Why are the New Age movement and other exotic ideas so attractive?

[Sufjon]

No need to suspect. Our LORD definitely had hair, teeth, toes; head, hands, feet; etc. In life everlasting, so will we.

ICXC NIKA

Thanks GEddie: This is what I thought. Now, it is just my nature but this sort of thing always makes me start thinking to the next level. In this case, what makes me wonder is that the human body is uniquely adapted for land mammals on a specific planet with a certain oxygen level, a specific gravity and a narrow range of pressure. What this leads to is the question as to what use is it after the earth is gone. Eternity is far longer than the five or so billion years the Earth has left. Even things like feet are of no use on a gas giant, a water world or any rock planet with a lesser gravity than earth, or would be crushed somewhere with a greater gravity. So the question is where these bodies would be employed. Even the shape of the human body is there to accommodate organs that are designed to operate in an earth environment - rib cage holding lungs and heart to process oxygen and distribute to the rest of the body, and so on, but all of these things are useless without earth. Even our nervous systems and sensory organs are tuned for this particular place. So, the question is: where is heaven in this line of thinking? What did Jesus ascend to - the ionosphere? Is He orbiting the earth? Did he flolat out to the Asteroid Belt? I know very well where heaven is in my faith, but my faith doesn’t require a body for eternal life.

Now, I want to be clear that I am not saying your faith isn’t true. I just want to know your thoughts on these practicalities. What is the purpose of these bodies after the earth is gone. and where is heaven?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Notice: when Christ rose from the dead, His Apostles and followers recognized Him.

Question: In considering what you just explained, could you offer an opinion on what these passages meant:

Luke 24:15-16

As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; but they were kept from recognizing him.

John 20:15

“Woman,” he said, “why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

John 21:4

Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.

Just curious, and I do *not *have an opinion or explanation of my own.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[GEddie]

Thanks GEddie: This is what I thought. Now, it is just my nature but this sort of thing always makes me start thinking to the next level. In this case, what makes me wonder is that the human body is uniquely adapted for land mammals on a specific planet with a certain oxygen level, a specific gravity and a narrow range of pressure. What this leads to is the question as to what use is it after the earth is gone. Eternity is far longer than the five or so billion years the Earth has left. Even things like feet are of no use on a gas giant, a water world or any rock planet with a lesser gravity than earth,

Fair question, S.

Actually, limbs are quite useful in an aqueous situation; a lot of aquatic creatures have them.

And your legs would serve you quite well indeed in a lower gravity. Remember the video of the men jumping around on the moon, even though they were in 300# of space suit?

or would be crushed somewhere with a greater gravity. So the question is where these bodies would be employed. Even the shape of the human body is there to accommodate organs that are designed to operate in an earth environment - rib cage holding lungs and heart to process oxygen and distribute to the rest of the body, and so on, but all of these things are useless without earth. Even our nervous systems and sensory organs are tuned for this particular place. So, the question is: where is heaven in this line of thinking? What did Jesus ascend to - the ionosphere? Is He orbiting the earth? Did he flolat out to the Asteroid Belt? I know very well where heaven is in my faith, but my faith doesn’t require a body for eternal life.

Now, I want to be clear that I am not saying your faith isn’t true. I just want to know your thoughts on these practicalities. What is the purpose of these bodies after the earth is gone. and where is heaven?

Your friend
Sufjon

I’m not worried about the location of Heaven. Since I will be dead, I won’t be able to find it in any case. Our LORD will find it for me.

I don’t imagine that it lies within this universe. The entire unvierse is chained to the law of entropy.

But our LORD is not only going to reconstitute our bodies; HE will also create a New Earth. So even if your body required an earthly environment and could not be adapted to another one, such an environment will be available.

And what would you do in eternity without a body? No movement – you need limbs for that. No seeing, smelling or touching – eyes, nose and skin are body parts. Not even knowing or remembering – for that, you need your head.

In any case, I don’t trust in a set of beliefs, I trust in our LORD. HE obviously believed HIS human body was worth redeeming to Heaven. And HE has promised to do the same for everybody, as well as to build the New Earth. That’s good enough for me.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[GEddie]

Question: In considering what you just explained, could you offer an opinion on what these passages meant:

Luke 24:15-16

As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; but they were kept from recognizing him.

John 20:15

“Woman,” he said, “why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

John 21:4

Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.

Just curious, and I do *not *have an opinion or explanation of my own.

Your friend
Sufjon

There are 2 factors here:

First of all, the pneumatikon soma, although designed around the template of the original human body, is different in some ways. Saint Paul said that what is “sown in weakness…is raised in power; [what is] sown in dishonor…is raised in glory…sown a natural body…raised a spiritual body [pneumatikon soma].” While we are not told in detail what the changes will be, clearly the bodies are not exactly the same, and so failure of recognition is hardly inexplicable.

