Why are the saints sometimes prayed to in themselves?

[Hatikvah]

I understand the concept of saintly intercession, in which we ask the saints to pray to God for us, because they are in Heaven while we are not. That makes sense to me.

But what about prayers directly to the saints, and not ultimately to God? For example, the common prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel is addressed to him directly, not for his prayers to God.

The common prayer to Saint Jude, however, says “pray for me, who is so miserable” (or something of the sort).

So how are they prayed to directly in themselves to the aversion of idolatry?

(Note: I’m not making an accusation of idolatry, and I’m aware that Catholicism is among the Christian traditions.)

 

[Dempsey1919]

Some post-Vatican II Catholics have a protestantized idea of the Catholic faith. They emphasize the reality of saintly intercession while neglecting mention that we can pray directly to the saints. The saints are real people and we have real relationships with them; we talk to them and seek their assistance and prayers.

In fact, when reciting the ancient form of the Confiteor in the Traditional Mass, Catholics confess their sins to God, to Blessed Mary Ever Virgin, Blessed Michael the Archangel, Blessed John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul and the priest.

For some reason, post-Vatican II Catholics emphasize intercession while neglecting the rest.

The Communion of Saints encompasses a lot more than intercession. It’s best to see the the Angels and Saints as family members whom we have close intimate relationships with.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Some post-Vatican II Catholics have a protestantized idea of the Catholic faith. They emphasize the reality of saintly intercession while neglecting mention that we can pray directly to the saints. The saints are real people and we have real relationships with them; we talk to them and seek their assistance and prayers.

In fact, when reciting the ancient form of the Confiteor in the Traditional Mass, Catholics confess their sins to God, to Blessed Mary Ever Virgin, Blessed Michael the Archangel, Blessed John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul and the priest.

For some reason, post-Vatican II Catholics emphasize intercession while neglecting the rest.

The Communion of Saints encompasses a lot more than intercession. It’s best to see the the Angels and Saints as family members whom we have close intimate relationships with.

I am not a “Post Vatican Catholic” I am a CATHOLIC. I think the OPs misunderstanding has more to do with the nature of intercession

 

[Dempsey1919]

adamhovey1988:

I am not a “Post Vatican Catholic” I am a CATHOLIC.

Glad to hear it. Who called you a “Post Vatican Catholic?”

 

[PraiseChrist]

Actually, even in the modern confiteor, we confess to Mary, and to all the angels saints, which includes Sts. Peter and Paul, St. Michael, St. John the Baptist, ect, asking them to pray for us to the Lord.
We ask for their prayers, in order to have them help us, like asking your friend to pray for you. The saints really can hear us, and the article I’m now linking goes into that, using Revelation 5:8:

From the article:

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Heres the article
catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

 

[Gertabelle]

I understand the concept of saintly intercession, in which we ask the saints to pray to God for us, because they are in Heaven while we are not. That makes sense to me.

But what about prayers directly to the saints, and not ultimately to God? For example, the common prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel is addressed to him directly, not for his prayers to God.

The common prayer to Saint Jude, however, says “pray for me, who is so miserable” (or something of the sort).

So how are they prayed to directly in themselves to the aversion of idolatry?

(Note: I’m not making an accusation of idolatry, and I’m aware that Catholicism is among the Christian traditions.)

Excellent question. I’ll do my best to answer it, but please be aware that I’m not an apologist, just a single mom and teacher who is striving to love God above all.

We can ask for the help of the Saints and Angels directly in the same sense that we can ask for the help of people on earth – without committing an offense to God or His power. We recognize that the Saints and Angels can do nothing unless it is the will of the Father and by His doing.

For example, I might say this prayer to Mary (that is, I am speaking to her): “Dear Mother, take my son under your motherly care and protection and lead her to your Divine Son, Jesus. Instruct him to do as the servants did at the wedding at Cana – whatever Jesus tells him.”

To continue with this example, I might say something similar to my son’s godmother, who is a dear friend of mine. I might ask her to pray for my son, to be an example to him, to use those “teachable moments” when our families are together to direct my son to Jesus.

The difference is that my friend, although actually quite holy, is still on earth and capable of sin (not that I want any details on her sins!). Mary – being in heaven, and let’s face it, God’s favorite – can intercede for us in a way that is way beyond what anyone on earth can.

As my friends and I sometimes notice, some people seem to just “have God’s ear” when it comes to their requests. Perhaps their hearts are more pure, or they are simply holier. Mary is the most pure and holy of God’s creatures.

But I digress, sorry. Point is, when we can absolutely talk directly to the Saints and ask specific actions of them. But we acknowledge that it is God who does or does not grant our request.

I don’t think I’ve helped you at all – my mind is such a rambling mess of thoughts. But I am thankful for your question. And I pray someone will be able to answer it effectively for you.

God bless you!

 

[Hatikvah]

I don’t think I’ve helped you at all – my mind is such a rambling mess of thoughts. But I am thankful for your question. And I pray someone will be able to answer it effectively for you.

God bless you!

You have helped me! I understand this better now, and thank you for answering (I thank the rest of you, as well).

God bless you all!

 

[Dempsey1919]

PraiseChrist:

Actually, even in the modern confiteor, we confess to Mary, and to all the angels saints, which includes Sts. Peter and Paul, St. Michael, St. John the Baptist, ect, asking them to pray for us to the Lord.

