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Michael16
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I really love how you laid out how faith and obedience of faith are implied and necessarily required together. Beautiful
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TULIPed
Guest
I think the key concept associated with use of “the law” was what the US Catholic Bishops say it is - which is here:
“On the basis of the Mosaic covenant, God’s justice is in question if those who sinned against the law are permitted to go free (see Rom 3:23–26). In order to rescue all humanity rather than condemn it, God thinks of an alternative: the law or “principle” of faith (Rom 3:27). What can be more fair than to admit everyone into the divine presence on the basis of forgiveness grasped by faith? Indeed, this principle of faith antedates the Mosaic law, as Paul will demonstrate in Rom 4, and does not therefore mark a change in divine policy.”
I don’t think his use of the term was to somehow link obedience to the faith. Rather it’s to allow everyone - jew and gentile - to commune with God based on faith. This would be consistent with using the first 2 Chapter of Romans to put everybody in a bind with God.
In any case, as I read the Catechism, I’m pretty sure that the concept of cooperation doesn’t reference Romans at all, rather it references the Council of Trent, no? My point being - the way I read the Catechism and the US Council of Catholic Bishops commentary on Romans, the concept of obedience to the faith isn’t part of what Paul was going for in Romans.
Said another way - I’m sure your accurately portraying the position of the Catholic Church on faith and obedience - I just don’t think Romans is the place in the Bible to support it.
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Techno2000
Guest
Right, the Bible can’t contradict itself…
Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:17
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Techno2000
Guest
The “free gift” was God opening up Heaven for Mankind, but man still has to earn his way there.
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Michael16
Guest
@TULIPed
You raise a good point and I’ll try to help you understand me.
Where I see the cooperation is in Romans 5, in which we are given the Holy Spirit; and in Romans 8:26 in which the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness and in setting our minds on things of the Spirit and living according to the Spirit; which could be understood as listening for and obeying the movements of the Holy Spirit within us.
My question for you is: Why don’t you see obedience to faith as part of faith?
You raise a good point and I’ll try to help you understand me.
Where I see the cooperation is in Romans 5, in which we are given the Holy Spirit; and in Romans 8:26 in which the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness and in setting our minds on things of the Spirit and living according to the Spirit; which could be understood as listening for and obeying the movements of the Holy Spirit within us.
My question for you is: Why don’t you see obedience to faith as part of faith?
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TULIPed
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I see obedience - like all the good things we do that are pleasing to God - as a result of, and entirely due to - the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. All the credit for any obedience to God that I have goes to Him.
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Michael16
Guest
@TULIPed
That’s a beautiful thing you just said, my friend.
It reminds me of one of the principles in The Rule of Saint Benedict:
Any good in me I attribute to God; any evil in me I attribute to myself.
But you do make the choice to obey, right?
Another observation, my friend:
Catholic theology holds that man was made good by God.
Original sin marred this beautiful creature of God and left a permanent wound in his soul called concupiscence.
Luther taught that man is a pile of dung that’s covered in the righteousness of Christ and has no free will except to sin.
Calvin taught the total depravity of man.
Horrifying statements in my mind. We are creatures of God, made in His image and likeness; and God doesn’t make evil things.
That’s a beautiful thing you just said, my friend.
It reminds me of one of the principles in The Rule of Saint Benedict:
Any good in me I attribute to God; any evil in me I attribute to myself.
But you do make the choice to obey, right?
Another observation, my friend:
Catholic theology holds that man was made good by God.
Original sin marred this beautiful creature of God and left a permanent wound in his soul called concupiscence.
Luther taught that man is a pile of dung that’s covered in the righteousness of Christ and has no free will except to sin.
Calvin taught the total depravity of man.
Horrifying statements in my mind. We are creatures of God, made in His image and likeness; and God doesn’t make evil things.
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TULIPed
Guest
I believe that without Christ, we are depraved. I believe this, not because John Calvin said it, but because of my experience with sin in my life. Not a single aspect of my life is free from sin. The more I grow in my faith, the more I realize how I am riddled with it. Which is why I’m so thankful for God and his mercy. And I’m convinced that without the Holy Spirit in my life, none of my choices would be pleasing to God. St. Benedict was a wise man.
I do make the choice to obey. But the only way I’m able to make that choice - and the only reason the choice is pleasing to God - is because the Holy Spirit is dwelling within me.
I appreciate your convictions Michael. I also appreciate your zeal for the Church and for our King. And now I must get some sleep. I’m sure we’ll be back at it in the morning.
I do make the choice to obey. But the only way I’m able to make that choice - and the only reason the choice is pleasing to God - is because the Holy Spirit is dwelling within me.
I appreciate your convictions Michael. I also appreciate your zeal for the Church and for our King. And now I must get some sleep. I’m sure we’ll be back at it in the morning.
