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DaveEucharist
Guest
What confuses me is their attitude towards outsiders and leaving their comfort zone. Iâm not espousing the use of all technologies. Heck, I personally dislike facebook, only watch two TV shows (on Hulu), etc.
Itâs like some of the things they do seems to be for show and has little scriptural basis. They supposedly believe in their own denomination? OK, so why be so isolated?
Really, it seems like everything they do and donât do is for show. âOh look at is in our buggees we are so special because we are so different. Forget education beyond the 8th grade lets just work work work until our hands became hard.â
Time to assimilate a little more. Itâs not the 19th century anymore.
I respect them as people, but there is no need to respect or even admire their general lifestyle.
Do any of them even use the internet or try to learn about other religions/atheism, etc.
Iâm ex-atheist, and wouldnât be Catholic without the luxuries of learning.
Calculus, organic chemistry, medicine, all above 8th grade. Who needs all that useless stuff since God left us 19th century technologies and hard work?
Itâs like some of the things they do seems to be for show and has little scriptural basis. They supposedly believe in their own denomination? OK, so why be so isolated?
Really, it seems like everything they do and donât do is for show. âOh look at is in our buggees we are so special because we are so different. Forget education beyond the 8th grade lets just work work work until our hands became hard.â
Time to assimilate a little more. Itâs not the 19th century anymore.
I respect them as people, but there is no need to respect or even admire their general lifestyle.
Do any of them even use the internet or try to learn about other religions/atheism, etc.
Iâm ex-atheist, and wouldnât be Catholic without the luxuries of learning.
Calculus, organic chemistry, medicine, all above 8th grade. Who needs all that useless stuff since God left us 19th century technologies and hard work?
J
Jerusha
Guest
They have the right to make that choice, and we have the responsibility to help those who leave the Amish community to get an education, so that they can live in the âEnglishâ world. A tough situation. The Mennonites are probably better at taking them in than we are. But we have Amish here, with few Mennonites.
J
JRKH
Guest
Well I guess you wonât be considering becoming Amish thenâŚ
All I can really say is that the ones Iâve met are not âisolatedâ. They are quite friendly and seem to be genuinely happy.
As for âassimilatingââŚAre you saying they should assimilate more into the general society or that they should assimilate more technology into their livesâŚ
I kind of agree about education. Iâm not sure what â8th gradeâ education means to an AmishâŚI know that we covered more in 8th grade when I was in school than they do nowâŚAND you were expected to know it.
I have wondered if it would be possible for an Amish group to establish themselves in a manner different from the agrarian model that they normally use. Many do run small businesses, baking, furniture, quilting, skid and pallet makers etcâŚ
Who knows, as economics change we might see the Amish adapt certainly they have adapted before.
Peace
James
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DaveEucharist
Guest
No. Converted to Catholicism here at 17, left, came back etc. Iâm 26 now. Sometimes I am reluctantly Catholic but thatâs OK since being happy all the time and having warm fuzzy feelings isnât required. What I mean about reluctant is I had to give up (or lessen) certain luxuries and pleasures as a Catholic. In the end, itâs not just because âthe Church says soâ but I see it all makes sense in a secular way. The truth isnât always pleasurable.Well I guess you wonât be considering becoming Amish thenâŚ
All I can really say is that the ones Iâve met are not âisolatedâ. They are quite friendly and seem to be genuinely happy.
As for âassimilatingââŚAre you saying they should assimilate more into the general society or that they should assimilate more technology into their livesâŚ
I kind of agree about education. Iâm not sure what â8th gradeâ education means to an AmishâŚI know that we covered more in 8th grade when I was in school than they do nowâŚAND you were expected to know it.
I have wondered if it would be possible for an Amish group to establish themselves in a manner different from the agrarian model that they normally use. Many do run small businesses, baking, furniture, quilting, skid and pallet makers etcâŚ
Who knows, as economics change we might see the Amish adapt certainly they have adapted before.
Peace
James
As a CatholicâŚitâs not sinful for me to
-assimilate with the general public, talk to people outside my religion, etcâŚafter allâŚwe are in the world but not of it. The Amish seem to be both not of it and outside of it.
