Why are there sin designations in Catholicism?

[KathleenGee]

In my archdiocesan training, we didn’t go through any ‘mid management’ books, but strictly on church documents, and for various classes, we would simply go back to the same books, Vatican II documents and the catechism, the liturgy documents, some encyclicals, and parts of Canon Law…I was there parttime for 5.5 years.

When I go back to the catechism I always see new points of doctrine coming out to me. It makes me reflect that if I get the time, to review and may be even make time to read the Catechism again, doctrine by doctrine.

Our beliefs and worship is pretty holistic…I will never learn everything about my Catholic faith but keeping my unity with others perfects it…so to speak…may be wrong choice of words.

When you go to Mass, Sunday or daily, at the beginning part after the greeting, we all together, as the Lord to forgive us for our sins, as we publicly confess them through the Confiteor. The priest blesses and absolves us of all ordinary sin…but as you know, no matter how hard you try, you fail some times during the day.

Doesn’t the OT state a just man sins 7 times a day? Or S. Paul…the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak?..so we try our best to keep this life as our place of purgation enduring in the cross.

I asked a priest in the confessional one time about going to heaven.

If we embrace the crosses the Lord sends us every day, avoid mortal sin, and love the Lord and our neighbor…the priest replied we would go straight to heaven as we have no inclination to sin…

Thank God He gives us another day…each new day a day of mercy and forgiveness.

Tommy, very pleased with your questions and search for the fullness of Truth…

You may like to read some day the encyclical by John Paul II, ‘Veritatis Splendor’, the ‘Splendor of Truth’. We studied it in Catholic Morality. Here JPII talks about the conscience and detachment in terms of the spiritual life, drawing on the story of the rich young man who was seeking perfection, and how he was told to sell all his possessions and follow the Lord.

Detachment is a discipline in the Church to help free us of false attachments to creatures and draw closer to the Creator…asceticism…Catechism comes to points in going part by part on the Section on Prayer…using the Our Father.

The Church provides alot of help for the penitent.

I would add here, that the saving event of Jesus Christ is the one time event, but in the Catholic/Orthodox faith, this saving, redeeming event is happening in God’s time…the Mass is perpetually being celebrated 24/7 around the world. The Mass provides us directly from Our Lord His ongoing saving and redeeming ministry to us in His Word and Sacrament…so it is also most helpful and strengthening to avoid sin through the Mass where we encounter Jesus in Person – His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.

 

[lmelahn]

Thanks for taking the time to address the examples I gave. Much appreciated. I think I understand your reasoning and it seems pretty logical when I come to think about it.
There are some gray areas, but I assume if there is any doubt, a Catholic would ask his priest for clarification, I would think. Thanks again, lmelahn.

Well, I am a priest, so you are always welcome to ask for clarification, if I can be of any help .

But the fact is, ethics has a lot of grey areas, especially when you get down to concrete cases. So we just have to use your reason to the best of our ability, and then ask for help when we need to, and not just from priests: from anyone who has a good moral sense or has a good grasp or ethics and morality, or by reading good books (not to mention the Good Book), and so on.

 

[Tommy999]

Well, I am a priest, so you are always welcome to ask for clarification, if I can be of any help .

But the fact is, ethics has a lot of grey areas, especially when you get down to concrete cases. So we just have to use your reason to the best of our ability, and then ask for help when we need to, and not just from priests: from anyone who has a good moral sense or has a good grasp or ethics and morality, or by reading good books (not to mention the Good Book), and so on.

I am honored to meet your acquaintance, Father.

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks to all for all your responses. It has really helped me. Much appreciated.

 

[eddie_too]

it might help if we view ourselves, human beings, as having, by our very nature, a relationship with almighty God.

if we look at it like that and compare it to our relationships with other human beings, it may give us insight in to the nature of both sin and grace.

does every act of offense that we may inflict on another person end our relationship with that person?

do some of our offensive acts weaken our relationships while others can actually end them until we reconcile ourselves to the person we have offended?

in my spiritual life, that is how I review my day. how have my actions impacted my relationship with God?

as for Billy Graham. I see him as a devout and committed Christian who has dedicated himself to the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the well-being of Graham’s fellow men. for this he is to be highly commended and I myself belief he will be rewarded for his service to Christ and the Gospel so long as he has not acted in his service while knowing that the RCC contains the fullness of God’s revelations to mankind.

however, even accepting Graham has acted with good faith, his preaching can be, has been and still is (he is still alive, right?) deficient because of his invincible ignorance about the fullness of the faith. as a consequence, we will find theological errors in his preaching. his understanding of sin and grace lacks some of the knowledge that the RCC possesses and consequently contains errors.

his statement about all sin separating us from God is one of those errors. this concept that any sin severs our relationship with God has possible negative consequence. it could lead to despair because, for most people, committing oneself to Jesus does not put an end to our sinful actions.

another weakness in the Graham style of Christianity is also related to his concept of sin and grace. when we commit a grave (mortal) sin, the kind that destroys our relationship with God, how do we repair that damage?

