Why are some medicinal interventions ok, some not?

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I’m asking because I’m curious, and not because I’m stirring the pot. If artificial birth control medicines are “bad” because they interfere with the natural course of life, though birth is possible even with birth control in place. Is invitro fertilization ok? What about lasik eye surgery? I ask because these seem to be double standards they too interfere with the natural progression. How about flu vaccines?
 
I’m asking because I’m curious, and not because I’m stirring the pot. If artificial birth control medicines are “bad” because they interfere with the natural course of life, though birth is possible even with birth control in place. Is invitro fertilization ok? What about lasik eye surgery? I ask because these seem to be double standards they too interfere with the natural progression. How about flu vaccines?
artificial birth control interferes with the proper functioning of the human body. No in vitro is not “okay” because that is not the natural way the body works and not what God intended. It interferes with marital intimacy as well as the natural means of procreation.

Lasik surgery, flu vaccines, and other medical interventions prevent or correct a flaw or disorder in the natural intended workings of the human body. Artificial BC introduces a flaw or disorder into a properly functioning human body and that is its intention.
 
in vitro is not “okay” because … It interferes with marital intimacy as well as the natural means of procreation.
But isn’t the inability to fertilize and procreate a flaw too?
I like the explanation of the vaccines and lasik.
 
But isn’t the inability to fertilize and procreate a flaw too?
I like the explanation of the vaccines and lasik.
Surgery to correct the problem would certainly be in order. In vitro fertilization is not such a surgery.
 
If artificial birth control medicines are “bad” because they interfere with the natural course of life,
That is not why contraception is morally wrong.
Is invitro fertilization ok?
No.
What about lasik eye surgery?
Certainly.
I ask because these seem to be double standards they too interfere with the natural progression.
That is not the reason contraception and in vitro fertilization are morally wrong.
 
But isn’t the inability to fertilize and procreate a flaw too?
Certainly.

And any treatment that corrects the defect-- unblocking a fallopian tube for example-- is morally licity. Procedures may assist, not replace, intercourse.

In vitro is a sin against the Sixth Commandment.
 
Catholic objections (to IVF)
From Wikipedia:
The Catholic Church opposes all kinds of in vitro fertilisation because, as with contraception, it separates the procreative purpose of the marriage act from its unitive purpose:
This particular doctrine, often expounded by the magisterium of the Church, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.
The reason is that the fundamental nature of the marriage act, while uniting husband and wife in the closest intimacy, also renders them capable of generating new life—and this as a result of laws written into the actual nature of man and of woman. And if each of these essential qualities, the unitive and the procreative, is preserved, the use of marriage fully retains its sense of true mutual love and its ordination to the supreme responsibility of parenthood to which man is called. We believe that our contemporaries are particularly capable of seeing that this teaching is in harmony with human reason.[79]
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church,
Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that “entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children.”[80]
The Catholic Church maintains that it is not objectively evil to be infertile, and advocates adoption as an option for such couples who still wish to have children:
The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord’s Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.[80]
Gamete Intrafallopian Transfer (GIFT)[81] is not technically in vitro fertilisation because with GIFT, fertilisation takes place inside the body, not on a Petri dish. The Catholic Church nevertheless is concerned with it because “Some theologians consider this to be a replacement of the marital act, and therefore immoral.”[82]
 
See also the Catechism of the Catholic Church at:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P86.HTM

The 6th Commandment
2376 Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child’s right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses’ "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."166
2377 Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. the act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."167 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union … Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."168
2378 A child is not something owed to one, but is a gift. the “supreme gift of marriage” is a human person. A child may not be considered a piece of property, an idea to which an alleged “right to a child” would lead. In this area, only the child possesses genuine rights: the right “to be the fruit of the specific act of the conjugal love of his parents,” and "the right to be respected as a person from the moment of his conception."169
2379 The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord’s Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.
 
“Procedures may assist, not replace, intercourse.”

I do not see how an infertile couple using in vitro fertilization replaces intercourse. As I understand it, a marriage can still be valid even if intercourse among the partners is for biological reasons presumed infertile.

In vitro is a sin against the Sixth Commandment."

Can you explain this?
 
From the Catechism:

"Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. the act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."167 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union … Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."168

It seems then that the problem with homologous artficial insemination and fertilization is that they are procreative acts that are not sexual. My question would be why does every procreative act need to be a sexual one. Is it the case that every procreative act that is not sexual violates the sixth commandment?
 
If we follow the theologian Bernard Longeran model: truth, goodness and love is what we strive for in all situations. It’s difficult to make generalizations and provide definite yes and no answers because it depends on the situation. Medicine is a big topic and one has to be specific with the situation and diagnosis to begin to answer your question. Theology and medicine can go together but again it depends on the situation. IVF could fit into this model because the technology is enabling infertile couples a chance to have children. IVF also has a long list of pros and cons that Catholic teachings, theologians and society can dispute outside this thread. Sometimes surgery isn’t a good idea because it may prolong a person’s life but at what cost? I’m studying medical bioethics therefore the question you asked is impossible to answer given so little information.
 
