Why are some of you Catholic, Roman Catholc, Obl. OSB, etc

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Reuben_J said:
A bishop with apostolic succession can ordain a priest and the priest is valid - thus the Orthodox Church’s priests have apostolic succession.

If a bishop with apostolic succession is excommunicated, then he cannot function anymore as a bishop - he cannot ordain a priest. Thus the Lutherans and the Anglican cannot claim apostolic succession from this aspect as their bishops had been excommunicated, for example Luther in the Lutheran church. Similarly for the Tridentines if their bishop’s function is withheld by the Pope then they cannot anymore ordain valid priests.

God bless.
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not very true,
only a valid bishop can validly ordain a priest. When king henry broke away forming the anglican communion, the bishops in that communion were all validly ordained, so they all had apostolic succession and valid sacrament. They were valid until the prayers for the consecration of bishops were changed, the prayer stoped short of actually ordaining a bishop, at that point d anglican communion was luthernise, so all the bishops install by the said prayer, were invalidly consecrated, the priest weren’t ordain to make the sacrificial eucharist that only is an arguement that the anglican church didn’t really intent to truly ordain priests. That arguement aside, the invalid bishops could only “ordain” invalid priests, and the line of the “invalids” went on.
It seem the said prayers were later corrected but by then all the valid bishops had died and the communion had lost apostolic succession.
 
KathleenGee said:
Thanks…but some Lutherans believe they receive Christ sacramentally…am I understanding them correctly…GKC has clarified some points here…all reflect as well outside, Anglicanism…and some within Lutheranism, are considered churches, but the rest of Protestants defined as ecclesial communities.

The Lutherans do not believe in the word, transubstantiation. And then there is the issue of understanding Scripture and interpreting on your own authority, rather than apostolic.

What I heard the other day on ETWN…simple for me…that to ordain, one must be in full communion with the pope and bishops in communion…have always understood Orthodox’s standing because they were founded by the apostles…

Back to Tridentine…they are in schism, and are illicit, and ordaining illicitly. Sounds almost parallel to being defined as X rated.
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not exactly true,
a valid bishop can ALWAYS validly ordain, but to ordain, but when a valid bishop ordain wen outside communion, he ordains validly but illicitly and in the latin rite to ordain without d knowledge of d pope wen not absolutely necessary may incur excommunication, d ordained and he wu ordains still have valid sacraments only illicit.
 
Thanks, Unebictus…

Our instructor was a bishop who was on the Commission for Ecumenism at the Vatican Council II in Rome. It was complicated. I think you have brought out his points…

Will reflect on them, thanks again.
 
Christian_Unity said:
Maybe we can have a Christian alliance consisting of Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians one day? Anybody up for ECT 3?
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Your intention is well established, but is it impossible within a polemic context.

We all possess Christ–this is true. But we do not possess him in equal measures. The fullness of Truth, that is, the great mystery of the organic Body of Christ cannot be fundamentalized. Firstly, for the obvious reason: we do not all share the same Eucharistic faith. And second, because insofar as ecclesiology is concerned, the Church would not be properly catholic or orthodox if there was no clear or consistent principle of christological dogma. We cannot say, “we all have Christ” if we cannot even agree on who Christ, in theological principle, is. We might as well be a society of gnostic theists who say “Jesus Christ existed and I have a relationship with Him” but have no consistent and universal understanding on the theology of what that entails. Ascetic, dogmatic, and mystical theology are all intertwined. On that note, Christ is integral to the Gospel. If we cannot agree on Him, then we cannot agree on the truth that constitutes the universal and mystical Body of Christ, or in fact the truth of the Gospel! The mystagogy (and nowadays, even the pedagogy) of the Church is not something arbitrary, because the truth of Christ is not arbitrary.

Now, because I’m an idealist (if you believe me), I should mention that I think it would be most beneficial to pursue the endeavors of social justice and charity together. This, our common love for Christ in the physically or emotionally needy, would be an excellent point of social unity. Furthermore, it is our duty to do this anyway, and love for others is the greatest countermeasure to the divisive forces of sin. I hope I was able to give you complimentary information to this statement and hopefully give you substantial information on the thread topic in general.

God Bless,
Anthony

P.S., if it means anything to you, INFP ftw. If not, never mind.
 
Christian_Unity said:
Help me understand, why are some of you guys Catholic, Roman Catholic, Obl. OSB, Catholic from a certain rite, etc? I thought the Catholc Church was one. Are those who identified as Roman Catholic belong to a different church that those who identifed themselves as Catholic?
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To make it easy I am Roman Catholic. We believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ. He is like the CEO of the RCC!😃 His gets his orders from the Big Guy! Up there in heaven.😃
 
guanophore said:
Luther was never a bishop in the first place, though there were validly ordained bishops that left the CC during the Reformation.
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This is completely true, But kind of off the subject, but beings that the Bishops who left during the reformation we indeed valid were the Priest’s installed valid?
 
rinnie said:
This is completely true, But kind of off the subject, but beings that the Bishops who left during the reformation we indeed valid were the Priest’s installed valid?
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Unlike the Anglicans, I don’t believe the Catholic Church has ever addressed the case of the bishops who became Lutheran and ordained. At the very least, however, my guess is they would was illicit. The other issue would be form and intent.

