Why are the New Age movement and other exotic ideas so attractive?

[Ahimsa]

Ok, no argument. Our LORD breathed after HIS resurrection (John 20:22)

Right. Jesus had been in His physical resurrection body, living on earth, so He breathed air. But when He descended into Hades, a spiritual realm, He did it in a spiritual body.

I’ve been in several Christian denominations, and there are indeed strong divergences of doctrine. But one thing they all have in common is the Nicaean creed, which expressly anticipates a bodily resurrection.

Yes, the Nicaean creed may say that, but how that is interpreted in the pews, is a different story.

I would imagine that one could not be a Buddhist without accepting reincarnation.

One need not “accept” reincarnation in order to be a Buddhist, if by “accept” you mean “intellectually understand that reincarnation is true, even if one has no direct experience of reincarnation”. But, a Buddhist (I would argue) would do well to not summarily reject reincarnation just because he or she does not have any direct experience of it.

Likewise, even if someone were to call himself Christian, even if he had leadership of a church body, he would not BE a Christian if he rejected the bodily resurrection. Why? Because the Christ that person believed in would NOT be the Christ who rose bodily.

Jesus said, to Thomas, “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.” Jesus did not say, “Cursed are those who interpret the resurrection in different ways; they are not to be called Christian”.

 

[GEddie]

One can go back to those who first taught, but that doesn’t mean that they fully understood all of the ramifications of a particular idea. Nor does it mean that “we” today fully understand all of the ramifications.

Those “ramifications” are no more than mental gaming. Our LORD taught resurrection as something extremely simple; a dead human being resuming his/her aliveness. And that is what HE achieved.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Ahimsa]

Say what thing?

You said that those peopel who hold to 4 and 5 are not Christians, according to the Bible. Where does the Bible say such a thing?

 

[benedictus2]

Right. Jesus had been in His physical resurrection body, living on earth, so He breathed air. But when He descended into Hades, a spiritual realm, He did it in a spiritual body.

Was it ever claimed that Jesus was already resurrected when He descended into Hades?

Yes, the Nicaean creed may say that, but how that is interpreted in the pews, is a different story.

And that is all beside the point because unlike Hinduism, Christianity does not allow for interpretation on the pews on major doctrinal matters.

Whatever modifications to the true teaching comes now because of influences from New Age and Eastern Religions are not Christian.

 

[Ahimsa]

Those “ramifications” are no more than mental gaming. Our LORD taught resurrection as something extremely simple; a dead human being resuming his/her aliveness.

It’s not really that simple, because, if it were that simple, you would agree that reincarnation (“a dead human being resuming his/her aliveness”) is compatible with resurrection (“a dead human being resuming his/her aliveness”).

I think you would agree that your idea of resurrection is much more complex than that.

 

[benedictus2]

You said that those peopel who hold to 4 and 5 are not Christians, according to the Bible. Where does the Bible say such a thing?

No what I said was teaching 4 & 5 are not according to the Bible. And that is exactly my point, the Bible claims no such thing.

 

[GEddie]

It’s not really that simple, because, if it were that simple, you would agree that reincarnation (“a dead human being resuming his/her aliveness”) is compatible with resurrection (“a dead human being resuming his/her aliveness”).

I think you would agree that your idea of resurrection is much more complex than that.

No; no; 10,000 times no!!! A dead human being does not resume aliveness by reincarnation; the mind disappears; a new being emerges. Whereas in resurrection, the same old human being comes out of the darkness of death (albeit as a renewed body, pneumatikon soma).

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Ahimsa]

Was it ever claimed that Jesus was already resurrected when He descended into Hades?

He had not yet been physically bodily resurrected when He descended into Hades. But His spiritual body was still active and alive.

And that is all beside the point because unlike Hinduism, Christianity does not allow for interpretation on the pews on major doctrinal matters.

Well, that depends upon who is defining what is a “major doctrinal matter”.

Whatever modifications to the true teaching comes now because of influences from New Age and Eastern Religions are not Christian.

So you’re saying that every Christian who has a “new idea” on traditional Christian teaching, is being influenced by New Agers and Asian religions?

 

[benedictus2]

GEddie:

Likewise, even if someone were to call himself Christian, even if he had leadership of a church body, he would not BE a Christian if he rejected the bodily resurrection. Why? Because the Christ that person believed in would NOT be the Christ who rose bodily.

Jesus said, to Thomas, “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.” Jesus did not say, “Cursed are those who interpret the resurrection in different ways; they are not to be called Christian”.

Huh! And how exactly is that supposed to rebut GEddie post?

“Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe”. What do you think is this thing that those who have not seen believe and for which they are blessed?

 

[Ahimsa]

No what I said was teaching 4 & 5 are not according to the Bible. And that is exactly my point, the Bible claims no such thing.

The Bible does not include a lot ideas that Christians nowadays take for granted. So, I agree that the Bible doesn’t explicitly mention 4 and 5, but that’s not a slam-dunk argument against 4 and 5.

 

[Ahimsa]

No; no; 10,000 times no!!! A dead human being does not resume aliveness by reincarnation; the mind disappears…

I think you misunderstand reincarnation. In reincarnation, the mind does not disappear.

