Why are there not 3 substances in God?

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My mind cannot think of a good reason why there are not 3 substances (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in God.

The reason is (basic I know) this: if there are 3 relations inhereing in God and these relations are all equally substance, then why aren’t there 3 substances -three Gods?

I think the problem is that I don’t understand the concept of relation fully.
 
A good book to get hold of is “Theology And Sanity” by Frank Sheed, published by Ignatius Press. It devotes more than 30 pages to The Blessed Trinity.

God is " only" Spirit; and His substance is utterly simple.
The Father is perfect, infinite, eternal.
The Father possesses the fullness of the Godhead.
The Fathers Selfknowlwdge is perfect, infinite, eternal. The Father knows Himself totally. The Fathers Selfknowledge is the Son.
The Son possesses the fullness of the Godhead because everything that the Father is is contained in His Selfknowledge.
The Son is NOT a separate God because He relies on the Father for His existence: He is generated by the Father in eternity.
The Father can`t exist without His Selfknowledge.
The Father and the Son love each other with a perfect, infinite, eternal Self-giving Love.
Each gives Himself totally to the Other; so that Love possesses the fullness of the Godhead.
That Love is the Holy Spirit.

No one Person can exist without the other Two
No Two can exist without the Third
All Three are perfectly, infinitely, eternally united.

Theres a heirarchy in the Godhead, with the Father at the "top". Theres generation (the Son) and procession (the Holy Spirit).
The three Persons are also referred to as “Principles”, the Father being the First or Generating Principle. We just don`t have adequate words…

Theres "only" one utterly simple Substance (Spirit). Theres “only” one Will.
Being “only” Spirit, theres no problem of three trying to occupy the same space. Theres no mathematics involved: ie 1=3.

This got messy… my mind isn`t thinking as straight as it should be…and limited edit time…
 
I recommend you to first resort to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Then ask more specifically what you do not understand.

CCC #232-289 - books.google.com/books?id=rEGcXz8GT3sC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA62#v=onepage&q&f=false
they are related to one another, yes.

But I’m confused on how relation is treated probably because I don’t quite know what it is.

A relation is something that has regard to another but it also inheres in a subject. And that which inheres in a subject is an accident. So relations have accidental properties and extrinsic-regarding properties. Now the former in God is not accidental but rather substantial. But again there are 3 relations so there are 3 accidental properties -so why aren’t there 3 Gods or substances?
 
What you call substance, we call persons. There are three seperate persons, one substance. A family is a good example of this. You have the parents and the child. Each are seperate persons, but they are all human.

Now Christ is the only begotten son of God. This means he wasnt created by God as that would make him different from God. He was in a sense born of God’s eternal mind which has been eternally been thinking of Christ (as pointed out by Sunna). The love between the Father and the Son is the Holy Spirit. Now God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit have no physical differences. They are all God, infinite, all-powerful, just, omnipotent, omnipresent etc. The only difference is that the Father beget the Son (this is excluding the Incarnation, crucifixion, etc.) The Holy Spirit is also the same as it comes from both of the Father and the Son and shares the same attributes. They all have the same attributes and are infinite and in all places at once but they come from different things. The Father was always there, Christ was always the thought coming from the Father, the Spirit was always the love between the Father and the Son. There are variations in the persons, but the substance their attributes, and the fact that they are in all places at once meaning they are in the sense the same. Hope this helps
 
What you call substance, we call persons. There are three seperate persons, one substance. A family is a good example of this. You have the parents and the child. Each are seperate persons, but they are all human.

Now Christ is the only begotten son of God. This means he wasnt created by God as that would make him different from God. He was in a sense born of God’s eternal mind which has been eternally been thinking of Christ (as pointed out by Sunna). The love between the Father and the Son is the Holy Spirit. Now God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit have no physical differences. They are all God, infinite, all-powerful, just, omnipotent, omnipresent etc. The only difference is that the Father beget the Son (this is excluding the Incarnation, crucifixion, etc.) The Holy Spirit is also the same as it comes from both of the Father and the Son and shares the same attributes. They all have the same attributes and are infinite and in all places at once but they come from different things. The Father was always there, Christ was always the thought coming from the Father, the Spirit was always the love between the Father and the Son. There are variations in the persons, but the substance their attributes, and the fact that they are in all places at once meaning they are in the sense the same. Hope this helps
But what keeps me from saying that just as there are three human beings, there are three Gods?

or to ask a different question, if relations are real and separate and substantial and indeed 3 (technically 4), then what allows me to say that there is only 1 substance? How can we come to that conclusion without jeapordizing the three-ness?
 