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Michael16
Guest
@TULIPed
See you in the morning. God bless
See you in the morning. God bless
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BohemianBrother
Guest
It is not an accusation, I am happy for the OO and CC to come closer together. And yes, I understand only the bare surface of the topic of Christology. What I wanted to suggest is that maybe the difference between Lutheran “Sola Fide” and the Catholic teaching on justification isn’t actually in meaning, but more in terminology and as such the Lutheran notion of Sola fide could be accepted as a valid position within catholicism. In the end, it depends on whether you want to alienate Lutherans and deem them as heretics altogether, or work to understand their position in relation to yours and then possibly reunite with whole ecclesial communities. Ultimately I believe all the Solas can be accomodated within Catholicism, if defined properly and with mutual charity and understanding.
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Michael16
Guest
@BohemianBrother and @Hodos
The problem with your assertion on the Lutheran Sola Fide is that they believe in faith alone justifies; based on an misreading and overlooking the whole of Romans 3:28. They believe that good works, while good and commanded by God and they do; don’t lead to eternal life in combination with justification.
To clarify their misunderstanding; you have to reference Romans 5:21, 6:19, and 6:21-23.
Their misunderstanding is premised on reading Romans 3:28, stated in the text as faith apart from works of the law; as faith alone from works and divorcing justification from sanctification that nowhere in Romans does Saint Paul state.
Saint Paul is properly understood to say that we’re justified by faith in obedience to faith, yielding to righteousness; we get sanctification that leads to eternal life.
So, Luther’s Sola Fide cannot be reconciled with Catholic theology. Solas Grace and Christ however can.
The problem with your assertion on the Lutheran Sola Fide is that they believe in faith alone justifies; based on an misreading and overlooking the whole of Romans 3:28. They believe that good works, while good and commanded by God and they do; don’t lead to eternal life in combination with justification.
To clarify their misunderstanding; you have to reference Romans 5:21, 6:19, and 6:21-23.
Their misunderstanding is premised on reading Romans 3:28, stated in the text as faith apart from works of the law; as faith alone from works and divorcing justification from sanctification that nowhere in Romans does Saint Paul state.
Saint Paul is properly understood to say that we’re justified by faith in obedience to faith, yielding to righteousness; we get sanctification that leads to eternal life.
So, Luther’s Sola Fide cannot be reconciled with Catholic theology. Solas Grace and Christ however can.
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Michael16
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@TULIPed
I’ve been thinking a little about what you said in your last post. I could feel the sadness and vulnerability in your words and I felt deeply for you. Here’s a couple of things that might help you.
I could sense in you the feeling that you want very much to please God and be good and free from sin. I totally get that. I’ve suffered myself like that for years. The first thing I want to say is something we say in my family: If you feel bad about doing wrong; that means you’re a good person. A truly evil and depraved person wouldn’t care a whit about their sins.
You are a good creation of God, my friend and it showed in your text. Thank you for sharing what you did and being brave in being that vulnerable in public.
Here’s the other things:
The basis of Saint Benedict’s Rule is premised on completely surrendering your will to God’s Will in holy obedience. Think of it like Our Lord in the Garden of Gethsemane. Not my will; but Your Will be done, Father.
Saint Benedict saw the monastery as a school of service to God and a workshop in which good works are the tools of the craftsman.
If you’re interested; I’d suggest you find a good Catholic book store in your area and find a copy of the Rule of Saint Benedict. If you’re comfortable with it; ask a priest to bless it.
I’ve been thinking a little about what you said in your last post. I could feel the sadness and vulnerability in your words and I felt deeply for you. Here’s a couple of things that might help you.
I could sense in you the feeling that you want very much to please God and be good and free from sin. I totally get that. I’ve suffered myself like that for years. The first thing I want to say is something we say in my family: If you feel bad about doing wrong; that means you’re a good person. A truly evil and depraved person wouldn’t care a whit about their sins.
You are a good creation of God, my friend and it showed in your text. Thank you for sharing what you did and being brave in being that vulnerable in public.
Here’s the other things:
The basis of Saint Benedict’s Rule is premised on completely surrendering your will to God’s Will in holy obedience. Think of it like Our Lord in the Garden of Gethsemane. Not my will; but Your Will be done, Father.
Saint Benedict saw the monastery as a school of service to God and a workshop in which good works are the tools of the craftsman.
If you’re interested; I’d suggest you find a good Catholic book store in your area and find a copy of the Rule of Saint Benedict. If you’re comfortable with it; ask a priest to bless it.
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Michael16
Guest
@Hodos
This thread has been a wonderful experience for me and I want to thank you, Hodos with all love and sincerity from the depths of my heart.
If you hadn’t challenged me to read Romans and harmonize it, reading the Catechism on justification by faith; and then our apologetics afterwards; I never would have seen the beautiful depths and truths of the Catholic Faith that has been faithfully teaching justification by faith for 2,000 years from the very beginning.
My faith has been deepened profoundly, helped me master Old sinful habits and now I have the faith and joy to meaningfully engage my separated brothers and sisters in Christ, in a healthy ecumenical way where I meet them where they’re at, help them to the fullness of the Faith and clear up many misconceptions.