-enjoy a six figure salary. Yes. I treat myself to nice things, fly first class across the world, see operas, etc. I still give to the poor etc. Iâm not going to go work in a farm somewhere and give all or most of my money to my parentsâŚyeah that is an Amish practice.
-enjoy luxuries. We only live once.
-Go to parties/clubs, etcâŚyeah maybe slightly surrounded by at least venial sinâŚbut I avoid itâŚbe in the world but not of itâŚi can still have fun without being locked upâŚChrist ate and drank with tax collectorsâŚetc
The Amish just need to get a grip.
J
JRKH
Guest
Itâs good to read such stories. Yes, when one really looks into the Churchâs teachings, they do make wonderful sense.
I donât know how many Amish you have personally met and spoken with but I have met several and in each case they had no problem talking with me (people outside of their religion).
Perhaps the reason you feel that they are, âboth not of it and outside ofâ, the world is because their lifestyle causes them to stand out. Of course a Catholic Brother or a Nun wearing their orderâs habit will also âstand outâ. Do these people also need to âAssimilate moreâ? Just something to considerâŚ
Well I must say Iâve never been âtemptedâ by a six figure income.
As for working on a farm, well Iâm sure that you are glad that somebody chooses to do that, otherwise you donât eat. I know something (a little) about farms and such. It can be a very good life with advantages most âsix figure incomeâ people do not get to enjoy very often, if at all.
Finally - monetary practices vary from family to family. When my mother was young, single and living at home she had to give her salary to her parents and she got an allowance from them. There was little enough money to go around at that time (the Depression) and her dad worked hard as did her mother. Household income was pooled.
Itâs not like she was in some sort of bondage and they were out âclubbingâ every night.
Now this was a Catholic family. And this practice was not uncommon among those who had little.
Even today, while it is less common for children to turn over their money to their parents, it is common for working children to pay ârentâ, or âboardâ or whatever - that is to contribute to their own âkeepâ.
Yes Jesus did eat and drink with tax collectors.
Honestly Dave, I struggle with some of this ânot being sinfulâ. Probably because I was never much drawn to âclubs and partiesâ etc, or to operas or expensive plays. Yet I see you write here what you earn, enjoy and do etc while I live on social security and struggle to take care of my wife (Alzheimerâs) and pay our heating bill.
Of course you donât owe me anything and my feelings in this regard perhaps ARE sinfulâŚthey smack of envy. I am no paragon of virtue and in my sinful past I was oblivious to many times and ways that I could have given more to help others.
Forgive my griping here. I am happy that you are doing so well in your life and career.
I think the Amish DO have a grip. It is simply a different grip than yours.
Perhaps it would be a good idea for you to take some time to truly get to know these people. Much of what you write seems very âthird handâ. Talk to people who are happy to be Amish, not just those on the outside looking in. Then you will have a more balanced view.
Peace
James
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JustaServant
Guest
How do you propose this to be accomplished? Through government mandate?
The wonderful thing about America is people have a right to their culture and way of life.
J
JRKH
Guest
This is true.
One of the sad things to me is the loss of a lot of our cultural, regional, religious identities.
This seems to be due largely to the homogenizing effects of mass media. 100 years ago America was much more regionally and culturally diverse in language, music and customs.
Peace
James
J
Jerusha
Guest
The Amish are always friendly, and willing to give a smile and a wave as they clip-clop by. When they are selling stuff at farmerâs markets, they are still friendly. They know that their unusual garb is off-putting to bigoted people, but those who are willing to interact in a friendly way are not likely to challenge their lifestyle.
Their philosophy can be illustrated by this. I asked one woman about canning. Would it be better to put the boiling salsa into jars, or let it cool, fill the jars and put the lids on and then boil the jars? She guided me to an answer that I followed through with, and it was actually easier.
Their philosophy can be illustrated by this. I asked one woman about canning. Would it be better to put the boiling salsa into jars, or let it cool, fill the jars and put the lids on and then boil the jars? She guided me to an answer that I followed through with, and it was actually easier.
T
tomarin
Guest
Just a side note: the Pennsylvania Dutch, of which the Amish were at one time only a small minority, continued to speak their dialect of German well into the 20th century. What did it in was public education, modern communications media (radio, tv) and I believe, anti-German sentiment during the two World Wars.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Just today I noticed at least two people paying more attention to their cellphones than the road in front of them. One guy in front of me was weaving all over the road while he was texting.
