Why are some people so adamant that God does exist?

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Critical thinkers cannot accept such a poorly considered belief.
I mean this in absolutely the nicest way possible, but I think Saint Augustine and Thomas Aquinas might be better at critical thinking than you. Otherwise you would not be on CAF debating with us, for you would be busy promoting your 15th book. You are still working on your first.😃

There are many, many, many critical thinkers who accept Catholicism. To make such as statement is absurd.
 
If the cosmos had no beginning, i.e. it has always existed in some form or another, then there is no reason for its (and our) existence since it was never created.
You are inherently correct. However, what if we, at the level of “soul” came into existence after the stuff which formed the universe? With the right hypothetical initial conditions, such a phenomenon can be treated as an inevitable consequence of a accidental event, rather than by the deliberate creation of a very powerful creator.

This hypothesis has the advantage of removing the troublesome question, “Why?” from the conversation.

These hypotheses, when detailed, provide a reason for our existence as “soul” but not for its integration within bodies. However, that is easily managed in a different context.

At the top of this (vaguely described) chain of reasoning does lie the mysterious, uncaused existence of precursive forms. By any line of human reasoning, yours or mine included, something existed without cause.
Science is wrong in one of these two scenarios. Neither option has a chance of being scientifically proven some day. The existence of multiple dimensions fails to address the very beginning. There’s only one logical conclusion that fits.
You are correct about multiple dimensions. Similar concepts, such as a multiverse, or the opinion that life began elsewhere in the universe and seeded itself on earth, simply defer questions about the beginnings to a mysterious process that occurred somewhere that we cannot investigate, meaning that nitwit perfessers will make up whatever they want about it.

You are also correct about neither option being amenable to empirical investigation, but not about the “one logical conclusion that fits.” If you are referring to the traditional God concept, there are plenty of arguments within this thread showing that such a concept is not logical. It is merely declared to be logical by people of faith like yourself.

You have made the common mistake that the only logical choices are between hypotheses adopted by mainstream science and its camp followers, and those of basically Catholic metaphysics. There are other alternatives which fit the facts available much better. Mine is not the only such alternative-- it is simply my favorite.

The scenario I proposed earlier, detailed here and there on CAF in bits and pieces, leads to empirically provable conclusions. If correct the soul can be found by science, Other interesting possibilities follow.
 
There are many, many, many critical thinkers who accept Catholicism. To make such as statement is absurd.
I have to agree on this. I think all faiths, including atheism, are based on belief. No one really knows what the truth is. To say a critical thinker cannot accept Catholicism is just as absurd as saying the truth of Catholicism is a fact.
It’s all a matter of belief and there are critical thinkers on both sides.
 
It’s hard to tell on this board. When people say they actually believe that Jonas living in a fish really happened, I assume they’re being sarcastic too until I realized they are serious 😛
I know that some Catholics still spout fundamental beliefs that aren’t necessarily what Catholicism teaches, but don’t let that shape your belief of Catholicism.

Sent from inside a whale.
 
I mean this in absolutely the nicest way possible, but I think Saint Augustine and Thomas Aquinas might be better at critical thinking than you. Otherwise you would not be on CAF debating with us, for you would be busy promoting your 15th book. You are still working on your first.😃
A minor correction. My first book has been published long ago, and set a few odd but interesting publishing records. It is out of print but remains healthy on a lively internet used-book market. It has been translated into five languages and became a best seller in two foreign countries. Excerpts have been used in philosophy courses about the nature of consciousness, one as distant as Singapore. Pristine signed hardcover copies are priced around $60.

My current (second) book is finished and awaiting printing. The only hold up is that I cannot figure out how to re-size PDF files down to a 6x9 format.

In terms of comparative critical thinking, Aquinas could be as good, but he missed a few things which seemed obvious to me. I’m less impressed with Augustine.