 

[benedictus2]

He had not yet been physically bodily resurrected when He descended into Hades. But His spiritual body was still active and alive.

The resurrection was of the Physical Body. His spirit never died so one cannot speak of a resurrection of the Spirit.

Well, that depends upon who is defining what is a “major doctrinal matter”.

There again is your relativism. Sorry, but that does not apply. Even if you want to limit that to just the Scripture, one cannot be relative about that.

So you’re saying that every Christian who has a “new idea” on traditional Christian teaching, is being influenced by New Agers and Asian religions?

Pray tell where exactly did I say that?

 

[Ahimsa]

Huh! And how exactly is that supposed to rebut GEddie post?

“Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe”. What do you think is this thing that those who have not seen believe and for which they are blessed?

Notice that Jesus did not say that those who don’t believe, should not be called Christians. In fact, Jesus did not say anything about those who don’t believe. He only addressed those who believed, and called them blessed.

 

[benedictus2]

The Bible does not include a lot ideas that Christians nowadays take for granted. So, I agree that the Bible doesn’t explicitly mention 4 and 5, but that’s not a slam-dunk argument against 4 and 5.

If it aint there, it aint there full stop.

 

[Ahimsa]

The resurrection was of the Physical Body. His spirit never died so one cannot speak of a resurrection of the Spirit.So, you’re saying Jesus didn’t really die?

 

[rinnie]

I’ve already responded to this thread but I thought of something else I’d like to add. I think it’s a given that at some point many people will become dissatisfied with the traditions that they were raised in, so they go out seeking for something that does fit their needs. Sometimes, they might find it in one of the other “established” traditions, or they might find it in an eclectic mix of many traditions (like the New Age movement). At some point, they might eventually return to the religion of their parents, or they might not.

I know it’s probably difficult for a devout Catholic to understand how anyone could be dissatisfied with Catholicism, after all, it provides for their spiritual needs, so why wouldn’t it work for everyone else? One person might come away from Mass feeling like they’ve touched the sacred, I personally always came away bored out of my skull even when I was going through my “ultra-religious” phase, different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

Maybe. But lets look at it this way.

Remember the time the devil told Jesus to turn the stone into bread, and kept tempting him to see if he really was God. For some reason this reminds me alot of what you just said.

Its like God if you are real let me hit the lotto today, or as you said let me touch the sacred today!!

See God does not work that way. You are thinking in terms of this world. God’s world is of the next.

Maybe one day think of it this way. Do I have breakfast to eat today dinner and lunch. Then think WHY ME LORD???

Why do I have food and others suffer so much? Then maybe wonder where did that food actually REALLY come from? THen maybe instead of wondering why the supernatural didn’t touch you, wonder how some how you got the full belly!!

Please do not say because you worked or etc. Many People in this world do not even have the OPPORTUNITY to work.

Maybe take a look at those legs of yours. MOVE THEM!! Then think WHY ME LORD, What did I ever DO to deserve even ONE of the great gifts that come from you. Maybe that will get you thinking of the supernatural in another way.

 

[GEddie]

Yes, the Nicaean creed may say that, but how that is interpreted in the pews, is a different story.

So you would turn to an average sinner in the pews to learn the basic truth about Christ? Most such persons would agree with the bodily resurrection. What makes one average sinner’s thoughts more valid than another’s? Wouldn’t it be better to turn to the authorities of the faith?

One need not “accept” reincarnation in order to be a Buddhist, if by “accept” you mean “intellectually understand that reincarnation is true, even if one has no direct experience of reincarnation”. But, a Buddhist (I would argue) would do well to not summarily reject reincarnation just because he or she does not have any direct experience of it.

Ok. None of us has direct expereince of bodily resurrection, either. That’s not a valid reason to reject it.

Jesus said, to Thomas, “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.” Jesus did not say, “Cursed are those who interpret the resurrection in different ways; they are not to be called Christian”.

And who said anything about cursing.

Somebody who rejects bodily resurrection cannot be a Christian, because he rejects the central event of Christ’s life, the event that defined HIM. There’s no curse there, just a prerequisite of afith.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Ahimsa]

If it aint there, it aint there full stop.

True. And the Trinity isn’t in the Bible, either.
Catholics are not sola scriptura, so this shouldn’t be a big deal.

 

[benedictus2]

Notice that Jesus did not say that those who don’t believe, should not be called Christians.

Well hello, Christians were not called Christians in Jesus time. They were only called Christians in Antioch. And those who were called Christians were the ones who believed in the Gospels as taught by the apostles.

In fact, Jesus did not say anything about those who don’t believe.

What He did say about those who believed in Him is that they will have eternal life.

He only addressed those who believed, and called them blessed.

Exactly. May we then infer that those who don’t believe are not blessed?

 

[GEddie]

So, you’re saying Jesus didn’t really die?

Oh, HE died. Death is about the body (body stops breathing and moving, rolls back its eyes, etc) and resurrection is LIKEWISE about the BODY.

ICXC NIKA.