Strictly speaking, it is not true that we confess to Mary or the Saints in the ‘modern’ confiteor. This is the text of the modern prayer:
Ordinary Form Confiteor:

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault, through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God

Notice that the confession is to Almighty God and to the ‘brothers and sisters’ in the congregation. Now compare this with the older confiteor:
Extraordinary Form Confiteor:

I confess to Almighty God, to blessed Mary ever Virgin, to blessed Michael the Archangel, to blessed John the Baptist, to the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, to all the Saints, and to you, brethren, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed: through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. Therefore I beseech blessed Mary ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John the Baptist, the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, all the Saints, and you, brethren, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

I include these two confiteors to highlight the theological significance of the wording. The older prayer makes it clear that we confess our sins to God in the presence of the Saints and Angels, whereas the new prayer suggests that we confess our sins to God in the presence each other - not the Saints.

The Catholic belief is that we are all part of a communion of saints. Only God can forgive sins, but the Angels and Saints are saddened by our sins because they love and care for us. We admit our sinfulness to the Saints, address them directly, and ask for their prayers and help.

 

[sirach2v4]

You are asking for a theological answer, which means one that is based on scripture.

Of course, you know that when Jesus taught us to pray, He told us to pray directly to “our Father…” And, the Catholic Church teaches that this is the perfect prayer, that takes in all other prayers. (There’s a whole big section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, part 4, that deals with prayer.)

But, we believe (as expressed in the Nicene Creed) in the communion of saints. Somewhere in the book of Revelation, it says that the prayers of the saints rise like incense before the Lord. The Catholic Church recognizes saints as people who have been vetted by the Church as being in heaven, in all likelihood. And, so our prayers also go up to them for inspiration (prayer does not change God, it changes us) for our lives.

But, canonization of saints is almost a political process, with people (advocates) jockeying to get people recognized as saints. And, it costs a lot of money to go through the process of vetting for sainthood.

I don’t know why.

If the Church designates someone as a canonized (i.e. recognized) saint, I say, so what? Yes, they stand as examples of virtue to us, sometimes martyrs – dying for the faith. It’s like the Church saying that it’s OK to seek their heavenly intercession, as opposed to those who have not been canonized.

I think it also has to do with selling statues, building shrines, selling books, pilgrimages, bragging rights, and so forth. You see a lot more priests and nuns canonized than lay people, I think. There seems to be a lot of bias in the process.

As far as I know, Catholics are under no compulsion to seek the intercession of Mary or the saints, although this is regularly done and encouraged. There’s 150 psalms in the Old Testament, and I don’t think any of them are prayers to any saints, Old Testament or New Testament saints.

I think it is spiritually valuable to see what God has done in the lives of those people. I have a long way to go towards spiritual maturity, and maybe I’m not giving enough credit to the saints. The NT refers to saints as living people, not people who have died and are assumed to be in heaven. So, the text from Revelation may be referring to something else.

 

[Dempsey1919]

sirach2v4:

As far as I know, Catholics are under no compulsion to seek the intercession of Mary or the saints, although this is regularly done and encouraged.

You may be correct, but I think it would be impossible to be a Catholic and not seek the intercession of the Saints. For one thing, intercessory prayers are said throughout the Holy Mass. Furthermore, devotion to the Blessed Mother is not optional - it’s an integral part of Our Faith.

 

[Gertabelle]

You are asking for a theological answer, which means one that is based on scripture.

As a Catholic, we do not base our theology sola scriptura – on scripture alone. We follow the teachings of Holy Mother Church, the Church established by Christ Himself during His lifetime.

…But, we believe (as expressed in the Nicene Creed) in the communion of saints. Somewhere in the book of Revelation, it says that the prayers of the saints rise like incense before the Lord. The Catholic Church recognizes saints as people who have been vetted by the Church as being in heaven, in all likelihood. And, so our prayers also go up to them for inspiration (prayer does not change God, it changes us) for our lives.

I found this on the Catholic Answers website:

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

But, canonization of saints is almost a political process, with people (advocates) jockeying to get people recognized as saints. And, it costs a lot of money to go through the process of vetting for sainthood.

I don’t know why…

I think it also has to do with selling statues, building shrines, selling books, pilgrimages, bragging rights, and so forth. You see a lot more priests and nuns canonized than lay people, I think. There seems to be a lot of bias in the process.

The cost involved has to do with getting the word out about a person who has led a particularly holy life. There are prayer cards and books that need to be published and distributed. People need to be asked to report any special favors received from God after asking for the intercession of this holy man or woman.

Why are there more priests and religious Saints? Simple. Because they lived, served, and died in a Catholic community – a community that has the organization, resources, and contacts to spread the word about this holy life more easily than a bunch of lay people in the pews, who even if they have the means, probably don’t have the organization or contacts.

As far as I know, Catholics are under no compulsion to seek the intercession of Mary or the saints, although this is regularly done and encouraged. There’s 150 psalms in the Old Testament, and I don’t think any of them are prayers to any saints, Old Testament or New Testament saints.

No, but there are many Psalms in which we ask the angels to praise God on our behalf.

I think it is spiritually valuable to see what God has done in the lives of those people. I have a long way to go towards spiritual maturity, and maybe I’m not giving enough credit to the saints.

You certainly are not required to ever give a single thought to anyone the Church has canonized. But your cynicism may prevent you from actually learning from those who have gone before you, living lives of heroic virtue, and giving you examples for how to grow in holiness in your day-to-day life. :sad_yes:

May God bless you abundantly!

 

[dconklin]

But what about prayers directly to the saints, and not ultimately to God? For example, the common prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel is addressed to him directly, not for his prayers to God.

The Archangels have always had specific roles. Those roles did not cease when Jesus came or when the Church was founded.

 

[Genesis315]

Incidentally, Chapter 7 (VII) of Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium is all about this. It’s the same reason we can ask a fellow Christian on this earth for charitable aid other than just prayers. We are bound by a communion of charity both with those on earth and those in Heaven. Mutual charity shared between one another, which includes prayers but also all other goods and every kind service of God, is not broken by death, but with those in heaven, is rather strengthened and amplified because of their greater communion with God who is charity.