Why are the Sacraments not in Biblical order?

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I was baptized Catholic as an infant, first communion, then left the church.
Thanks for sharing.
Married a cradle Catholic that did not know the faith, but weekly mass attender.
She must not pay much attention huh?
About four years ago I went thru RCIA, was confirmed (but should not have done it - a difficult time in my life, too much to explain here).
I’m only curious if and what you believed about the Gospel, at this point.
About a year after that I met a great Baptist pastor and began attending church there. It was with his help I finally began to find a real relationship and understanding of Jesus.
I have a brother in law that had a very similar experience.
Spent time reading First Apology of Justin Martyr this AM, and again find nothing to indicate infant baptism or Eucharist for anyone that was not a baptized believer that had been taught and confirmed their faith.
Yes, Justin is one of many fathers. Sometimes they come with various traditions. Some contradict each other. The Church has to determine which traditions were Sacred and which ones were the local practice.
 
Copied this from Church Militant’s link:

" If God commanded that babies be brought into the faith in the OT, why would that logical and family oriented practice cease with the coming of the Messiah? ALL Christianity is about family…that’s about as NT as it gets."

That’s good - and goes along with a lot of the covenant teaching from Scott Hahn I have heard. I really don’t have an issue with it.

I guess I keep giving a lot of credit toward the Baptist views as they were the ones that helped me so much. When I was in personal need (spiritual and emotional) the Catholic priest I saw just didn’t seem very good at working with people, and the community at the parish just does not seem to show much fruit.

In comparison the Baptist church seemed to have extra fruit and knew how to share.

Just working on things yet I guess.
 
From New Advent here:newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

Baptism of infants

Infant baptism has, however, been the subject of much dispute. TheWaldensesandCathariand later theAnabaptists, rejected thedoctrinethat infants are capable of receiving valid baptism, and somesectarians*at the present day hold the same opinion.

TheCatholicChurch, however, maintains absolutely that thelawofChristapplies as well to infants as to adults. When theRedeemerdeclares (John 3) that it isnecessaryto be born again of water and theHoly Ghostin order to enter theKingdom of God, His words may be justly understood to mean that He includes all who are capable of having arightto thiskingdom. Now, He has asserted such arighteven for those who are not adults, when He says (Matthew 19:14): "Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for thekingdom of heavenis for such." It has been objected that this latter text does not refer to infants, inasmuch asChristsays “to come to me”. In the parallel passage inSt. Luke (18:15), however, the text reads: “And they brought unto him also infants, that he might touch them”; and then follow the words cited fromSt. Matthew. In the Greek text, the wordsbrepheandprosepheronrefer to infants in arms.

Moreover,St. Paul(Colossians 2) says that baptism in the New Law has taken the place ofcircumcisionin theOld. It was especially to infants that theriteofcircumcisionwas applied by Divine precept. If it be said that there is no example of the baptism of infants to be found in theBible, we may answer that infants are included in such phrases as: “She wasbaptized and her household" (Acts 16:15); "Himself wasbaptized, and all his house immediately” (Acts 16:33); “I baptized the household of Stephanus” (1 Corinthians 1:16).

ThetraditionofChristianantiquity as to thenecessityof infant baptism is clear from the very beginning. We have given many striking quotations on this subject already, in dealing with thenecessity*of baptism. A few, therefore, will suffice here.