And its the Amish that need to get a grip?
S
Stephen_W
Guest
A few things have been bothering me about this post, and I just would like to get them off my chest.
We humans like to group things and/or people into classifications, to help us relate to, whatever, either negatively or positively. We judge the whole based on part. This is called stereotyping. We all do it, if weâre honest weâll admit it. For example, my people have very simular worship services as the Amish, very formal and reverant with a prescibed dress code for members (plain suit for men, no tie and collars buttoned; cape dress for women, with black stockings and prayer coverings). The first time I went to Mass, I saw people in jeans and tee shirts, shorts and sandels, eating, talking in the pews all throughout the service. On that experience, I could judge all Catholics to be very casual (i.e. uncaring) toward Mass and what that represents, and irreverant. Some of you may be cringing at that last statement. Intellectually, I knew that probably wasnât true, but emotionally and empiracally it was true to that experience.
Before someone says we shouldnât judge at all, let me say bull hockey! We all make judgements, everyday. You are judging my words right now. We are to judge actions and statements. What we should not do is presume Godâs place, and judge others hearts.
I have been told on this forum not to judge Catholicism based on Catholics. Okay, I get the point. But like it or not, we are all representives of whatever group or demographic we belong to, willingly or unwillingly. If you are a Catholic, you do represent Catholicism to non-Catholics around you. If you are Baptist, you represent that demonination to those around you. If a Catholic and a Baptist were to travel to, say a Muslim country, they collectively would represent Christianity. If those traveling companions were English teenagers they would also represent both England and western youth to those around them. Individuality really means little to an onlooker until they get to know that individual in relationship to thier preconcieved stereotype.
Anabaptist groups teach submision to authority. St. Paul wrote that women are to submit to thier husbands and husbands are to love thier wifes, as Jesus loves the Church. When practiced through and with love of Christ, it is a beatiful picture of the Church. Would be curious to know what the CC teaches on the subject. Unfortunately, abuses can and do occur. The human tendency, is to try and hide the abuse, sometime with a sincere desire to just aviod having the name of Jesus smeared in the community. That leads to a culture of secercy that allows abuse to continue dispite internal attempts to stop it. Kinda like the child sex scandal that is plaguing the Catholic Church. An humble reminder to all of us of the consequences of trying to hid sin.
Amish and other conservative Anabaptist groups do not (largely) beleive God would have us all live with â19th century technologyâ. Instead, they as a group evaluate how each piece of modern technology would effect thier livesyle and relationships, all with the idea of keeping family and church at the center of thier lives. Each group then decides what to accept and what to reject. The belief is, as a âpilgrimâ people who are only in this world for a short time, and that as a witness to unbelievers, simplicity and modesty are the rule.
It is often said within my group, that where ever you drawn a line or make a boundary, some one can come along and ridicule it.
We could do a whole thread on the subject of clothing, and uniform dress. Can we just say, that if clothing were really not that important, scripture would be silent on the issue and the fashion industry would be bust.
On the topic of education, conservative anabaptist group usually end formal schooling between 8th and 10th grade. Public education is usually avioded, atleast since the early 60âs. Education is focused on what is needful, in the view of the defining group, for the child to be able to function within the society. Although there is a general appreciation for doctors and lawyers etc., higher education is discouraged or outright disallowed due to the tendency of collages and universities to be humanistic and atheistic. The view of work is it should be good for the mind, body and soul; and done with a servant heart. Leisure time should likewise be kept in balance, be honoring to God, and refreshing to the soul. Honestly, when was the last time you felt refreshed and closer to God after a night of âclubbingâ?
Are there not Saints within the CC who have chosen to live auster lives in order to be more Holy? Are they not admired for how they lived, even if you personal do not want to duplicate thier lifestyle? If you think of the Old Orders in that light, it is easier to appreciate and learn from thier positive points. There is certainly many things to disagree with in thier practice and theology, but lets not be uncharitible toward them.