But also, HIS disciples had just seen him die. One of the brutal facts about human death is you don’t get that person back. So the disciples were probably in a state of mental block when they saw HIM.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Sufjon]

Fair question, S.

Actually, limbs are quite useful in an aqueous situation; a lot of aquatic creatures have them.

And your legs would serve you quite well indeed in a lower gravity. Remember the video of the men jumping around on the moon, even though they were in 300# of space suit?

I’m not worried about the location of Heaven. Since I will be dead, I won’t be able to find it in any case. Our LORD will find it for me.

I don’t imagine that it lies within this universe. The entire unvierse is chained to the law of entropy.

But our LORD is not only going to reconstitute our bodies; HE will also create a New Earth. So even if your body required an earthly environment and could not be adapted to another one, such an environment will be available.

And what would you do in eternity without a body? No movement – you need limbs for that. No seeing, smelling or touching – eyes, nose and skin are body parts. Not even knowing or remembering – for that, you need your head.

In any case, I don’t trust in a set of beliefs, I trust in our LORD. HE obviously believed HIS human body was worth redeeming to Heaven. And HE has promised to do the same for everybody, as well as to build the New Earth. That’s good enough for me.

ICXC NIKA.

I see. Thank you.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

There are 2 factors here:

First of all, the pneumatikon soma, although designed around the template of the original human body, is different in some ways. Saint Paul said that what is “sown in weakness…is raised in power; [what is] sown in dishonor…is raised in glory…sown a natural body…raised a spiritual body [pneumatikon soma].” While we are not told in detail what the changes will be, clearly the bodies are not exactly the same, and so failure of recognition is hardly inexplicable.

But also, HIS disciples had just seen him die. One of the brutal facts about human death is you don’t get that person back. So the disciples were probably in a state of mental block when they saw HIM.

ICXC NIKA.

I see. Thanks for sharing your view on both of these points.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[benedictus2]

Sticking with the Thomas event: Right, which leaves those who don’t believe in Him, in an undetermined category.

This is standard Catholic doctrine: those who are not presently (in this lifetime) Christian, may or may not be saved. Their status is undetermined.

Their status is left to the mercy of God.

 

[Kismetji]

The point is… I think we all just believe what we want…

I believe things that make sense to me personally. They may not make much rational sense - but that’s where Intuition comes in. With the Intuition there is a lot more “inner sense” that begins unfolding, sort of like a flower.

This is not to say all dogma is bad. As Chesterton said we are the only types of beings we know of that make Dogmas. But, take it with a grain of salt, is my view. Ultimately, we believe what it is we want to believe. It’s all about YOU.

 

[Mark_David]

Not sure if this is the correct forum, but here we go. The question I’m posing has really struck me for some time. I’ve wondered why all of these crazy ideas proposed by New Age “leaders” (for lack of a better word) and their followers are so attractive to people. I guess it’s true that in a way this reveals a great hunger in people for Truth and their purpose in life.

Not only that, but, in a word: Power.

The last item that I emphasized here is truly affecting my sister. She’s been driving herself further and further away from the teachings of the Catholic faith and immersing herself into these New Age ideas. I guess I’m not even sure how deeply she is into this but I know that she’s always wondering about what her purpose is, that she is trying to find her “inner self”, and other stuff like that. She claims of having premonitions, visions, hauntings by demonic beings in her dreams, having a past life, belief in reincarnation, etc. etc.

Dangerous territory. There’s a reason the Bible and the Catholic Catechism warn us against any kind of divination; contrary to popular opinion, this stuff is all too real. If you play with fire, it’s only a matter of time that you’ll get burned.

 

[benedictus2]

One of the main ways that ideas of resurrection differ among Christians (conservative, moderate, liberal, emergent, emerging, etc.) is whether the resurrection body is (1) the same physical body one possess while alive, with the same atoms and so forth; (2) a physical body not necessarily composed of the same atoms; (3a) a body that is physical, but made of “transformed” atoms, not composed of what we think of as matter; (3b) a purely spiritual resurrected body, composed of subtle forms of matter; (4) purely a symbol of the moral and spiritual rebirth of a person during his or her lifetime; (5) a symbol of something that cannot be described in any accurate fashion whatsoever, so it’s best just to not think about it too much.

I was thinking this over as I dozed off to sleep so i thought I would give a second reply to this.

First let us look at the term resurrection.

Resurrection means a coming back to life of the biologically dead.

Points 1 to 3a can thus be viewed as resurrection events.

Point 3B does not make sense. A spiritual body? Whatever does that mean? Of course all beings human beings can be said to be bodies and souls so that falls in to another category does not make sense.

Points 4 and 5 cannot be called resurrection since there is no dead body that has come to life to speak of.

 

[benedictus2]

The human person is composed of many levels of being. You can’t discuss the person’s resurrection without discussing those levels of being.

A human person is composed of many levels of being? Says who?