If we follow the theologian Bernard Longeran model: truth, goodness and love is what we strive for in all situations. It’s difficult to make generalizations and provide definite yes and no answers because it depends on the situation. Medicine is a big topic and one has to be specific with the situation and diagnosis to begin to answer your question. Theology and medicine can go together but again it depends on the situation. IVF could fit into this model because the technology is enabling infertile couples a chance to have children. IVF also has a long list of pros and cons that Catholic teachings, theologians and society can dispute outside this thread. Sometimes surgery isn’t a good idea because it may prolong a person’s life but at what cost? I’m studying medical bioethics therefore the question you asked is impossible to answer given so little information.
If I understand the Church correctly, IVF is something that is intrinsically contrary to natural law such that its wrongness does not depend on the situation. I don’t think, therefore, that the Church would say that it could fit into the truth, goodness and love model in so far as this model is consistent with natural law. Or, is this not what you mean by “depends on the situation”?
 
I’m asking because I’m curious, and not because I’m stirring the pot. If artificial birth control medicines are “bad” because they interfere with the natural course of life, though birth is possible even with birth control in place. Is invitro fertilization ok? What about lasik eye surgery? I ask because these seem to be double standards they too interfere with the natural progression. How about flu vaccines?
You are misunderstading natural progression with natural process. IVF is condemned because fertilization takes place OUTSIDE of the woman’s body and then the fertilized embryo is reimplanted. It’s a unnatural process because it takes place entirely outside the womb – the fertilization. For the Church, fertilization can only take place in the natural completion of the marital act inside the female and directed toward the womb or cervix.

The other surgeries and medical procedures you mention correct or prevent disease or death. There’s nothing wrong with having lasix eye surgery to correct vision problems, just as a flu shot may prevent the death of an elderly person or a young child who cannot fight off the infection should they get it.

It’s not a double standard.
 
“IVF is condemned because fertilization takes place OUTSIDE of the woman’s body and then the fertilized embryo is reimplanted. It’s a unnatural process because it takes place entirely outside the womb – the fertilization. For the Church, fertilization can only take place in the natural completion of the marital act inside the female and directed toward the womb or cervix.”

I think you are right in describing a difference, but why is the fact that the conception occurs outside the womb in IVF morally significant? Suppose it were possible, after an act of sexual intercourse between the two married partners, for doctors to surgically conduct a similiar process to IVF inside the woman. It seems to me that the Church might find this procedure objectionable as well given what was quoted from the Catechism. Hence, it seems to me that the fact that the conception is occurring outside the woman might not be the motivating factor in the Church’s objection to IVF.
 
“IVF is condemned because fertilization takes place OUTSIDE of the woman’s body and then the fertilized embryo is reimplanted. It’s a unnatural process because it takes place entirely outside the womb – the fertilization. For the Church, fertilization can only take place in the natural completion of the marital act inside the female and directed toward the womb or cervix.”

I think you are right in describing a difference, but why is the fact that the conception occurs outside the womb in IVF morally significant? Suppose it were possible, after an act of sexual intercourse between the two married partners, for doctors to surgically conduct a similiar process to IVF inside the woman. It seems to me that the Church might find this procedure objectionable as well given what was quoted from the Catechism. Hence, it seems to me that the fact that the conception is occurring outside the woman might not be the motivating factor in the Church’s objection to IVF.
Describe this “possibility” in more detail. If a married couple were able to complete the act and a doctor was able to then go in and entice a sperm to meet an egg, I don’t think the Church would have a problem with that at all. The coupled completed the act as they should, and all the doctor would be doing is helping a woman’s body to act as it should.

IVF also requires some other things to happen that are morally suspect. For example you have to get sperm somehow to fertilize the eggs which will require some sort of masturbation on the man’s part. There is also the fact that many times with IVF you are destroying some fertilized eggs in your attempt to get pregnant because not all of them are needed. IVF does not work with our bodies. It is an attempt to distort our bodies to work how we would like them too, and give us what we want when we want it.
 
That is not the reason contraception and in vitro fertilization are morally wrong.
You left me high and dry here :p… but thanks to all who answered. I guess I didn’t understand in vitro correctly. Artificial insemination is what I was thinking, but I’ve got plenty to ruminate over!
 
Umm…you basically have to think for yourself!
I know that is an UN-Catholic thing to do, but, thats life in a nutshell. Nobody knows what God intends or doesn’t intend. It’s all a lot of prattle which just muddles the thinking part of your brain. If nothing happens without God’s Will, then, logically, anything which exists for medical benefit for humans should be allowable. But, the anti-modernists will argue otherwise. They will weave a web of convoluted pretzel logic to get to a place which confirms THEIR position no matter what Reason tells them.
Think for yourself!
 
I think you are right in describing a difference, but why is the fact that the conception occurs outside the womb in IVF morally significant? Suppose it were possible, after an act of sexual intercourse between the two married partners, for doctors to surgically conduct a similiar process to IVF inside the woman. It seems to me that the Church might find this procedure objectionable as well given what was quoted from the Catechism. Hence, it seems to me that the fact that the conception is occurring outside the woman might not be the motivating factor in the Church’s objection to IVF.
It is morally significant because the conception must take place INSIDE the woman’s body in the course of normal marital realtions.