However, I have two advantages over them.
  • Superior sources of information, access to physics knowledge, astronomy, and microbiology, which neither of those thinkers had. In order to derive an alternative theory of the beginnings, it was necessary to integrate all of this information.
  • More importantly, I seem to be what is called a “divergent thinker,” in that I am good at devising solutions to problems which others overlooked, and solving technical problems which were regarded as intractable. I’ve based an effective professional career on this ability alone.
My experience with other divergent thinkers suggests that they are less likely to hang onto opinions developed by others (beliefs) and less likely to regard outside agreement as important to their ideas. I.e: they are not influenced by consensus, and do not thrive in either church or academia, which are dominated by agreement.

Frankly, it is impossible to become completely detached from ideas one personally invents, and critical thinking in such areas is especially difficult. One must rely upon other such thinkers for analysis, and if they cannot be found, ideas must be subjected to ordinary non-critical thinkers anxious to criticize anything which does not fit their belief system.
There are many, many, many critical thinkers who accept Catholicism. To make such as statement is absurd.
Not as absurd as you might think. A person who is normally a critical thinker typically isolates those skills to areas in which he does not hold beliefs. I read something by a well regarded physicist, a devout Catholic, who declared that he had (metaphorically, of course) a little “switch” in his brain which he turned to one side when thinking about religion, and to another side when dealing with science.

Although quite young when I read this, it struck me as absurd even then. I entered college with the anticipation of doing better, or at least differently, and succeeded in applying the same thought processes to all subjects.

I have encountered many excellent scientists who believe in absurd notions like Darwinism and Big Bang theory, because these ideas represent beliefs in their minds, exactly as the Trinity, for example, is a belief in the minds of Catholics. There can be no critical thinking on beliefs. The human mind simply does not allow it.

Thus a true critical thinker cannot have beliefs.

You seem to belittle my presence on CAF. I find this forum essential to my work. I have been fortunate enough to find a few helpful critics here who have corrected parts of my book, Catholics who are genuinely open to alternative theistic ideas. Replying to a post or two is a fine cure for writer’s block. Even better, I get to experiment with different ways of explaining difficult (new) ideas, which is wonderful practice.

Moreover, writing is a solitary kind of confinement. Neither minds nor plants thrive well in a vacuum. A writer is unlikely to think of all possible objections to his ideas, but by presenting some of them here, I receive objections I’d not have thought of otherwise, and can address them in the book. The CAF’s resources, its format and its members, are a wonderful resource for anyone choosing to explore theological and philosophical ideas.
 
And exactly how many of these people, “claiming to be God,” have a following of more than 2.1 billion people 2000 years after being put to death. (Not a very good way to start a religion one would think, btw)
And Islam, a faith in many ways incompatible with Christianity, has 1.57 billion followers (and rising), now about 1,500 years after Muhammad walked the Earth. If it’s growth trend continues at this rate, it will become the most popular religion in the world by the middle of this century.

So is it about the God Who Was Man, or is it about the appeal to popularity? Because plenty of extinct or relatively unpopular religions have claimed the former. And the soon to be most popular religion in the world was founded by a man who was not God, merely a prophet.
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ManOnFire:
Are you asking about me specifically? Why am I Catholic?

The point I was trying to make about the danger of comparing beliefs is that some people will choose what feels good or what is expedient compared to what our modern media’s influence over the public deems to be tolerable, despite the fact that the modern media has no official position of authority.
I’m asking, how you get from Deism (the Prime Mover) to Catholicism (or any flavor of Christianity)? What’s the objective argument that makes the Christian God a superior choice to any God currently on offer (or any hypothetical God that isn’t)?
 
It’s hard to tell on this board. When people say they actually believe that Jonas living in a fish really happened, I assume they’re being sarcastic too until I realized they are serious 😛
By itself knowing that some one calls them self a Christian doesn’t tell you what their specific religious beliefs are. There’s various positions on what is literally true, what is metaphor, what’s applicable, and what can be discarded. There are even those that call themselves “Christian” that see Jesus as some one that didn’t literally exists.
 