I am not very familiar with Graham’s preaching and he may answer that question somewhere in it. but, I believe it is an important question. it is an issue for many brands of Protestantism and leads to a related question. that being, if we do not need a mechanism for restoring our relationship with God after committing ourselves to Jesus why should we not continue to commit mortal sins, i.e. murder, fornication, adultery, slander, etc.? are we not in effect remaining in our sins and existing with the fact that our relationship with God has been destroyed? is that the peace of Jesus that we received through our acceptance of His Gospel? if we have placed our faith in Jesus, is not it a reality that when we sin, those sins impact our souls negatively. our souls are the source of our intellects (minds) and our free wills. sin impacts our intellects by causing guilt and perhaps anxiety and in its extreme sin can cause despair. sin impacts our free wills by diminishing our ability to resist future temptations and causing a certain ennui within us.

our faith in Jesus should make our sins a big deal because it is sin that damages and can destroy our relationship with Jesus that began with our first “I believe”.

just my two cents.

 

[KathleenGee]

What kept me on the straight and narrow were images of people in sin from my old Baltiore Catechism. I was in college in the late 60’s to early 70’s. There was like this big invisible suction trying to pull me into the vice and sex revolution of those times. Today I cannot stand to listen to the music or movies of that era.

My parents called me every weekend.

And I recall the cartoon images of pride, lust, envy, stealing, hate, etc. They stood out in my mind more than anything. Guess I am more of a visual person.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I am a protestant who was brought up to believe that all sin separates us from God and that we are all sinners, except for Jesus Christ, of course.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God – Romans 3:23

I understand there is a differentiation in Catholicism between ‘Venial’ and ‘Mortal’ sins, with venial being more minor sin while mortal sins are more serious.

1. Why is there a distinction made between types of sin?
2. Can you give some biblical examples that support this venial and mortal distinction of sins?
3. How can the average Catholic know if he is committing a venial sin or a mortal one?

I will assume that breaking any of the Ten Commandments would be a mortal sin, correct?

I realize this is probably Catholicism 101 to many of you but I don’t have a background in it so I appreciate your patience and understanding as I strive to grow in my understanding of Catholicism.

For example, for a Catholic, are these venial or mortal sins and how can you tell?

– Yelling at your wife or kids in an uncharitable way
– Getting drunk
– Gossiping
– Using Profanity
– Premarital sex
– Taking illegal drugs (marijuana, etc)
– Speeding on the highway or city street
– Seeing someone stranded on the side of the road and not doing anything to help.
– Stealing a candy bar from a convenience store
– Stealing a car left running in a convenience store parking lot
– Watching ‘Breakfast at Wimbledon’ on TV instead of attending church one Sunday.
– Playing on the computer for a bit instead of working during working hours at your job.

Thanks for your help in understanding the concept or venial versus mortal sins.:tiphat:

You’ve got the basic understanding correct in that mortal sins tend to be more serious than venial sins. Generally mortal sins required reconcilation and penance in Catholic terms, but if we were asked to pin down the difference between mortal sins and venial sins, I think most of us would have a hard time doing so.

However a mortal sin is more likely to lead to perdition if you don’t do something about it, particularly if it grows to become a habit.

Using “Gossiping” as an example, that could be venial or mortal. If you saw someone do something silly, and told others about it, and if you had no sinister intent, then possibly it would be venial

But if you started gossiping about somebody with a definite attempt to injure that person’s reputation (what I think the church calls calumny), then that would be mortal sin. You would run a real risk of being condemned if you don’t confess it and move on.

Looking at your list, some are distinctly mortal. Others are venial, but they could all become mortal if you weren’t careful. If you’re playing games on your computer at work, and your job is to watch traffic control camera videos to avoid accidents, and if your frivolity caused a bad or fatal accident, I think you’d have committed a mortal sin.