Origen*(in cap. vi, Ep. ad Rom.) declares: "TheChurchreceived from theApostlesthetraditionof giving baptism also to infants".St. Augustine(Serm. xi, De Verb Apost.) says of infant baptism: "This theChurchalways had, always held; this she received from thefaithof our ancestors; this she perseveringly guards even to the end."St. Cyprian*(Epistle 58) writes: "From baptism and fromgrace. . . must not be kept the infant who, because recently born, has committed nosin, except, inasmuch as it was born carnally fromAdam, it has contracted the contagion of theancient deathin its first nativity; and it comes to receive the remission ofsinsmore easily on this very account that not its own, but another’ssinsare forgiven it."St. Cyprian’sletter to Fidusdeclares that theCouncil of Carthagein 253 reprobated the opinion that the baptism of infants should be delayed until the eighth day after birth.TheCouncil of Milevisin 416anathematizeswhosoever says that infants lately born are not to be baptized.TheCouncil of Trentsolemnlydefinesthedoctrineof infant baptism (Sess. VII, can. xiii). It also condemns (can. xiv) the opinion ofErasmusthat those who had been baptized in infancy, should be left free to ratify or reject the baptismal promises after they had become adult.

Theologiansalso call attention to the fact that asGodsincerely wishes allmento besaved, He does not exclude infants, for whom baptism of either water or blood is the only means possible. Thedoctrinesalso of the universality oforiginal sinand of the all-comprehendingatonementofChristare stated so plainly and absolutely inScriptureas to leave no solidreasonfor denying that infants are included as well as adults.

To the objection that baptism requiresfaith,theologiansreply that adults must havefaith, but infants receivehabitualfaith, which is infused into them in thesacramentofregeneration. As to actualfaith, theybelieveon thefaithof another; asSt. Augustine(De Verb. Apost., xiv, xviii) beautifully says: “Hebelievesby another, who hassinnedby another.”

As to theobligationimposed by baptism, the infant isobligedto fulfill them in proportion to its age and capacity, as is the case with alllaws.Christ, it istrue, prescribed instruction and actualfaithfor adults asnecessaryfor baptism (Matthew 28;Mark 16), but in His generallawon thenecessityof thesacrament(John 3) He makes absolutely no restriction as to the subject of baptism; and consequently while infants are included in thelaw, they can not be required to fulfillconditions*that are utterly impossible at their age.

While not denying the validity of infant baptism,Tertullian*(De Bapt., xviii) desired that thesacramentbe not conferred upon them until they have attained theuse of reason, on account of the danger of profaning their baptism as youths amid the allurements ofpaganvice. In like manner,St. Gregory Nazianzen(Or. xl, De Bapt.) thought that baptism, unless there was danger of death, should be deferred until the child was three years old, for then it could hear and respond at theceremonies. Such opinions, however, were shared by few, and they contain no denial of the validity of infant baptism. It istruethat theCouncilofNeocæsarea*(can. vi) declares that an infant can not be baptized in its mother’s womb, but it was teaching only that neither the baptism of the mother nor herfaithis common to her and the infant in her womb, but areactspeculiar to the mother alone.
 
In comparison the Baptist church seemed to have extra fruit and knew how to share.
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While that may be an emotional reason to be Baptist, it’s not a good reason to be Baptist.

Rather, I think one should find the Church that Christ established, and then join it, and conform one’s views to Christ’s.
 
The Church, composed of men, is always in need of revitalization. You see it go through cycles throughout history, but it never dies. It’s good that the Baptist community you know produces good fruit. Power to our brothers and sisters in Christ for that! Certainly, some Catholic communities could use such a boost. It’s up to us to help.
 
I guess I keep giving a lot of credit toward the Baptist views as they were the ones that helped me so much. When I was in personal need (spiritual and emotional) the Catholic priest I saw just didn’t seem very good at working with people, and the community at the parish just does not seem to show much fruit.

In comparison the Baptist church seemed to have extra fruit and knew how to share.

Just working on things yet I guess.
To be sure, I can appreciate any denomination or individual who cares and shows an effort to give understanding about the Gospel and Scripture! Please always know that it is never this that I would criticize. 👍

As for the priest who showed a “lack of people skills” I definitely don’t believe every priest is good at “pastoring” in every way. Many priests are not installed as pastors. Some are out of necessity, even though they don’t have the best skills. I am sorry you struggled with receiving good guidance from a priest. This is truly unfortunate. Many should be better at providing the fundamentals of the Gospel.