By itself knowing that some one calls them self a Christian doesn’t tell you what their specific religious beliefs are. There’s various positions on what is literally true, what is metaphor, what’s applicable, and what can be discarded. There are even those that call themselves “Christian” that see Jesus as some one that didn’t literally exists.
Growing up Catholic so many years, I believed the Body/Blood of Christ was some sort of metaphor, and that everyone else assumed the same thing. It was only as a non-practicing Catholic adult that I found out that some people think it’s a literal thing.
 
And Islam, a faith in many ways incompatible with Christianity, has 1.57 billion followers (and rising), now about 1,500 years after Muhammad walked the Earth. If it’s growth trend continues at this rate, it will become the most popular religion in the world by the middle of this century.

So is it about the God Who Was Man, or is it about the appeal to popularity? Because plenty of extinct or relatively unpopular religions have claimed the former. And the soon to be most popular religion in the world was founded by a man who was not God, merely a prophet.
Wait! Ask yourself how many of the 2 billion Christians actually practice their faith. Christians are mainly in North/South America and Europe. Europe has about 750 million people. Most European countries are Christian but Europe has a much higher rate of non-practicing Christians compared to South America. I wouldn’t be surprised if not even 1.5 billion people(or less) are actually practicing Christians. Muslims are often more religious than many Christians. In Germany most Turkish immigrants are practicing Muslims. I hardly know any Germans who are practicing Christians. I also lived in Paris, Brussels, Italy and London. Many people I knew were some how spiritual, more interested in Buddhism or didn’t really practice any religion.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s already equal.
 
Wait! Ask yourself how many of the 2 billion Christians actually practice their faith. Christians are mainly in North/South America and Europe. Europe has about 750 million people. Most European countries are Christian but Europe has a much higher rate of non-practicing Christians compared to South America. I wouldn’t be surprised if not even 1.5 billion people(or less) are actually practicing Christians. Muslims are often more religious than. In Germany most Turkish immigrants are practicing Muslims. I hardly know any Germans who are practicing Christians.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s already equal.
Possibly. Either way, the appeal to popularity as a measure of truth and existence of Man-God as a measure of truth are both non-sequiturs.
 
Possibly. Either way, the appeal to popularity as a measure of truth and existence of Man-God as a measure of truth are both non-sequiturs.
Exactly. I just wanted to add this because Catholics often like to emphasize how many Christians there are as “proof” that Christianity must be right then. If throughout history Christianity hadn’t been used for political reasons, who knows if it would still exist.
 
A minor correction. My first book has been published long ago, and set a few odd but interesting publishing records. It is out of print but remains healthy on a lively internet used-book market. It has been translated into five languages and became a best seller in two foreign countries. Excerpts have been used in philosophy courses about the nature of consciousness, one as distant as Singapore. Pristine signed hardcover copies are priced around $60.

.
I will seriously consider buying your first book. I thought you hand’t published one yet. I apologize if I offended you, which I know I didn’t because I said that on another thread and you said that you are to ornery to be offended. 🙂

What is your first book called? Also does JDaniel know this? I bet he would buy it too.

And I am not belittling CAF. I am not a well known author and I assume that almost all other people on here aren’t either. For example, I doubt Dawkins or Hawking have secret CAF accounts. Maybe they do, but I highly doubt it.

The problem I do have is that you are coming to CAF with an idea based on physics. We have many people on here with PhDs in Theology, but the population of those with a strong physics background is not great. There has to be physics forums out there for you to discuss your ideas. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy everyone who comes to this forum, but I wouldn’t go to a physics forum to discuss God, and people wouldn’t come here asking for medical advice. I know you believe in Heterodoxical (sp) theism, but you never argue for it or say why we are wrong. I feel like most of your debates come down to, “you are wrong because I am right.” I will read your book when I get a chance, however, and then I will discuss your theory with you.
 