Stealing a candy bar might not seem a big deal, but it’s likely to lead to bigger things. And you have broken God’s moral law - you shall not steal. So it’s mortal, trivial as it seems.

If you’ve got a guilty conscience, go and see a priest. That’s the safest bet.

What is different about Protestantism and Catholicism is that in the Catholic belief, the priest has the ability to forgive sins, but it’s done via the Holy Spirit. The priest is merely the agent. It follows on from Christ’s statement to the apostles -

John 20:22-23

And when He had said this, He breathed on them (Apostles) and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Since we believe in Apostolic succession, we believe this authority has been handed on down the centuries from the original Apostles until now and as long as the Church continues. Christ didn’t say that just for the benefit of twelve long dead disciples. It’s like the promise to Peter that he would be the Rock on which the Church was founded. Christ wasn’t saying that just for one long-deceased fisherman’s benefit either.

Christ was God in the Flesh, and when He said something, it had eternal ramifications.

 

[KathleenGee]

I assisted at RCIA … and we had this couple…the wife was a Lutheran and on fire to become a Catholic, her husband Episcopalian and he was hesitant.

Anyway, when we came to the section on the sacrament of penance, when the pastor mentioned about them coming to him for confession…they both looked at him…like ‘you so puny?’

Anyway, we shared that when alot of people first go in, we are aware of the pastor as a person and it is embarrassing to open up…and I have this after almost 60 years of going.

But when I get going in revealing my sins…I am no longer considering the priest…I am presenting my sins to the Lord for His forgiveness…and when the priest gives absolution…the presence and power of Christ is so strong and holy…that going out afterwards…I am feeling so balanced and all is right with the world.

We have to keep our eyes on the Lord and always work to examine our conscience and become more knowledgeable in what is pleasing to God and what offends Him and how to live better each day.

 

[zz912]

A few other Scripture references:

Luke 12:47-48: “And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.” (cf. Lev. 5:17, Lk. 23:34)

John 19:11: “’. . . he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.’”

Acts 17:30: “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,” (cf. Rom. 3:25)

1 Timothy 1:13: “though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and insulted him; but I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief.”

Hebrews 10:26: “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,”

 

[KathleenGee]

I like these brilliant and simple Scripture quotes that touch on so much on the degrees of sin…good post!

 

[manualman]

Protestants are correct to note that ANY degree of sin is enough to disrupt Original Innocence and separate us from God. This is why the mere action of taking a bite out of one particular fruit was enough to bring death and destruction into the world! From that point on, ALL humanity was doomed without a new infusion of saving Grace from God, which culminated in the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus.

So if we were Adam and Eve, pre-fall, the protestant notion would be correct. Now we get to the major differences between evangelical protestant and catholic ideas of what a Christian IS.

For the evangelical protestant (can I say EP?), all Christians go to heaven by definition. Salvation is a singular moment in life after which salvation is assured. Sins still happen, but are irrelevant because they are covered by the righteousness of Christ. Catholics call this all absurd, of course, because it implies both a lack of free will after the “salvation event” and implies that God deludes himself into believing we are righteous when we objectively aren’t. But in the EP view, all sins are mortal before faith in Christ and all sins are essentially venial after faith in Christ. They just don’t use this vocabulary.

Catholics understand salvation as a lifetime, not an event. We become Christians via a gift of Grace at baptism, but must continue to accept and grow in that Grace through a lifetime. This redeemed life in Christ includes free will. Salvation cannot be pried away from us (as I’m sure you’re ready with a verse to show me), but it can be thrown away. That’s what mortal sin is: the conscious decision to reject God by committing a serious sin in full knowledge and freedom. A venial sin is a vestige of fallenness that we haven’t yet outgrown in our life in Grace, but does not constitute a full, free and knowing consent to reject God. Because Grace is greater than Original Innocence, the consequences are not severe like they were for Adam. Venial sin doesn’t exist without Christ. It only makes sense if you first understand how God has given us Grace while retaining our free will.

You can’t really make a list of mortal sins because it depends on interior things as well. Addiction, habits and other factors can reduce people’s freedom to resist temptation. It gets tricky to discern. In the end, catholics should err on the side of caution and confess what is probably mortal and even much that is venial.

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks to all recent posters, including Eddie Too, Bob Crowley, zz912 (especially for those scriptural references), KathleenGee (you’ve answered a lot of my threads over the past several months to the point I am beginning to think you are part human and part guardian angel like Clarence in ‘It’s a Wonderful Life’. :angel1: ).

