Why are there sin designations in Catholicism?

[manualman]

Penance in my experience rarely involves direct restitution to a person harmed. Rather, it focuses on strengthening the relationship with God from whom Grace comes. This might (speculating here) be because the protestant reformation has reminded priests to be careful that people not get the impression that their penance “earns” them forgiveness somehow.

“Cheap Grace” is a buzzword coined by protestants to describe the results of a particular kind of theological problem in the EP world. Here is a better description by what appears to be an EP website (I know little about the site and don’t necessarily endorse it) gotquestions.org/cheap-grace.html

While the website noted seems to agree that Cheap Grace is a problem, it fails to recognize where it comes from. In combination with fallen human nature, Cheap Grace is what happens when faith is held up as the only trigger of salvation (and as a single event) and “works” (badly defined) are a marker that Grace has been received, but not something to strive after. The problem is that even with Grace, virtue doesn’t develop all by itself. You have to consent to it and cooperate with it every step of the way. Perhaps you’ve noticed. I sure have. I’m still a lazy bum after all these years!

Protestants are right to insist that salvation is impossible without Grace. We’ve always agreed. But just like a hiker trapped in a steep canyon, we have to hold onto Grace the way the hiker must cling to the rescue rope when it’s tossed to him. Clinging to a rope while being hauled up in NO way means the hiker “rescued himself” nor does the Christian have anything to boast of by clinging to Grace by cultivating virtue. But similarly, the hiker who shouts out for help while refusing to grasp the rope is just a fool, much like the Cheap Grace Christian who professes faith in Christ while being unwilling to repent of sin.

 

[Tommy999]

Penance in my experience rarely involves direct restitution to a person harmed. Rather, it focuses on strengthening the relationship with God from whom Grace comes. This might (speculating here) be because the protestant reformation has reminded priests to be careful that people not get the impression that their penance “earns” them forgiveness somehow.

“Cheap Grace” is a buzzword coined by protestants to describe the results of a particular kind of theological problem in the EP world. Here is a better description by what appears to be an EP website (I know little about the site and don’t necessarily endorse it) gotquestions.org/cheap-grace.html

While the website noted seems to agree that Cheap Grace is a problem, it fails to recognize where it comes from. In combination with fallen human nature, Cheap Grace is what happens when faith is held up as the only trigger of salvation (and as a single event) and “works” (badly defined) are a marker that Grace has been received, but not something to strive after. The problem is that even with Grace, virtue doesn’t develop all by itself. You have to consent to it and cooperate with it every step of the way. Perhaps you’ve noticed. I sure have. I’m still a lazy bum after all these years!

Protestants are right to insist that salvation is impossible without Grace. We’ve always agreed. But just like a hiker trapped in a steep canyon, we have to hold onto Grace the way the hiker must cling to the rescue rope when it’s tossed to him. Clinging to a rope while being hauled up in NO way means the hiker “rescued himself” nor does the Christian have anything to boast of by clinging to Grace by cultivating virtue. But similarly, the hiker who shouts out for help while refusing to grasp the rope is just a fool, much like the Cheap Grace Christian who professes faith in Christ while being unwilling to repent of sin.

I like and understand your analogy, Manualman. Also, thanks for the link on “Cheap Grace”. I agree with you that it would be more of a pitfall for protestants than Catholics, whereas I could see scrupulosity as more of a pitfall for Catholics.

My favorite salvation analogy is that of a drowning man out in the ocean who gets thrown a lifesaving rope from an awaiting ship. He can exclaim “I am saved” when he receives and grabs securely to the rope, but he is not fully saved until he reaches the safety of the boat as he works with the rescuer who is saving him. Plus, he can always willingly let go of the rope and lose his salvation if he so chooses or by doing something totally stupid, but who would want to do such a thing?

Not sure how theological it is but this is how I understood salvation and maintaining grace from the EP perspective.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thanks for the additional replies to help me gain a better understanding of mortal and venial sins, Jon S, Kathleen, StevenFrancis, and Manualman. Very helpful indeed.

One follow up question to Manualman. I’m not sure what you mean by “the malady of cheap grace”. Can you elaborate on that and perhaps provide an example or two of it?

I’ve never heard that term before.

By the way, when Catholics go to Reconciliation, what kinds of typical penances are given? Can you provide a few examples? I would assume there would be more serious penance for mortal versus venial sin.

I remember a Catholic friend of mine once alluded to having to recite the Rosary x amount of times and say x amount of ‘Our Fathers’ as penance for something he had done (this was back in high school a long, long time ago).