The difference is that humans have differences. God is not different in any way. The only differences are in the person. One existed from Eternity on its own, another is the eternal thought of the first which has existed forever, and the third is the love shared between them. They are only different in their roles, they are only different in their persons. If one had a different substance, then he wouldnt be God. To have a different substance would mean that one would have to differ in the characteristics that they all share. Their substance is that they are omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent, creators of the world who all share one will. For them to have different substances would mean they would be different yet they all share one will, all are omnipotent, omnipresent, etc. They are one mind with three persons in a sense. Hope this helps
 
The difference is that humans have differences. God is not different in any way. The only differences are in the person. One existed from Eternity on its own, another is the eternal thought of the first which has existed forever, and the third is the love shared between them. They are only different in their roles, they are only different in their persons. If one had a different substance, then he wouldnt be God. To have a different substance would mean that one would have to differ in the characteristics that they all share. Their substance is that they are omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent, creators of the world who all share one will. For them to have different substances would mean they would be different yet they all share one will, all are omnipotent, omnipresent, etc. They are one mind with three persons in a sense. Hope this helps
Yes that’s true, and also the persons (or relations) are equal to 3 and the three are each equal to substance. So again, given this, there has to be some idea that keeps us from inferring that there are 3 substances.

But what is it?
 
There are not three substances because then they would all be different. If they were three substances, they wouldnt all contain the same will making conflict and confusion a lot more probable, yet they all hold the same will. If there are three substances they wouldnt have the same attributes, one might be omnipotent while the other would be omnipresent. If there are three different substances then one is God and the others are cheap imitations. The others are not truly God. The others are nothing more than super-powered angels. But this is wrong. They are all God. They are a trinity, three persons, one substance. “I am in the Father and the Father is in me” They are the same will, the same omnipotency, the same omnipresence. The same substance. Three seperate persons, with three seperate roles but they all contain the same attributes and will. To say they each have an individual substance would be similar to saying one is the God of thunder and the other is the God of the sea. They all have the same substance meaning they all have the same will and power
 
My mind cannot think of a good reason why there are not 3 substances (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in God.

The reason is (basic I know) this: if there are 3 relations inhereing in God and these relations are all equally substance, then why aren’t there 3 substances -three Gods?

I think the problem is that I don’t understand the concept of relation fully.
FN:

Why; what’s wrong with your mind? 😛

You wont be surprised to find out that the Church has not made a definitive pronouncement on this subject either. So, I’d say that you were in good company!

Anyway, as I recall, the general notion of the Trinity is: three persons of one substance, each subsisting distinct in the self-same divine nature. Three persons of one substance, analogous, in a loose way, to perhaps ice, water, and steam. The words “person” and “nature” were commonly used to refer to the Trinity, and, as time elapsed, the ambiguities prevalent in those words were removed. Nature, for instance, is from the Latin nasci, which literally means, that which is produced (or born). And, person is from the Latin persona, which originally referred to the masks worn by Greek or Roman actors on stage. That significance was ultimately transferred to the actors themselves.

Ultimately, the words owned the precise meanings necessary to describe the Trinity - which is still perhaps the most profound mystery known to the Church, and is known, but not fully defined, precisely from Scripture. The rest of the creatures in the universe reveal their various natures by their activities, that is, their movements. E.g., birds fly, fish swim, and the plant is, as someone famous once said, “fixed on its peculiar spot [ordained] to draw nourishment, propagate, and rot.”

Our theologians glean from Scripture and say no more than can reasonably be said.

God bless,
jd
 
What do you think of the following comparison?

One human being has three distinct substances [mind, body, voice*].
*voice can be any form of communicating thought.
 
What do you think of the following comparison?

One human being has three distinct substances [mind, body, voice*].
*voice can be any form of communicating thought.
If voice simply a “thought”, then voice is no different from mind, right?
 