I cannot do “suppose it were possible.” I’ll leave that for the Church to decide if it ever happens.

This is what we have now. You either get pregnant through natural means or a doctor extracts multiple eggs, the husband masturbates (another sin) and then some eggs (multiples because of the high cost and risks of successful implantation) and then takes the fertilized egg and reimplants it.

At present there is no other possible way, unless you want a ruling on Surrogacy, which still requires the man to masturbate.

Many woman cannot get pregnant because either one is sterile. What good is having a third party in the room to facilitate a process that cannot happen?

You don’t have to believe me; look it up. The process of conception that takes place OUTSIDE of the female’s body is condemned by the Church.

Here’s the problem, just because science CAN does not mean that we SHOULD.
 
Nate13 and Leegal: I lumped together some quotes to focus my responses.

“Describe this “possibility” in more detail. If a married couple were able to complete the act and a doctor was able to then go in and entice a sperm to meet an egg, I don’t think the Church would have a problem with that at all. The coupled completed the act as they should, and all the doctor would be doing is helping a woman’s body to act as it should.”

“It is morally significant because the conception must take place INSIDE the woman’s body in the course of normal marital realtions…You don’t have to believe me; look it up. The process of conception that takes place OUTSIDE of the female’s body is condemned by the Church.”

In my example, the doctors would not be helping the woman’s body to act as it should, rather, they would be conducting the action of the conception, after a martial act let us say, inside her body just as they would have should they have taken the genetic material from the same marital act and done so outside her body. They are not helping the body to actively conceive, but rather conducting the action of conception in her body. Would the fact that this process is occurring inside her body rather than outside of it (even if it was done with genetica material from a marital act) mean that her body was any more acting as it should? When the Church writes, “They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. the act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person”, this leads me to think that they might still have an issue with such a procedure. This would mean that even if occurring inside the woman’s body was a necessary condition of the act being morally licit, it would not be sufficient such that not all conceptions that occurred inside the woman’s body would be morally licit even if the conception, in a sense, resulted from a martial act. If this were true, the Church would not be rejecting IVF solely because it was a procreative act without a sexual one. Given the example, it seems that the act might be wrong for the Church because it embodies a procreative act that conducted by doctors instead of one that resulted from the sexual act by itself. An interesting question might be whether or not it would make a difference if the spouses themselves were the doctors.

“IVF also requires some other things to happen that are morally suspect. For example you have to get sperm somehow to fertilize the eggs which will require some sort of masturbation on the man’s part. There is also the fact that many times with IVF you are destroying some fertilized eggs in your attempt to get pregnant because not all of them are needed. IVF does not work with our bodies. It is an attempt to distort our bodies to work how we would like them too, and give us what we want when we want it.”
“At present there is no other possible way, unless you want a ruling on Surrogacy, which still requires the man to masturbate… This is what we have now. You either get pregnant through natural means or a doctor extracts multiple eggs, the husband masturbates (another sin) and then some eggs (multiples because of the high cost and risks of successful implantation) and then takes the fertilized egg and reimplants it.”

Consider the following example: a couple has sex and doctors proceed the sperm and an egg from this martial act. The doctors would then proceed to use in vitro to conduct fertilization and then place the embryo into the woman. Would this be licit? If it wasn’t, it does not seem that it could be faulted due to masturbation. Further, in this example, IVF would not entail the destruction of the other eggs and thus it does not seem as though it could be faulted on this ground either. To continue, as an intentional act, it might be argued that IVF is procreative such that if we are ordered toward procreation, why would it be the case that IVF was a distortion of anything?

Layman F:
To discuss artificial insemination, if the sperm or egg came from a person who was not one of the spouses, this, it seems to me, could be said to me to be morally wrong in that the procreation, as a matter of the substance of the child, is not constituted by the two married persons. In IVF, the third party work is procedural—the genetic material is of the two spouses—and might be said to be morally different in this respect.
 
Umm…you basically have to think for yourself!
I know that is an UN-Catholic thing to do, but, thats life in a nutshell. Nobody knows what God intends or doesn’t intend. It’s all a lot of prattle which just muddles the thinking part of your brain. If nothing happens without God’s Will, then, logically, anything which exists for medical benefit for humans should be allowable. But, the anti-modernists will argue otherwise. They will weave a web of convoluted pretzel logic to get to a place which confirms THEIR position no matter what Reason tells them.
Think for yourself!
While you could argue that everything that happens is God’s will because he has absolute power and authority, this is different than saying God approves of everything that happens. Their are reasons why God allows evil to exist, namely that it is important to him that we have free will which requires allowing evil to exist. You cannot go through life assuming that if God had a problem with what your doing he would strike you down with lightning or at least prevent you from doing it.

Your logic is simple, yet flawed. Unfortunately you sometimes have to dive into the pretzel logic and try and straighten it out or at least figure out how it all goes together. I’m sure this will shatter the little bubble of surety you had, but that’s life.
 
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