You are imposing a totally Hindu/Buddhist concept on a Christian theology. Won’t do.

 

[benedictus2]

It’s not really that simple, because, if it were that simple, you would agree that reincarnation (“a dead human being resuming his/her aliveness”) is compatible with resurrection (“a dead human being resuming his/her aliveness”).

Are you trying to play stupid here or are you being one?

You are a buddhist, you obviously know that when you speak of reincarnation, it is dying coming back to life as a different person altogether and dying and coming back ad infinitum.

How is that similar to resurrection where we were created once, die once and come alive again and it is still the same us not some dog, gnat, or possible human being?

 

[benedictus2]

So, you’re saying Jesus didn’t really die?

The Human Jesus did. When our physical bodies die our spirit lives on.

 

[benedictus2]

Well,the people in the pews are “Christian”, right? The authorities are not the only “Christians”, correct?

The people in the pews may or may not be Christian, but they are not the ones that determine doctrine.

Let me put it this way- suppose a lot of Hindus suddenly believes in the truth of Christianity and starts adjusting Hindu teaching to suit their Christian belief, bending and contorting Hindu teaching here and there.

Can you say that they are Hindu and as such can legitimately speak of what is truly Hindu?

OK, but Jesus Himself never made believing in His bodily resurrection a precondition for being called “Christian”. In fact, Jesus never used the word “Christian”

One thing that you are totally missing here is that Jesus established a Church to which He promised the guidance of the Holy Spirit into all truth. This Church that was - and is - being guided into all truth, realized THIS Truth, that belief in Christ means belief in His bodily resurrection. You can’t believe in Him without believing that.

 

[benedictus2]

We were referring to the time Thomas put his hand in Jesus’ side. On that occasion, Jesus said nothing about those who would not believe.

But one cannot tie down Jesus to one event.

 

[benedictus2]

GEddie:

A human body. But an upgraded version; pneumatikon soma.

Did this pneumatikon soma ascend into heaven?
Since it is a resurrected body then yes.

 

[benedictus2]

You are close dear friend. The reason our ways are attractive and I have had time to think on this is, our promises are kept.

Actually not. Your promises appear to be kept. But in the end all they do is leave people wanting.

Those who feel they have been kept have actually been given gifts by the evil spirit. And the evil spirit gives this promise because it is the very thing that those who follow New Age seek - a deification of the self.

Practice, practice, practice and live a good moral life and you will have good things come to you!

So no one who is suffering is living a good moral life. All those who succeed (even if by criminal activities) are living good moral lives.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Ahisma: I think our term subtle body is different than what these folks are referring to. I get the sense they are talking about something with hair, teeth, toes and the like.

Your friend,
Sufjion

Yes, I’m beginning to suspect that.

You got that right. Jesus after the resurrection had all those but at the same time was able to pass through walls, appear and disappear, etc.

 

[benedictus2]

Here are some sections of *The Autobiography of a Yogi *in which Jesus is mentioned as being united with God, just like the realized Yogis of India. This is from the Kindle version (which is free, from amazon) of the book"

You realize of course that this is a yogi trying to interpret Jesus divorced from Jesus’s own Jewish background.

The yogi does not get Jesus at all.

 

[benedictus2]

Thanks GEddie: This is what I thought. Now, it is just my nature but this sort of thing always makes me start thinking to the next level. In this case, what makes me wonder is that the human body is uniquely adapted for land mammals on a specific planet with a certain oxygen level, a specific gravity and a narrow range of pressure. What this leads to is the question as to what use is it after the earth is gone. Eternity is far longer than the five or so billion years the Earth has left. Even things like feet are of no use on a gas giant, a water world or any rock planet with a lesser gravity than earth, or would be crushed somewhere with a greater gravity. So the question is where these bodies would be employed. Even the shape of the human body is there to accommodate organs that are designed to operate in an earth environment - rib cage holding lungs and heart to process oxygen and distribute to the rest of the body, and so on, but all of these things are useless without earth. Even our nervous systems and sensory organs are tuned for this particular place. So, the question is: where is heaven in this line of thinking? What did Jesus ascend to - the ionosphere? Is He orbiting the earth? Did he flolat out to the Asteroid Belt? I know very well where heaven is in my faith, but my faith doesn’t require a body for eternal life.

Now, I want to be clear that I am not saying your faith isn’t true. I just want to know your thoughts on these practicalities. What is the purpose of these bodies after the earth is gone. and where is heaven?

Your friend
Sufjon

You are assuming that the physical characteristics are there just for the specific reason that they are there right now in this particular state.

You are limiting the possibilities of what heaven is like when you do that.

The resurrected body of Jesus while physical with hair, teeth, etc was also able to pass through walls. The resurrected body of Jesus ate and yet at the same time appeared and disappeared like a ghost - a pure spirit.

The Bible speaks of a new heaven and a new earth. How that is going to be we can’t comprehend with our limited minds.