Question: “What is cheap grace?”

Answer: The term “cheap grace” can be traced back to a book written by German theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, called The Cost of Discipleship, published in 1937. In that book, Bonhoeffer defined “cheap grace” as “the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ.” Notice what is emphasized in Bonhoeffer’s definition of cheap grace and what is de-emphasized. The emphasis is on the benefits of Christianity without the costs involved; hence, the adjective cheap to describe it.

Read more: gotquestions.org/cheap-grace.html#ixzz3NiFRniCF

Bonhoeffer was eventually killed by the Nazis during World War II.

 

[Brandall]

Thanks for the additional replies to help me gain a better understanding of mortal and venial sins, Jon S, Kathleen, StevenFrancis, and Manualman. Very helpful indeed.

One follow up question to Manualman. I’m not sure what you mean by “the malady of cheap grace”. Can you elaborate on that and perhaps provide an example or two of it?

I’ve never heard that term before.

By the way, when Catholics go to Reconciliation, what kinds of typical penances are given? Can you provide a few examples? I would assume there would be more serious penance for mortal versus venial sin.

I remember a Catholic friend of mine once alluded to having to recite the Rosary x amount of times and say x amount of ‘Our Fathers’ as penance for something he had done (this was back in high school a long, long time ago).

I’ve only been a Catholic since Easter and I’ve gotten the following for penance:
Decade of the Rosary
Reading a particular passage and reflecting on it.
Reading of the Nicene Creed and reflecting on it.
Reading of the Confiteor and reflecting on it.
Praying for a particular number of minutes at certain times of the day.

A decade of the Rosary seems to be a catchall, the other readings were given due to particular issues I faced.

Confession sounds like an incredibly stressful process until you actually experience it. It isn’t just about bringing up your sins for forgiveness, each time is like a mini counseling session.

My Pastor is very patient and has never rushed me. Besides discussing sin, I might mention when my prayer life is suffering or I’m suffering spiritually. He always has advice that is helpful and I’m grateful for the opportunity to meet with him at those times.

Regularity is key. Though I got a bit lax during the holidays, I prefer to go once a week. That doesn’t always work out but that schedule suits me the best. Since my first confession, I found that the cleansing effect of confession makes me a stronger Christian. The more often I go, the better I’m able to avoid temptation to sin. It is a necessary ingredient that energizes my Christianity and something that had been found my earlier in my life.

 

[Tommy999]

Question: “What is cheap grace?”

Answer: The term “cheap grace” can be traced back to a book written by German theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, called The Cost of Discipleship, published in 1937. In that book, Bonhoeffer defined “cheap grace” as “the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ.” Notice what is emphasized in Bonhoeffer’s definition of cheap grace and what is de-emphasized. The emphasis is on the benefits of Christianity without the costs involved; hence, the adjective cheap to describe it.

Read more: gotquestions.org/cheap-grace.html#ixzz3NiFRniCF

Bonhoeffer was eventually killed by the Nazis during World War II.

Thanks for the clarification of “cheap grace”, Randy.

If I understand the term correctly, I would tend to think that anyone who follows the philosophy of “cheap grace” is more of a counterfeit Christian than a real one, but that’s just my take on it but will leave it to God to decide.

It’s like saying you’re an apple tree but cannot produce any apples when push comes to shove.

 

[Tommy999]

I’ve only been a Catholic since Easter and I’ve gotten the following for penance:
Decade of the Rosary
Reading a particular passage and reflecting on it.
Reading of the Nicene Creed and reflecting on it.
Reading of the Confiteor and reflecting on it.
Praying for a particular number of minutes at certain times of the day.

A decade of the Rosary seems to be a catchall, the other readings were given due to particular issues I faced.

Confession sounds like an incredibly stressful process until you actually experience it. It isn’t just about bringing up your sins for forgiveness, each time is like a mini counseling session.

My Pastor is very patient and has never rushed me. Besides discussing sin, I might mention when my prayer life is suffering or I’m suffering spiritually. He always has advice that is helpful and I’m grateful for the opportunity to meet with him at those times.

Regularity is key. Though I got a bit lax during the holidays, I prefer to go once a week. That doesn’t always work out but that schedule suits me the best. Since my first confession, I found that the cleansing effect of confession makes me a stronger Christian. The more often I go, the better I’m able to avoid temptation to sin. It is a necessary ingredient that energizes my Christianity and something that had been found my earlier in my life.

