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Digitonomy
Guest
Can you tell me how ordination of deacons is relevant to Apostolic succession? I may be missing an angle here.
Why are some of you Catholic, Roman Catholc, Obl. OSB, etc
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CompSciGuy
Guest
No in no way are Catholic religious orders like Protestant denominations. Protestant denominations differ drastically from one another, have mutually exclusive and contradictory theologies and no clear or meaningful concept of authority. The Catholic Church is and always has been one. We are one in faith and baptism. The different religious orders are for those who possess different charismas. Those who are contemplative and mystics tend toward the Carmelites, those who seek God through poverty join the Franciscans, those who grow closer to God through work and prayer join the Benedictines, etc. Eastern Churches have their own rite but are still one with the western church in unity and under one authority.You guys are just like us Protestants.
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Aramis
Guest
only a validly ordained deacon is a valid candidate for presbyteral ordination.
only a validly ordained presbyter is a valid candidate for episcopal ordination.
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CompSciGuy
Guest
The difference is that the Catholic Church can validly and historically claim that it is the Church which Christ himself founded and whose ministry was passed down from the apostles. This is not boastful, it is truth. When the protestants broke away from the Catholic Church, they broke away from the Church which Jesus Christ founded. You can claim the existence of a sort of metaphysical invisible “unity” of believers to make up for that, but it doesn’t take away from the truth that 1. they are not in communion with the Church which Christ himself founded, and 2. they are not really in communion with each other because of the insanely wide variety of theology and doctrine among them. The Catholic Church is and always has been a visible sign of unity and a pillar of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) whereas sola scriptura is the breeding ground for heresies and the formation of thousands of protestant denominations. I am not saying this to be mean. If you think this is Christian unity, then it is no wonder there is so much confusion.I’d have to agree, however, for me, I see Catholics (Romans especially) boast that they are the “One True Church” and that others are heretical, or apostate, and that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. To me, this sound’s waaaay to much like Joseph Smith’s Mormon “church”.(Mormon Bruce R. McConkie said there was no salvation outside The Chuch of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints) There’s not a snowball’s chance in a microwave that I’d hook up with any group which makes such boastful claims. I will also agree that while there are many Protestant Churches, they (with the exception of “fringe groups”) all believe in Faith Alone, Grace Alone, Christ Alone, Glory to God Alone, and Scripture Alone. The various Protestant Churches are no different than the various Catholic groups. All have the same core beliefs, just different expressions of that same belief.
-Edited for spelling, and grammar errors
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Digitonomy
Guest
That is the current discipline, but if diaconal ordination is a doctrinal prerequisite for presbyterial ordination, I find it a little surprising. My understanding of the early Church is that unlike today, where deacons primarily assist priests in parishes (in addition to their diocesan obligations such as prison ministry, etc), early deacons primarily assisted the bishop, and the day to day “jobs” of presbyters and deacons may not have involved much interaction with each other. For this reason, it didn’t occur to me that the diaconate was a “natural” step for ordination to the priesthood. Certainly it was not a separate, earlier step prior to the ordination of the Apostles.
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Aramis
Guest
deacons were already in their present liturgical role by the 3rd century; by the 6th, sequencing is clearly given that the council’s set requirement by age …
Presbyter 30
Deacon 25
Subdeacon 20
this implies strongly progression from one to the next.
Given that the current requirement was set by multiple councils of the church as canons and reaffirmed by later ones, it is more than merely discipline.
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KathleenGee
Guest
The reality of the Church developing as it spreads to different cultures, different issues come up. Then there is the development…or civil wars among cultures…that likewise affect people’s world around them.
The Church is always present for its people to give them direction in coming to God, being the human face of Christ, the Good Shepherd.
The Church is a social institution. And like all other social institutions, works to develop itself in progression so as to be most beneficial and astute in serving the needs of people through ongoing self reformation of its administrative structures.
The ongoing problem with Protestants, is protesting this one part of whatever in the Church is not being done today like before, so therefore our ecclesial administration is not true.
The problem is taking things out of context and not knowing Church history and administration, seeing why actually things changed or developed, and going from one step to the next in context its the people…because, afterall, the Church exists to bring Christ to others, it does not exist for itself.
There is alot of bad faith in Church authority, and many times this issue is the reason people still hold on to being separate and not in full communion with Christ’s Church.
The Church is always present for its people to give them direction in coming to God, being the human face of Christ, the Good Shepherd.
The Church is a social institution. And like all other social institutions, works to develop itself in progression so as to be most beneficial and astute in serving the needs of people through ongoing self reformation of its administrative structures.
The ongoing problem with Protestants, is protesting this one part of whatever in the Church is not being done today like before, so therefore our ecclesial administration is not true.
The problem is taking things out of context and not knowing Church history and administration, seeing why actually things changed or developed, and going from one step to the next in context its the people…because, afterall, the Church exists to bring Christ to others, it does not exist for itself.
There is alot of bad faith in Church authority, and many times this issue is the reason people still hold on to being separate and not in full communion with Christ’s Church.
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Digitonomy
Guest
I don’t dispute that progression from one level of Holy Orders to another is a venerable and longstanding discipline. I merely doubt that it was always a requirement.