Just as there are many poorly or even un-catechized Catholics within the Church, there are many Anabaptist who do not know or understand what thier group teaches. They remain Amish, or Mennonite or even Catholic because that is the way they were raised, not because of any personal conviction. These people represent thier group badly, which leads to negative stereotypes. How about (in love) challenging them about what they believe or pratice, and why? Perhaps you could provide the spark the brings them to a fuller communion with Christ. Or perhaps they could encourage you on your spiritual walk. Who knows what means God will use? I know a man who says he never learned more about theology then when he had to work closly with an athiest who would question him about his beliefs.
Just my two cent.
peace,
Stephen
We humans like to group things and/or people into classifications, to help us relate to, whatever, either negatively or positively. We judge the whole based on part. This is called stereotyping. We all do it, if weâre honest weâll admit it. For example, my people have very simular worship services as the Amish, very formal and reverant with a prescibed dress code for members (plain suit for men, no tie and collars buttoned; cape dress for women, with black stockings and prayer coverings). The first time I went to Mass, I saw people in jeans and tee shirts, shorts and sandels, eating, talking in the pews all throughout the service. On that experience, I could judge all Catholics to be very casual (i.e. uncaring) toward Mass and what that represents, and irreverant. Some of you may be cringing at that last statement. Intellectually, I knew that probably wasnât true, but emotionally and empiracally it was true to that experience.
Before someone says we shouldnât judge at all, let me say bull hockey! We all make judgements, everyday. You are judging my words right now. We are to judge actions and statements. What we should not do is presume Godâs place, and judge others hearts.
I have been told on this forum not to judge Catholicism based on Catholics. Okay, I get the point. But like it or not, we are all representives of whatever group or demographic we belong to, willingly or unwillingly. If you are a Catholic, you do represent Catholicism to non-Catholics around you. If you are Baptist, you represent that demonination to those around you. If a Catholic and a Baptist were to travel to, say a Muslim country, they collectively would represent Christianity. If those traveling companions were English teenagers they would also represent both England and western youth to those around them. Individuality really means little to an onlooker until they get to know that individual in relationship to thier preconcieved stereotype.
Anabaptist groups teach submision to authority. St. Paul wrote that women are to submit to thier husbands and husbands are to love thier wifes, as Jesus loves the Church. When practiced through and with love of Christ, it is a beatiful picture of the Church. Would be curious to know what the CC teaches on the subject. Unfortunately, abuses can and do occur. The human tendency, is to try and hide the abuse, sometime with a sincere desire to just aviod having the name of Jesus smeared in the community. That leads to a culture of secercy that allows abuse to continue dispite internal attempts to stop it. Kinda like the child sex scandal that is plaguing the Catholic Church. An humble reminder to all of us of the consequences of trying to hid sin.
Amish and other conservative Anabaptist groups do not (largely) beleive God would have us all live with â19th century technologyâ. Instead, they as a group evaluate how each piece of modern technology would effect thier livesyle and relationships, all with the idea of keeping family and church at the center of thier lives. Each group then decides what to accept and what to reject. The belief is, as a âpilgrimâ people who are only in this world for a short time, and that as a witness to unbelievers, simplicity and modesty are the rule.
It is often said within my group, that where ever you drawn a line or make a boundary, some one can come along and ridicule it.
We could do a whole thread on the subject of clothing, and uniform dress. Can we just say, that if clothing were really not that important, scripture would be silent on the issue and the fashion industry would be bust.
On the topic of education, conservative anabaptist group usually end formal schooling between 8th and 10th grade. Public education is usually avioded, atleast since the early 60âs. Education is focused on what is needful, in the view of the defining group, for the child to be able to function within the society. Although there is a general appreciation for doctors and lawyers etc., higher education is discouraged or outright disallowed due to the tendency of collages and universities to be humanistic and atheistic. The view of work is it should be good for the mind, body and soul; and done with a servant heart. Leisure time should likewise be kept in balance, be honoring to God, and refreshing to the soul. Honestly, when was the last time you felt refreshed and closer to God after a night of âclubbingâ?
Are there not Saints within the CC who have chosen to live auster lives in order to be more Holy? Are they not admired for how they lived, even if you personal do not want to duplicate thier lifestyle? If you think of the Old Orders in that light, it is easier to appreciate and learn from thier positive points. There is certainly many things to disagree with in thier practice and theology, but lets not be uncharitible toward them.