Thanks for explaining what happens at confession and how it works for you, Brandall. Although I have never been to a Catholic confession, I sense it would be a cleansing experience that would help me be a stronger Christian for all the aspects you mentioned, as well as in the area of accountability for our sins.

However, when you say, “Decade of the Rosary” are you literally having to say the Rosary a certain number of times over a ten year period or does it have another meaning?
Just curious.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thanks for the clarification of “cheap grace”, Randy.

If I understand the term correctly, I would tend to think that anyone who follows the philosophy of “cheap grace” is more of a counterfeit Christian than a real one, but that’s just my take on it but will leave it to God to decide.

It’s like saying you’re an apple tree but cannot produce any apples when push comes to shove.

But the problem is that “cheap grace” causes many people to think they are “okay” when, in fact, their souls may be in jeopardy. So, they think they are real Christians when that is very much in doubt by virtue of their lifestyles and choices, etc.

 

[Brandall]

Thanks for explaining what happens at confession and how it works for you, Brandall. Although I have never been to a Catholic confession, I sense it would be a cleansing experience that would help me be a stronger Christian for all the aspects you mentioned, as well as in the area of accountability for our sins.

However, when you say, “Decade of the Rosary” are you literally having to say the Rosary a certain number of times over a ten year period or does it have another meaning?
Just curious.

The Rosary is made in five sections and each section has 10 hail Mary’s. Each of those sections is called a decade so therefore, five decades. Saying a decade of the Rosary is 1 Our Father, 10 Hail Mary’s and 1 Glory Be.

Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

After confession, I will kneel and do my penance there. Then when I walk out of the building, I have a freshly cleansed and much stronger soul.

 

[Tommy999]

The Rosary is made in five sections and each section has 10 hail Mary’s. Each of those sections is called a decade so therefore, five decades. Saying a decade of the Rosary is 1 Our Father, 10 Hail Mary’s and 1 Glory Be.

Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

After confession, I will kneel and do my penance there. Then when I walk out of the building, I have a freshly cleansed and much stronger soul.

Got it, Brandall. That makes a lot of more sense after you explain and I am somewhat relieved to know that a decade does not mean doing a certain penance that lasts for 10 years.

 

[Robyn_p]

However, I often sometimes wonder if the mortal/venial designation contributes to Catholics becoming Scrupulous and keeps some in a state of worry over whether they are in a state of grace or not. If I were a Catholic, I would be concerned about that and possibly running to a priest to confess whenever I was in doubt over a sin whereas as a protestant, I currently just confess to God in a contrite and repentant spirit and let Him sort it out because it is beyond my current ability to do so.

Hi Tommy!

Coming from someone who fought scrupulosity myself, I’m convinced that rather than contributing to my scruples, the mortal/venial sin distinction actually helped me in conquering them, and kept me from completely giving up on living a virtuous life. Because I was already consumed with worry about sin, if I was taught that every single sin, no matter how small, would have eternally separated me from God, I would have been destroyed.

The thing about scrupulosity is it gives a person a distorted view of God. God is seen as a task master who is just looking to punish us rather than a loving Father looking to heal us. Making all sins equal would only increase the amount of worry and stress a scrupulous person suffers, and could even push them away from God. I’ve read too many stories about atheists who grew up in Christian families that believed all sins to be the same, and all of them say they constantly felt like they were going to be damned to hell no matter what they did. Which is why they ended up rejecting the faith.

That’s where the distinction between mortal and venial sin would have prevented so much pain and heartache. Because there obviously is a difference between not taking out the garbage when your parents ask and murdering someone. We need that distinction, otherwise people will end up being forced into despair.

Anyways, just wanted to share my perspective on that. Hope that made a little sense.

 

[Tommy999]

Hi Tommy!

Coming from someone who fought scrupulosity myself, I’m convinced that rather than contributing to my scruples, the mortal/venial sin distinction actually helped me in conquering them, and kept me from completely giving up on living a virtuous life. Because I was already consumed with worry about sin, if I was taught that every single sin, no matter how small, would have eternally separated me from God, I would have been destroyed.

The thing about scrupulosity is it gives a person a distorted view of God. God is seen as a task master who is just looking to punish us rather than a loving Father looking to heal us. Making all sins equal would only increase the amount of worry and stress a scrupulous person suffers, and could even push them away from God. I’ve read too many stories about atheists who grew up in Christian families that believed all sins to be the same, and all of them say they constantly felt like they were going to be damned to hell no matter what they did. Which is why they ended up rejecting the faith.