Finally, thank you very much, Manualman. That was an excellent and very understandable synopsis of the evangelical protestant position on sins and the Catholic one. I am now convinced there is a valid case for classifying sins into mortal and venial sins and it makes logical sense. I’m slowly but surely running out of reasons why I shouldn’t become a Catholic some day.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that, everyone. :tiphat:

Follow up question: (theoretical in nature)

Question 1a): If a Catholic commits a mortal sin or a potential mortal sin on a Thursday, let’s say, but decides to wait until Saturday night or Sunday to confess but dies in a car accident or something similar before going to Reconciliation. Would he/she go to hell since they died in a state of mortal sin, or at least thought they did?

1b) What about if that same person had prayed to God and asked for forgiveness shortly after the sin but died in the accident before going to receive absolution from a priest. Would that be considered “forgiveness by desire” (kind of like baptism by desire but for forgiveness) or would they still be destined to hell, or would they go to purgatory?

Just wanting to make sure I fully understand the sin designations correctly.

By the way, Manualman, I take a small issue with one thing you said about your understanding of the EP position, which was, “*Sins still happen, but are irrelevant because they are covered by the righteousness of Christ. Catholics call this all absurd, of course, because it implies both a lack of free will after the “salvation event” and implies that God deludes himself into believing we are righteous when we objectively aren’t”. *

I don’t think any protestant who I know considers sins to be irrelevant. In fact, Romans 6:1-2 and Romans 6:15-23 teach us that if we are in Christ, we will no longer be slaves to sin nor should we continue to sin so that grace may increase or abound.

By the way, I do not subscribe to the OSAS doctrine that some Calvinists and others promote. I never have and never will. That one has never made sense to me.

However, I often sometimes wonder if the mortal/venial designation contributes to Catholics becoming Scrupulous and keeps some in a state of worry over whether they are in a state of grace or not. If I were a Catholic, I would be concerned about that and possibly running to a priest to confess whenever I was in doubt over a sin whereas as a protestant, I currently just confess to God in a contrite and repentant spirit and let Him sort it out because it is beyond my current ability to do so.

 

[KathleenGee]

God looks at our intent…I know some who think they are in mortal sin…they go to a church that has daily confessions so it serves the metropolitan area.

So that is why God alone can judge…our intentions and our sincere repentance to sin…otherwise we fall into legalism…and I would add, scrupulosity…some thing priests are trained to pick up real fast in a penitent.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Thanks to all recent posters, including Eddie Too, Bob Crowley, zz912 (especially for those scriptural references), KathleenGee (you’ve answered a lot of my threads over the past several months to the point I am beginning to think you are part human and part guardian angel like Clarence in ‘It’s a Wonderful Life’. :angel1: ).

Finally, thank you very much, Manualman. That was an excellent and very understandable synopsis of the evangelical protestant position on sins and the Catholic one. I am now convinced there is a valid case for classifying sins into mortal and venial sins and it makes logical sense. I’m slowly but surely running out of reasons why I shouldn’t become a Catholic some day.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that, everyone. :tiphat:

Follow up question: (theoretical in nature)

Question 1a): If a Catholic commits a mortal sin or a potential mortal sin on a Thursday, let’s say, but decides to wait until Saturday night or Sunday to confess but dies in a car accident or something similar before going to Reconciliation. Would he/she go to hell since they died in a state of mortal sin, or at least thought they did?

1b) What about if that same person had prayed to God and asked for forgiveness shortly after the sin but died in the accident before going to receive absolution from a priest. Would that be considered “forgiveness by desire” (kind of like baptism by desire but for forgiveness) or would they still be destined to hell, or would they go to purgatory?

Just wanting to make sure I fully understand the sin designations correctly.

By the way, Manualman, I take a small issue with one thing you said about your understanding of the EP position, which was, “*Sins still happen, but are irrelevant *because they are covered by the righteousness of Christ. Catholics call this all absurd, of course, because it implies both a lack of free will after the “salvation event” and implies that God deludes himself into believing we are righteous when we objectively aren’t”.

I don’t think any protestant who I know considers sins to be irrelevant. In fact, Romans 6:1-2 and Romans 6:15-23 teach us that if we are in Christ, we will no longer be slaves to sin nor should we continue to sin so that grace may increase or abound.

By the way, I do not subscribe to the OSAS doctrine that some Calvinists and others promote. I never have and never will. That one has never made sense to me.