Just as there are many poorly or even un-catechized Catholics within the Church, there are many Anabaptist who do not know or understand what thier group teaches. They remain Amish, or Mennonite or even Catholic because that is the way they were raised, not because of any personal conviction. These people represent thier group badly, which leads to negative stereotypes. How about (in love) challenging them about what they believe or pratice, and why? Perhaps you could provide the spark the brings them to a fuller communion with Christ. Or perhaps they could encourage you on your spiritual walk. Who knows what means God will use? I know a man who says he never learned more about theology then when he had to work closly with an athiest who would question him about his beliefs.
Just my two cent.
peace,
Stephen
J
Jerusha
Guest
Stephen, that warms my heart. When the founders, and their original followers, of a religion sincerely want to know God and do as Jesus would have them to do, they lay a good foundation for their church.
That is why some churches end up with something remarkably like Catholicism, and why some Catholics end up forgetting people like Athanasius and Irenaneus, (Sp?), and works like the Didache, and the warnings in Revelation
and
at the same timeâŚ
That is why some churches end up with something remarkably like Catholicism, and why some Catholics end up forgetting people like Athanasius and Irenaneus, (Sp?), and works like the Didache, and the warnings in Revelation
and at the same timeâŚ
V
vsedriver
Guest
They are not showing off for anyone. If you live near an Amish community there are few âtouristsâ around. There are tourist areas where people go to see Amish arts and crafts or buy Amish made products but the real Amish community is off the beaten path. Most of the tourist type places are not run by Amish. They just dress like the Amish for the tourists.
Why should anyone have to assimilate? In the 60s it was fashionable to drop out. Living off the grid has a lot of advantages.
There is no need to respect or admire anyoneâs lifestyle unless it is the lifestyle of a saint. But like any religious community, they have good and bad people. Their lifestyle is better than some I know of.
They have plenty of time to READ. Something few people with a formal education actually do. So you do find well read Amish with decent educations. But they gear their educations toward practical things. I recently shared with my Amish harness maker a new book on harnessing horses to produce peak performance. He was very, very interested and even modified his harness design. So I wish people would stop acting like a lot of âbook learningâ makes you smarter than someone with practical knowledge.
J
JRKH
Guest
J
JRKH
Guest
:doh2:
How many times have we read here about the importance of slowing down, of silence, of being âstillâ so that we can better hear the Lord?
How many times have we lamented the noise and âbusy-nessâ and ârunning aroundâ of modern lifeâŚ
The Amish lifestyle certainly affords many advantages in this.
Peace
James
J
JRKH
Guest
Agree. It is a sad thing when we have to say âdonât judge Catholicism by Catholicsâ, for as you say - Catholicism (indeed ANY â-ismâ) is naturally represented to others by those who claim to profess it.
Indeed.
In regards to what the Church teaches on marriage. The sacrament of Matrimony is addressed HERE in the catechism. and also HERE beginning at paragraph 46.
Stephen,
Youâve given much more than 2 cents worth here. Thank you very much, and may God bless you abundantly.
Peace
James
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Stephen_W
Guest
Sorry, James, with my 8th grade education I donât know if I can make change!
Youâve given much more than 2 cents worth here. Thank you very much, and may God bless you abundantly.
Peace
James
Stephen
J
JRKH
Guest
My dad had an 8th grade education and could make change better and faster than most high school kids todayâŚThey learned to do stuff in their headsâŚSorry, James, with my 8th grade education I donât know if I can make change!
Stephen
Peace
James
D
DaveEucharist
Guest
There is no way around it. It is ridiculous to discourage higher education for purposes of sheltering people from the oh so evil world out there. Whatever.
Humanistic and Atheist undergraduate (university/four year colleges) institutions? You can still be Christian and attend a secular school. I completed my undergraduate degree at an Ivy League institution and there was plenty of religious freedom, including a very active Catholic population (daily Mass, Adoration, Rosary, etc). You can be Christian and expect the world to tailor its ways to you. Why not encourage education (undergraduate) to those who want it and allow them to âfight the good fightâ per se in school?
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