Now I can walk into any Protestant community on Earth and dialogue meaningfully and fruitfully; able to meet their many questions and misunderstandings without fear or doubt.
I know you’re likely to be shocked and angry with my words. I do mean them with Christian love, charity, gratitude and sincerity.
Thank you, brother Hodos. God bless you.
This thread has been a wonderful experience for me and I want to thank you, Hodos with all love and sincerity from the depths of my heart.
If you hadn’t challenged me to read Romans and harmonize it, reading the Catechism on justification by faith; and then our apologetics afterwards; I never would have seen the beautiful depths and truths of the Catholic Faith that has been faithfully teaching justification by faith for 2,000 years from the very beginning.
My faith has been deepened profoundly, helped me master Old sinful habits and now I have the faith and joy to meaningfully engage my separated brothers and sisters in Christ, in a healthy ecumenical way where I meet them where they’re at, help them to the fullness of the Faith and clear up many misconceptions.
Now I can walk into any Protestant community on Earth and dialogue meaningfully and fruitfully; able to meet their many questions and misunderstandings without fear or doubt.
I know you’re likely to be shocked and angry with my words. I do mean them with Christian love, charity, gratitude and sincerity.
Thank you, brother Hodos. God bless you.
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TULIPed
Guest
You’re kind to say so, and while my sin does make me sad sometimes, I mostly feel great joy. Value is defined as the price at which an asset trades between a buyer and a seller, with neither being under compulsion to transact. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:20 that we were “bought with a great price”.
I know that because of Christ I have great - really immeasurable - worth. I know that my sin - great as it is - is completely and totally forgiven thanks to Jesus’ work on the cross. “As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us” the Psalmist says.
Thanks to the Bible - and specifically Paul’s words in Romans (in my interpretation at least
) I am confident that my salvation has nothing to do with what I do - and everything to do with what Christ did. And because of my thankfulness to and love for Him, and the Holy Spirit’s power within me, I continue to “run the race with endurance”.But I do appreciate your kind words of encouragement. I will indeed look into St. Benedict - and I have no problem asking a Priest to bless it and me. I have a good friend who is a Catholic Priest as a matter of fact.
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Hodos
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No, that is quite a leap in logic, because if you have read the law, you would see it is sweeping in its scope, and if you have even a cursory knowledge of the New Testament, you would know that the law was not just set aside. As Christ said, he did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it. The Ten Commandments didn’t just go away. The requirement to take care of orphans and widows is referred to constantly in the New Testament. Paul paraphrases Leviticus when speaking against homosexuality. Even Mosaic laws having to do the raising of livestock are quoted as binding in the application of taking care of one’s pastor. The false dichotomy you are trying to make between works (which Paul in Chapter 1 held the Gentiles accountable for), and works of the law (which Paul used to equally condemn the Jews who bragged about their having the moral and ceremonial components) does not exist. Paul tells both groups that they are justified by faith apart from works of the law, and then expands upon that in Chapters 4-6. You have to close your eyes to the rest of Paul’s argument about justification from Chapter 1-8 in order to make that stick.
Lastly, the law of love you keep speaking about already existed in the Mosaic law. Where do you think Jesus quoted from when he mentioned the two greatest commandments? Hint: Deuteronomy 6 and Leviticus 19.
Even here you are in error because Paul specifically has already stated that we are justified by faith in Chapter 3. The purpose of the law was to be our tutor and lead us to Christ. However, we are justified by faith. Now, again, Paul speaks of living by the spirit, which results in walking by the spirit, describing specific virtues as the result of faith and justification, but not the cause of it.
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Hodos
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I am good with that. Iron sharpens iron. If I force you to delve into scripture in our discussions, I consider that a win for both of us, even if we still differ in our theology.
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chrisjb
Guest
GAL 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
And lets look at the context behind GAL 5:6 starting with 2-5:
2 It is I, Paul, who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law.
4 You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
In another words, the entire law no longer justifies. It has been fulfilled in Jesus to even one commandment. Only faith working through love justifies now.
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Michael16
Guest
I think what Protestants misunderstand about works is that works are an inherent part of faith. In Romans 1, Saint Paul states that he works to bring about the obedience of faith.
That’s a crucial thing to remember: Believe and obey. That’s why our works have merit with God.
Another thing to remember is that Saint Paul transitions the basis of justification from works of the law to faith in Romans 3-4, goes on to lay out that yielding to the righteousness of our justification by faith, our sanctification; leads to eternal life in Romans 6.
That’s a crucial thing to remember: Believe and obey. That’s why our works have merit with God.
Another thing to remember is that Saint Paul transitions the basis of justification from works of the law to faith in Romans 3-4, goes on to lay out that yielding to the righteousness of our justification by faith, our sanctification; leads to eternal life in Romans 6.
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Hodos
Guest
Yes, this is from Leviticus 19. Jesus and Paul didn’t get rid of the law. They upheld it.
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Hodos
Guest
Thank you for conceding my point. You are not justified by works, but by faith and that works are a fruit of faith, namely sanctification. In other words, you were justified through faith before any works began.
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