GKC could probably be more precise.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Unlike the Anglicans, I don’t believe the Catholic Church has ever addressed the case of the bishops who became Lutheran and ordained. At the very least, however, my guess is they would was illicit. The other issue would be form and intent.

GKC could probably be more precise.

Jon
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Ony the priests they ordained would be valid, since Lutherans don’t ordain bishops.
 
What Jon has just said may be those my bishop instructor on ecumenism may have been referring to…that those who have bishops are considered in heading churches.

The Catholic Church cannot define ecclesial communities – those without a bishop and ordained priests by laying on of hands through apostolic succession – as having valid orders, and subsequently, not being defined as churches.

This is because we as Catholics only recognize those having authority as coming from Christ through the apostles. Now about the Scandinavian Lutheran bishops within this context, being Lutheran but not Catholic comes to another dilemna that needs to be addressed.

An ancient Early Church Father said you cannot have the Church without bishops, deacons, and priests. I heard that quoted on EWTN by Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers…
 
JonNC said:
Unlike the Anglicans, I don’t believe the Catholic Church has ever addressed the case of the bishops who became Lutheran and ordained. At the very least, however, my guess is they would was illicit. The other issue would be form and intent.

GKC could probably be more precise.

Jon
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I think you are correct, on all points.

GKC
 
GKC said:
I think you are correct, on all points.

GKC
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I guess we would find out if a Lutheran priest from one of these countries converted to the Catholic Church and wanted to join the priesthood. Would that person have to be re-ordained?

Jon
 
Ubenedictus said:
not very true,
only a valid bishop can validly ordain a priest. When king henry broke away forming the anglican communion, the bishops in that communion were all validly ordained, so they all had apostolic succession and valid sacrament. They were valid until the prayers for the consecration of bishops were changed, the prayer stoped short of actually ordaining a bishop, at that point d anglican communion was luthernise, so all the bishops install by the said prayer, were invalidly consecrated, the priest weren’t ordain to make the sacrificial eucharist that only is an arguement that the anglican church didn’t really intent to truly ordain priests. That arguement aside, the invalid bishops could only “ordain” invalid priests, and the line of the “invalids” went on.
It seem the said prayers were later corrected but by then all the valid bishops had died and the communion had lost apostolic succession.
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A bishop who received valid consecration can still ordain validly, though illicitly, even if he is declared heretical, schismatic, simonistic or excommunicated, assuming other requisite factors are valid . Again, see Ott, FUNDAMENTALS OF CATHOLIC DOGMA, p.458.

GKC
 
JonNC said:
I guess we would find out if a Lutheran priest from one of these countries converted to the Catholic Church and wanted to join the priesthood. Would that person have to be re-ordained?

Jon
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My bet is he would be ordained sub conditione, at best. I would love to see such a case.

GKC
 
GKC said:
My bet is he would be ordained sub conditione, at best. I would love to see such a case.

GKC
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likely not… possible, but unlikely. Probably be ordained normally.

I’ve not heard of Lutherans ordaining deacons, but looking online, I find the Porvoo Accord member Lutherans are essentially Anglican in their orders.

So, maybe, just maybe.
 
Aramis said:
likely not… possible, but unlikely. Probably be ordained normally.

I’ve not heard of Lutherans ordaining deacons, but looking online, I find the Porvoo Accord member Lutherans are essentially Anglican in their orders.

So, maybe, just maybe.
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By “best” I meant the best in the sense of recognizing any validity to the Scandinavian claims.

I would assume that all such would be done absolutely, in the real world.

GKC
 
GKC said:
By “best” I meant the best in the sense of recognizing any validity to the Scandinavian claims.

I would assume that all such would be done absolutely, in the real world.

GKC
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Even the best case is dubious, given the Lutheran Confessions.
 
Christian_Unity said:
I thought the Great Schism occurred way before the Protestant Reformation. There are a lot more sects, division, and denominations that I realized in Christendom. I still think there is only one body of Christ consisting of those whom God united to Christ which is not about the particular church that you attend. For me, being in union with Christ is quite different than being in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. Thanks for the education and I will continue to read your postings on this thread… but the more you guys posts, the more confused I get. From my theology, individuals are either united to Adam or they are united to Christ. Everybody needs faith in Christ.
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Hey Christian Unity. I believe the main reasons why people, like myself, choose to belong to the catholic church, as opposed to one of the non-catholic churches, is because they come to believe what the church teaches about the holy Eucharist, namely, the sacrifice of the Mass. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was a complete and perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God, offered once. However, as per the catholic church, Jesus continues to make that offering of Himself to His Father, (and will until His return) by the hands of the ministers conformed to Jesus’ one Priesthood, making the Mass, in my humble opinion, the highest form of prayer that can be offered up to the Father. Moreover, the Mass is the fulfilment of OT prophecy:

“For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation, for my name is great among the Gentiles, said the Lord of Hosts.”
Malachi 1:11
 
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