That’s where the distinction between mortal and venial sin would have prevented so much pain and heartache. Because there obviously is a difference between not taking out the garbage when your parents ask and murdering someone. We need that distinction, otherwise people will end up being forced into despair.

Anyways, just wanted to share my perspective on that. Hope that made a little sense.

Hi Robyn,
Yes, that makes a lot of sense, actually.

Follow up:
As someone who has fought scrupulosity, how were you able to overcome it, if I may ask?

My guess is that overcoming scrupulosity involves taking into consideration all God has done for us, including His infinite mercy and love for us on the cross, His forgiveness of our sins, and less and less on the actual “rules and regulations” aspect of sin, although we should never become casual in our sinning to the point where it ever becomes comfortable. In other words, putting things in proper perspective (God hates sin but loves the sinner and has made allowances for that in Christ the redeemer), but that’s just my take.

 

[Robyn_p]

Hi Robyn,
Yes, that makes a lot of sense, actually.

Follow up:
As someone who has fought scrupulosity, how were you able to overcome it, if I may ask?

My guess is that overcoming scrupulosity involves taking into consideration all God has done for us, including His infinite mercy and love for us on the cross, His forgiveness of our sins, and less and less on the actual “rules and regulations” aspect of sin, although we should never become casual in our sinning to the point where it ever becomes comfortable. In other words, putting things in proper perspective (God hates sin but loves the sinner and has made allowances for that in Christ the redeemer), but that’s just my take.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head. God’s love was what changed things for me. I had heard my whole life ‘‘God loves you’’ but it took so long for the full force of that to hit me. I still remember the exact moment I really realized it though. I was sitting in front of the Eucharist one night in church, by myself. Suddenly I realized that the same Jesus who hung on the cross and died and rose from the dead was sitting right there two feet in front of me! Again, I had always believed it, but now it was real. I actually started to cry. And right then I was hit by this overwhelming feeling that I was loved, no matter what. I can’t really explain it, but it changed me. I’ve never felt like that before or since. I saw how much God loved us. The fact that the God of the entire universe would make himself so vulnerable and weak for me completely changed how I saw him. I realized how awesome and great and merciful God is.

After that I started diving deeper into my faith. That also helped a lot to cure my scruples. What the Church teaches about sin and grace and salvation is actually incredibly freeing. The Catechism helped me, and also a few Catholic authors really helped put things in perspective for me. I saw that everything in the moral life, all the so called rules, ultimately came back to love. You can’t accidentally sin, because sin at its most fundamental level is a refusal to love God, and not about breaking a rule. That really changed things once I discovered that. I still take sin seriously, but now I’m not constantly worried about accidentally messing up.

Anyways, in the end, it was completely God’s doing. I would have never found a way out without him.

 

[pablope]

Thanks to all recent posters, including Eddie Too, Bob Crowley, zz912 (especially for those scriptural references), KathleenGee (you’ve answered a lot of my threads over the past several months to the point I am beginning to think you are part human and part guardian angel like Clarence in ‘It’s a Wonderful Life’. :angel1: ).

Finally, thank you very much, Manualman. That was an excellent and very understandable synopsis of the evangelical protestant position on sins and the Catholic one. I am now convinced there is a valid case for classifying sins into mortal and venial sins and it makes logical sense. I’m slowly but surely running out of reasons why I shouldn’t become a Catholic some day.

.

Hi, Tommy…as a follow up to Manualman’s post…you may want to read and learn more about the states of way in our life journey…and see where are at at this stage in your life, (as an exercise in self examination/reflection):

newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

State or Way (Purgative, Illuminative, Unitive)

The word state is used in various senses by theologians and spiritual writers. It may be taken to signify a profession or calling in life, as where St. Paul says, in 1 Corinthians 7:20: “Let every man abide in the same calling in which he was called”. We have, in this sense, states of perfection, classified in the Church as the clerical state, the religious state, and the secular state; and among religious states, again, we have those of the contemplative, the active, and the mixed orders.

The word is also used in the classification of the degrees or stages of Christian perfection, or the advancement of souls in the supernatural life of grace during their sojourn in the world. This has reference to the practice of all the virtues, both theological and moral, and to all their acts both external and internal. It includes two elements, namely our own efforts and the grace of God assisting us. This grace is never wanting for those acts which are positively commanded or inspired by God, and the work of perfection will proceed according to the energy and fidelity with which souls correspond with its aids.