However, I often sometimes wonder if the mortal/venial designation contributes to Catholics becoming Scrupulous and keeps some in a state of worry over whether they are in a state of grace or not. If I were a Catholic, I would be concerned about that and possibly running to a priest to confess whenever I was in doubt over a sin whereas as a protestant, I currently just confess to God in a contrite and repentant spirit and let Him sort it out because it is beyond my current ability to do so.

So, in order to be forgiven of a mortal sin, one must humbly repent of it. That’s it. Catholicism isn’t a game or a recipe book, it’s about conditioning and converting our hearts.

So, in your example, you are on the right track. If one commits a mortal sin, they should ask God sincerely for forgiveness and desire to change their life. They then, in obedience to God must go to confession to reconcile formally with God and the Church. This should be done as soon as one is able. But if one dies before hand or on the way or whatever, then their desire and sincerity has already reconciled them to God.

The person that puts off confession or doesn’t go is showing by their actions that they are not truly repentant, that they do not submit to God and the church, and hence they cannot be forgiven.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Tommy…I go fast here as my time is increasingly limited…I missed the reference about Clarence…well, no…just that I pick up your heart and spirit and sense you are most centered…

A good candidate for communion!..our first goal as Catholics being that we seek communion with the Holy Trinity…because of our sins and imperfections…a life long conversion process.

You can go into any Catholic parish and find out that everyone is on different faith levels…and just as many opinions. When we enter Mass, we enter into the presence of God, His Eternal Being, that transcends space and time…and gradually…one day at a time, we grow closer to the Lord both individually as well as Church.

When one commits serious and grave sin, one is cut off from this communion, and likewise affects and fragments the entire Mystical Body of Christ of the baptized. So to re enter, one needs to go to the sacrament of confession to be re connected to the sacrament of the Eucharist.

You may like to look at the link, www.calledtocommunion.com if I haven’t referred it before.

Happy New Year and keep us posted on your whereabouts…

 

[StevenFrancis]

I haven’t read through the entire thread, so it this is a repeat, sorry. I think you’ll find the answers to most of your questions right here:

Catechism of the Catholic Church (parsed):
Full txt here: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm

II. THE DEFINITION OF SIN

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience;… (Continued)

1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."1…it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become “like gods,”…Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125

1851 It is precisely in the Passion, when the mercy of Christ is about to vanquish it, that sin most clearly manifests its violence and its many forms: unbelief, murderous hatred, shunning and mockery by the leaders and the people, Pilate’s cowardice and the cruelty of the soldiers, Judas’ betrayal - so bitter to Jesus, Peter’s denial and the disciples’ flight. However, at the very hour of darkness, the hour of the prince of this world,126 the sacrifice of Christ secretly becomes the source from which the forgiveness of our sins will pour forth inexhaustibly.

III. THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF SINS

1852 There are a great many kinds of sins.*** Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: …7***

1853 Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."128 But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.

IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN

1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

***1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

---

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

…

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter … committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man:…132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: …

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. …

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. ;;;

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; …

While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. …if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; …What then is our hope? Above all, confession.135
1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

I’ll work on some scripture passage for you.

Peace,
Steve

 

[manualman]

Follow up question: (theoretical in nature)

Question 1a): If a Catholic commits a mortal sin or a potential mortal sin on a Thursday, let’s say, but decides to wait until Saturday night or Sunday to confess but dies in a car accident or something similar before going to Reconciliation. Would he/she go to hell since they died in a state of mortal sin, or at least thought they did?

1b) What about if that same person had prayed to God and asked for forgiveness shortly after the sin but died in the accident before going to receive absolution from a priest. Would that be considered “forgiveness by desire” (kind of like baptism by desire but for forgiveness) or would they still be destined to hell, or would they go to purgatory?

Just wanting to make sure I fully understand the sin designations correctly.

By the way, Manualman, I take a small issue with one thing you said about your understanding of the EP position, which was, “*Sins still happen, but are irrelevant *because they are covered by the righteousness of Christ. Catholics call this all absurd, of course, because it implies both a lack of free will after the “salvation event” and implies that God deludes himself into believing we are righteous when we objectively aren’t”.

I don’t think any protestant who I know considers sins to be irrelevant. In fact, Romans 6:1-2 and Romans 6:15-23 teach us that if we are in Christ, we will no longer be slaves to sin nor should we continue to sin so that grace may increase or abound.

