or accept subjugation.

Listen, I am not going to convince you to read something that you don’t want to read. I have to agree that it is something that doesn’t sound appealing. But just say you WANT it to be peaceful, don’t tell us your wants vs what the facts are of what the Koran and other texts contain. When you really start reading them and read things about how they are to deceive us that will really give you a chill once you realize how good they are at it. And they really believe that deception is good and holy. I remember Walid Shoebat giving us a presentation just a month ago and he said that their Gabriel sounds like the Christian’s Lucifer. (Walid gave a presentation to many Jews and Christians in the Bay area this past summer)

Even one of your Bishops that sedonaman gave you is telling you what the Koran says. A guy called Father Botros also has tried to tell others of what Islamic texts contain and he really goes into it indepth.

Don’t you find it ironic that the ones who are so willing to agree with you are Muslims who are told that they are to deceive us?

Robert Spencer: “… peaceful Muslims have never formulated an Islamic response to the jihadists’ claim to represent pure and true Islam—and as long as they do not and apparently cannot do so, the jihadists will continue to hold the intellectual initiative within Islamic communities worldwide… no one, Muslim or non-Muslim, has ever yet refuted the contention that Islam teaches warfare against and the subjugation of unbelievers. And so one thing is certain: that warfare will continue”.

I’m not going to respond to your points, as I have already said, but can you see how insulting and unhelpful so much of your post is? You continually assert that I do not or have not read the relevant texts. That I will not read for myself. That I will not admit that I am wanting to read a certain thing. If it wasn’t so infuriating to be responded to in this way, I could have left this hopeless cause many pages ago. You have accused me a number of times of outright lying, and I have half a mind to alert a moderator. Please do not think that I have ceased responding to your arguments because I have nothing else to say. But there is nothing that can be said to someone who tells you “you lie, you’ve never read the Koran.”

 

[cthulhubryan]

Here’s an interesting about the “sacredness” of the Quran. It also explains how Muslims are indoctrinated into believing in it.

Thanks Vickie, that was very interesting.