My point was that there are a million options to choose from. Christianity is just one theory of many.
There are a million options to choose from but any option is superior to sheer negativity!
At least you have something to defend, build upon and modify if necessary.

Nothing shall come of nothing…
 
You are inherently correct. However, what if we, at the level of “soul” came into existence after the stuff which formed the universe? With the right hypothetical initial conditions, such a phenomenon can be treated as an inevitable consequence of a accidental event, rather than by the deliberate creation of a very powerful creator.

This hypothesis has the advantage of removing the troublesome question, “Why?” from the conversation.

These hypotheses, when detailed, provide a reason for our existence as “soul” but not for its integration within bodies. However, that is easily managed in a different context.

At the top of this (vaguely described) chain of reasoning does lie the mysterious, uncaused existence of precursive forms. By any line of human reasoning, yours or mine included, something existed without cause.

You are correct about multiple dimensions. Similar concepts, such as a multiverse, or the opinion that life began elsewhere in the universe and seeded itself on earth, simply defer questions about the beginnings to a mysterious process that occurred somewhere that we cannot investigate, meaning that nitwit perfessers will make up whatever they want about it.

You are also correct about neither option being amenable to empirical investigation, but not about the “one logical conclusion that fits.” If you are referring to the traditional God concept, there are plenty of arguments within this thread showing that such a concept is not logical. It is merely declared to be logical by people of faith like yourself.

You have made the common mistake that the only logical choices are between hypotheses adopted by mainstream science and its camp followers, and those of basically Catholic metaphysics. There are other alternatives which fit the facts available much better. Mine is not the only such alternative-- it is simply my favorite.

The scenario I proposed earlier, detailed here and there on CAF in bits and pieces, leads to empirically provable conclusions. If correct the soul can be found by science, Other interesting possibilities follow.
Pretend humans never developed souls. How would that change my argument about the beginning of the cosmos? It wouldn’t. I would argue that the existence of the human soul is more evidence of the existence of God, since we could not even ponder this question or debate it on the internet if we never developed a soul. We would be like plants. The cosmos could still be here if we had no souls, only with no one capable of wondering why.

Your alternative hypotheses are fun to consider, but they still fail to reconcile how the cosmos could naturally evolve from nothing. As long as conditions “exist,” then something already exists, and you haven’t traveled back far enough to reach the very beginning in order to answer the question. You stated earlier in the thread that it’s absurd to believe that the cosmos has always existed with no beginning. Your soul hypothesis is ancillary to whether or not the cosmos had a beginning.
 
I’m asking, how you get from Deism (the Prime Mover) to Catholicism (or any flavor of Christianity)? What’s the objective argument that makes the Christian God a superior choice to any God currently on offer (or any hypothetical God that isn’t)?
Eucharist.
 
Wait! Ask yourself how many of the 2 billion Christians actually practice their faith. Christians are mainly in North/South America and Europe. Europe has about 750 million people. Most European countries are Christian but Europe has a much higher rate of non-practicing Christians compared to South America. I wouldn’t be surprised if not even 1.5 billion people(or less) are actually practicing Christians. Muslims are often more religious than many Christians. In Germany most Turkish immigrants are practicing Muslims. I hardly know any Germans who are practicing Christians. I also lived in Paris, Brussels, Italy and London. Many people I knew were some how spiritual, more interested in Buddhism or didn’t really practice any religion.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s already equal.
It would be fascinating to impose modern society on some third world nations, then watch how they lose their religions.

As an aside, does anyone know what a statistician would say about the probability of a religion being correct based on the number of people subscribing to a particular religion? I assume the odds change with the numbers.
 
Yeah…still not an answer.
Did you see my answer to that question earlier? And obviously it can’t convince those who do not believe it happened, but to those who believe that the Gospels are historically accurate, it is compelling.

It is halfway down on my link. I don’t know how to directly link it to my post.
 
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