By the way, I do not subscribe to the OSAS doctrine that some Calvinists and others promote. I never have and never will. That one has never made sense to me.

However, I often sometimes wonder if the mortal/venial designation contributes to Catholics becoming Scrupulous and keeps some in a state of worry over whether they are in a state of grace or not. If I were a Catholic, I would be concerned about that and possibly running to a priest to confess whenever I was in doubt over a sin whereas as a protestant, I currently just confess to God in a contrite and repentant spirit and let Him sort it out because it is beyond my current ability to do so.

From last to first,

You’re right, of course that EP folk don’t REALLY dismiss the seriousness of sin. It’s just that their theological system TENDS in that direction due to its flaws. I think you’re partially on to something. You rarely meet an EP of any sort who suffers from scrupulosity. Catholics who delve excessively deep into rules and theology to the neglect of relationship with Christ can suffer that. But there’s a flip side. You rarely meet a practicing catholic (frequent mass, frequent confession, daily prayers, etc) who suffers from the malady of “Cheap Grace.” That seems to be a pitfall into which EPs (and some lax catholics) fall into. Ditches on either side of the straight and narrow, so to speak.

On your first question, the key to understanding sacraments is that God gave them to us as a gift to us, not as a shackle on His own freedom. Fallen human nature is such that we benefit from knowing of the tangible, sensible reality of Grace given through the sacraments and we also benefit from the discipline of being bound to seek them. But that duty is one WE owe to God, not one that God is bound to.

In other words, I do not get to blow off confessing serious sin in my life because it is inconvenient to get to until next week. I’m morally bound to seek it out as soon as reasonably possible. But God Himself isn’t forbidden from forgiving me if legitimate circumstances prevented me from getting there before being run over by the bus! The disciplinary rules are binding on us, not on Him.

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks for the additional replies to help me gain a better understanding of mortal and venial sins, Jon S, Kathleen, StevenFrancis, and Manualman. Very helpful indeed.

One follow up question to Manualman. I’m not sure what you mean by “the malady of cheap grace”. Can you elaborate on that and perhaps provide an example or two of it?

I’ve never heard that term before.

By the way, when Catholics go to Reconciliation, what kinds of typical penances are given? Can you provide a few examples? I would assume there would be more serious penance for mortal versus venial sin.

I remember a Catholic friend of mine once alluded to having to recite the Rosary x amount of times and say x amount of ‘Our Fathers’ as penance for something he had done (this was back in high school a long, long time ago).

 

[Jon_S_1]

Thanks for the additional replies to help me gain a better understanding of mortal and venial sins, Jon S, Kathleen, StevenFrancis, and Manualman. Very helpful indeed.

One follow up question to Manualman. I’m not sure what you mean by “the malady of cheap grace”. Can you elaborate on that and perhaps provide an example or two of it?

I’ve never heard that term before.

By the way, when Catholics go to Reconciliation, what kinds of penances are given? Can you provide a few examples? I would assume there would be more penance for mortal versus venial sin.

I remember a Catholic friend of mine once alluded to having to recite the Rosary x amount of times and say x amount of ‘Our Fathers’ as penance for something he had done (this was back in high school a long, long time ago).

Here are some examples of penance ive had:

Say our father and/or Hail Mary x times. (Common)
Spend time in prayer before the Blessed Sacrament
Pray for a person every day
Find someone you don’t get along with and do an act of charity for them
Spend time meditating on Gods mercy before an icon in the church
Read a homily and pray about its message
Review a specific scripture and meditate on it.

I had a friend who told me he hadn’t been to confession in a long time and the priest gave him too light a penance in my friends opinion so he asked for a larger penance, the priest told him, “who are you to question God’s mercy?”

humbling moment for him.

 

[Tommy999]

Here are some examples of penance ive had:

Say our father and/or Hail Mary x times. (Common)
Spend time in prayer before the Blessed Sacrament
Pray for a person every day
Find someone you don’t get along with and do an act of charity for them
Spend time meditating on Gods mercy before an icon in the church
Read a homily and pray about its message
Review a specific scripture and meditate on it.

I had a friend who told me he hadn’t been to confession in a long time and the priest gave him too light a penance in my friends opinion so he asked for a larger penance, the priest told him, “who are you to question God’s mercy?”

humbling moment for him.

Those penances sound very charitable and merciful indeed, Jon. I was figuring there would be more to it than that, like go make restitution to the person you offended, go to the store from where you had stolen something a long time ago and make restitution, etc.