If voice simply a “thought”, then voice is no different from mind, right?
I am sorry for my lack of definition. Please consider this:

The “voice” is not responsible for thought, it is responsible for communication. The “voice” refers to any form of communicating thoughts with other beings. Other examples would include: Writing & Reading, Sign Language, Speech, Morse Code, etc.

Please note, though I can justify some credibility in this concept in relation to the Holy Trinity, this is meant to be a very simple application to understand how three different substances can exist in 1 being.
 
My mind cannot think of a good reason why there are not 3 substances (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in God.

The reason is (basic I know) this: if there are 3 relations inhereing in God and these relations are all equally substance, then why aren’t there 3 substances -three Gods?

I think the problem is that I don’t understand the concept of relation fully.
More than one distinct thing can subsist in but one thing. For example light is both a particle and a wave, so particleness and waveness subsist in but one thing, light.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality

So if in physical things two distinct properties can inhere in one thing, we have good reason to believe that in divine things, three distinct persons and relations can subsist in but one thing.
 
they are related to one another, yes.

But I’m confused on how relation is treated probably because I don’t quite know what it is.

A relation is something that has regard to another but it also inheres in a subject. And that which inheres in a subject is an accident. So relations have accidental properties and extrinsic-regarding properties. Now the former in God is not accidental but rather substantial. But again there are 3 relations so there are 3 accidental properties -so why aren’t there 3 Gods or substances?
It’s not the substance that inheres in the three persons, but the three persons that inhere or subsist in one substance. The one substance has three distinct properties which correspond to the three persons. Just as in physics a single particle of light has both particle and wave properties at the same time.
 
What do you think of the following comparison?

One human being has three distinct substances [mind, body, voice*].
*voice can be any form of communicating thought.
Jochoa:

Much better than mine. Thanks. And we do see our minds and bodies as a duality, don’t we? The voice is that which proceeds from the mind/body duality, to reach out, as it were, to interact and to interpersonally interact. Not bad at all.

God bless,
jd
 
Jochoa:

Much better than mine. Thanks. And we do see our minds and bodies as a duality, don’t we? The voice is that which proceeds from the mind/body duality, to reach out, as it were, to interact and to interpersonally interact. Not bad at all.

God bless,
jd
Thank you very much for your kind words. However, my words are equal to yours, we both justified God’s Law, only differently.

Thanks for spreading the Word and May peace be with you!

Jonathan Ochoa
 
In general the question still remains -why doesn’t three things (relations) which inhere in a substance, and which are all themselves substances, not three substances?

A better question would be how can three things which are all substance, not be three substances?

So far the other replies have just repeated what I already knew -but this specific question is beyond me.
 
In general the question still remains -why doesn’t three things (relations) which inhere in a substance, and which are all themselves substances, not three substances?

A better question would be how can three things which are all substance, not be three substances?

So far the other replies have just repeated what I already knew -but this specific question is beyond me.
I would be careful with taking “substance” literally, especially when someone claims that God is a “substance”. According to the most profound teachings of the Church, God is beyond “substance”.
 
I would like to try once more, if you will consider:
My mind cannot think of a good reason why there are not 3 substances (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in God.
The reason is (basic I know) this: if there are 3 relations inhereing in God and these relations are all equally substance, then why aren’t there 3 substances -three Gods?
I think the problem is that I don’t understand the concept of relation fully.
I believe the error is in your phrasing and wording. Initially, you state[paraphrased by me], “Why are there not 3 substances in 1 being?”
Next you you attempt to justify[paraphrased by me], “1 substance equals 1 God.”
A better question would be how can three things which are all substance, not be three substances?
So far the other replies have just repeated what I already knew -but this specific question is beyond me.
I would be cautious with word play. It creates confusion. Ex. Chihuahua=Dog, Bulldog=Dog, therefore Chihuahua=Bulldog

Following the same thinking applied to God.
God the Holy Spirit’s form has at least three substances: The Bible, Transfiguration, Beauty/Awesomeness of the physical universe and all its substances.
That would mean the substance of God is comprised of uncountable substances, and that is only counting the substances of the substance’s (God) substance (Holy Spirit)!

For simplicity, go to your initial statement [paraphrased], " There are 3 substances (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in 1 Being.(God).

I hope this helps, and I definitely look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks for the thought-provoking assignment!
 
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