If it contradicts the practice of the early church, it cannot be doctrine.
Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find anything that directly addresses this in a brief search.
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Aramis
Guest
Wrong. Many beliefs that are now dogmatic were merely one of many theologumenia, which the Holy Spirit revealed to the councils as truth. Amongst them, papal infallibility, the assumption of Mary, the transubstantiation (vs consubstantiation), that the Holy Spirit is in fact a person of God, and not merely an emanating of the Father, that Christ had two natures.I don’t dispute that progression from one level of Holy Orders to another is a venerable and longstanding discipline. I merely doubt that it was always a requirement.If it contradicts the practice of the early church, it cannot be doctrine.
The Councils have continuously refined and narrowed what is acceptable… and many saints didn’t hold beliefs now requisite. St Moses certainly wouldn’t have believed in Christ having two natures during his earthly time… but that doesn’t make him a heretic, for Christ had yes to reveal himself to the Jews. Several saints held to consubstantiation, before the Church, in council, realized that the presence of Christ had to be a change more profound than a temporary in-dwelling of Christ’s presence.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Jesus said, “You are Peter and on this rock I will build what I must call my church.”
Church. Singular…not plural. There is only one Church, and it has a name…the name that its earliest members chose before the end of the first century…the Catholic Church. This is not opinion or preference. This is historical fact.
It is a pity that false religions mimic the true faith in order to gain some appearance of credibility, but that doesn’t detract from the truth of the Catholic faith…it just proves that Satan is very shrewd.
Really? You’re already a member of a religion which claims that Jesus is the only way to be saved. How offensive that sounds to non-believers. Catholics simply offend a slightly larger group…and you’re in that latter category.
True. However, these doctrines were not taught or believed by the Church prior to the 16th century…they are theological novelties not part of the apostolic tradition.
Incorrect. Protestant denominations do not agree on core issues such as infant baptism, the efficacy of baptism, the mode of baptism, the ordination of women, the presence (or lack) of Christ in the sacrament, the number of sacraments, etc.
Catholics have a variety of rites and disciplines, but they are united in their core beliefs. One only has to look to see whether these “groups” are in communion with the Pope or not.
This source of unity, the Papacy, demonstrates precisely why Jesus established Peter as the first shepherd of His flock. He knew without a visible head of the Church, the sheep would be scattered…as Protestantism demonstrates so perfectly.
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
OSB - you are referring to the Order of St Benedict perhaps?
Oblates = Obl
When you see letters after someone’s name, ex. CSSR, SJ are all under the one & same RCC umbrella including *different Orders *that have a distinct charism as in education, hospitals, orphanages, retirement homes, cemeteries, soup kitchens, out reach to poor & homeless, elderly, aids workers, you name it & they do it with no strings attached, in other words you DO NOT HAVE TO CONVERT to be a recipient of these services.
Redemptorists, Jesuits, Benedictines, Dominicans, Franciscans (been around 850 years?) to name a few have been around for centuries.
Jesuits founded by St Ignatius Loyola, massive in education & publishing are mostly scholars, speak a couple languages at the least, usually have at least one PHD, have 30+ universities in the USA not to mention the entire world. RCC is biggest educator on the planet.
Dominicans: founded by St Dominic serve the poor & have many hospitals, schools
Franciscans Founded by St Francis have many schools, hospitals especially EWTN network
Orders incorporate the Spiritual & Corporal works of Mercy, bringing the scriptures to life: Feed the hungry, tend the sick, bury the dead etc bringing Christ to the world.
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
Any baptized male can validly receive Holy Orders. Progression from one to the next is very ancient and legally required, but not necessary matter or form for the sacrament’s validity so far as I have ever read or heard from a credible authority.
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GKC
Guest
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Digitonomy
Guest
This is certainly true, but I said that doctrine couldn’t contradict early Church practice, not that it couldn’t contradict the theology of some in the early Church.
You claim it is a requirement for valid priestly ordination that the candidate be first ordained a deacon. I claim that in the early Church, it was the practice that men were ordained directly to the priesthood without first becoming deacons. While we each disagree with each other on those points, I think the more profound disagreement is that you think both could in theory be simultaneously true, while I think that only one or the other can possibly be true.
Otherwise, if both were true, the early Church was ordaining priests who were not truly priests. Mistakes happen, non-priests slip through the ordination process every so often due to error, but isn’t the Church protected from doctrinal error in the promulgation of its sacraments?
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Aramis
Guest
Only the Church as a whole, and only when united to the Pope, not individual bishops.
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CopticChristian
Guest
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CopticChristian
Guest
CU,
There are some that have a Catholic Monikor and do not represent what the CCC teaches so that is not correct.
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CopticChristian
Guest
CU,
You have chosen “catholic” that some do…but you do not strictly adhere to the Apostles Creed…
That Church is the same Church that Calvin departed from…the OHCAC is Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and Catholic East/West and all baptized in the Trinitarian Formula…
Your thinking seems to imply that there is a Protestant arm to the Catholic Church and I have explained before that without Apostolic Succession then you are from an ecclessial community.
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CopticChristian
Guest
CU,
What the Christ of the OHCAC did was found a Church that exists today as the OHCAC.
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