What I do criticize, is direct contradiction to doctrines and Traditions of the Catholic faith. Many denominations have many of the same doctrines and beliefs of Christ. However, many set themselves up in opposition to the Church. A skillful teacher is never justified in teaching wrong things. Rebabtism is wrong and was condemned by Pope St. Stephen.
 
Copied this from Church Militant’s link:

" If God commanded that babies be brought into the faith in the OT, why would that logical and family oriented practice cease with the coming of the Messiah? ALL Christianity is about family…that’s about as NT as it gets."

That’s good - and goes along with a lot of the covenant teaching from Scott Hahn I have heard. I really don’t have an issue with it.

I guess I keep giving a lot of credit toward the Baptist views as they were the ones that helped me so much. When I was in personal need (spiritual and emotional) the Catholic priest I saw just didn’t seem very good at working with people, and the community at the parish just does not seem to show much fruit.

In comparison the Baptist church seemed to have extra fruit and knew how to share.

Just working on things yet I guess.
Hey, I understand my friend.🙂

However, “emotional fruit” is not really the same as “true fruit” (my terms, okay?) and we cannot sacrifice one in exchange for the other. Objective truth is important Markie, otherwise we are all lost.

If your parish doesn’t seem to be firing on all its cylinders then perhaps God has placed you thee for a reason…to help fix that.

You have to understand that many Catholics do not have a concept or personal evangelism and faith sharing that you and I do.

CA mag has an article that may help a bit. Why Catholics Don’t Evangelize?
and this looks promising. How We Evangelized 50,000 People

Faith sharing is hard for some people, but i bet if you stop and think about it…even at that Baptist community, they weren’t all witnessing…in fact from my own experience it is usually just a small number and the rest mostly just keep a pew warm.🤷

Not everyone has the disposition for it. Some people are just super shy…

And then too, most Catholics are not chapter and verse types even though my research has shown that Bible reading among Catholics is about the same as among n-Cs. Do Catholics Read the Bible?

So, there are ways to get busy with all this as well as help grow more life in your parish.

Talk to your pastor about Christ Renews His Parish, Bishop Robert Barron’s video series CATHOLICISM Series | Word On Fire, and St. Paul Street Evangelization

There is a lot more available, but that should get you off to a good running start and all of those things will get you fired up in the Lord like you cannot imagine.
 
:ouch:

:nope:
The New Testament Gospels say that all the people were going out to him and since half the gospels were written by apostles (Matthew and John) that means they knew that and participated. Context is everything…
 
The New Testament Gospels say that all the people were going out to him and since half the gospels were written by apostles (Matthew and John) that means they knew that and participated. Context is everything…
John’s Baptism was not a Sacramental Baptism.
 
About four years ago I went thru RCIA, was confirmed (but should not have done it - a difficult time in my life, too much to explain here).

… About a year after that I met a great Baptist pastor and began attending church there. It was with his help I finally began to find a real relationship and understanding of Jesus.
Btw, did this pastor convince you to be rebaptized? Even after receiving Confirmation as an adult?
 
Spent time reading First Apology of Justin Martyr this AM, and again find nothing to indicate infant baptism or Eucharist for anyone that was not a baptized believer that had been taught and confirmed their faith.
So what would you say about adults with special needs or infants/children near death? They obviously cannot consent in a nomral manner. I assume these situations would be considered exceptions for your pastor. In the United States the number one killer for anyone under the age of 35 is a car accident. And since you never know if your child could be in a deadly car accident shouldn’t the parents have the choice to baptize their children? And of course in many third world countries children face far more life threatening challenges.
 
Why was John’s not sacramental? If Jesus said “Of those born of women none are greater than John”, would he not be as able as anyone or more so?
 
Why was John’s not sacramental? If Jesus said “Of those born of women none are greater than John”, would he not be as able as anyone or more so?
Just finish that Scripture quote. 😉

I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
Johns baptism was in preparation of the Baptism in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 
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