Why are there so many religions?

[Moonstruck888]

You don’t think Tonyrey is on my side here? He’s also waiting for you to answer my questions. That’s what he said in a private message to me. No joke. Go ahead and ask him.

I don’t really care who’s side he’s on. I should advise both you and he not to hold your breath.

Oooooh. So there IS objective truth. I was confused because you said truth was relative. So, now I’m really confused. Is truth relative or is it not?

Maybe aye, maybe no, maybe both?

Sorry, when you said: “Good and evil are relative concepts to culture, time and place, and are totally malleable to suit whatever pragmatic concerns one has at any given time” that led me to believe you were a pragmatist. My bad.

It was a pretty idiotic assumption, so yes, your bad.

And your personality is simply irresistible, charming, and incredibly easy to engage with. You leave a sweet taste in my mouth and a warm feeling of friendliness. Your delivery is witty, clear, and a true inspiration to read.

Then do us both a favour and don’t read it.

I’m enjoying this too much. Sorry.

You’re enjoying inter-locution with a man who regards you as a pseudo intellectual bampot with Asperger’s Syndrome and blatantly tells you so?

You’re a strange man…

Everyone perceives reality differently, does that mean reality is relative to the observer? Does that mean science and math is relative to the observer? Does that mean there is no objective truth? I thought you said there WAS objective truth. Could you clear this up for me. I’m not sure what you’re saying.

Since the definition of truth you gave was frankly lazy as ****, I really don’t see how we can have any further discourse on this until you give a reasonable definition of what you mean when you talk of truth, rather than a snippy little ten word soundbite that is utterly devoid of any information or meaning.

Frankly, I don’t consider it a salient question or an important one. Science works. That’s all that matters to me. I don’t care about these silly false dichotomies that philosophers invent that have absolutely zero bearing on how one lives life.

Reality is all that exists outside one’s mind. Good question.

Not nearly good enough. Details please Mr Logic. What constitutes reality? What is it composed of? What parts are necessary to build it? How does it work? How old is it? How big is it?

Now, can you answer some of my questions?

Given the type of half baked non questions that you’re asking me, that is, to put it mildly, improbable.

For example, how can truth be objective and yet relative at the same time? You seemed to have said that such a thing is possible. But doesn’t the objectivity of truth cancel out the belief that truth is simply relative to each person? Explain.

That would depend on how you define truth. Since you and I cannot agree on a definition, I fail to see how I can explain in any manner you’ll accept.

What is truth? Honesty? People can be convinced something is true and be wrong. People can have truth staring them in the face and not see it.

I don’t state personal opinions as fact and I don’t do one glove size fits all proclamations of truth, whatever that might mean, for the whole of humanity. If you can, then why are you wasting time with the likes of me? Why aren’t you taking your rightful place as the new Messiah?

 

[Areopagite]

I don’t really care who’s side he’s on. I should advise both you and he not to hold your breath.

Thanks for the head’s up.

Maybe aye, maybe no, maybe both?

Yeah? You think so? I would say that if truth is objective, then it’s not relative. Right? You think that makes sense? Or are you still on the fence on that one?

It was a pretty idiotic assumption, so yes, your bad.

I must be a retard or something.

Then do us both a favour and don’t read it.

I’ll try. But I have a weak determination not to read it.

You’re enjoying inter-locution with a man who regards you as a pseudo intellectual bampot with Asperger’s Syndrome and blatantly tells you so?

THAT … is poetry, man.

You’re a strange man…

And easily amused.

Since the definition of truth you gave was frankly lazy as ****, I really don’t see how we can have any further discourse on this until you give a reasonable definition of what you mean when you talk of truth, rather than a snippy little ten word soundbite that is utterly devoid of any information or meaning.

Well, at least I gave you some kind of definition. I can’t say that you’ve done too much of that, eh?

Frankly, I don’t consider it a salient question or an important one. Science works. That’s all that matters to me.

So … science works … works how? In what way does science work that makes you care about it? What do you ultimately care about and how does science help accomplish that?

Are these questions too prodding? I can tone down the harsh language.

I don’t care about these silly false dichotomies that philosophers invent that have absolutely zero bearing on how one lives life.

Philosophies, good and bad ones, shape society. Ever heard of the French Revolution? Exactly. Ideas have consequences. Might as well make sure you have good ones.

Not nearly good enough. Details please Mr Logic. What constitutes reality? What is it composed of? What parts are necessary to build it? How does it work? How old is it? How big is it?

Do you think all these details are important in the definition of “reality”? For example, let’s say we somehow figured reality was 100 trillion years old and included that in its definition. However, one second later it would be older than that, and reality wouldn’t fit that definition anymore. I think the same can be said on these other details … but you are free to disagree. I am eager for your thoughts on that. First we must figure out the definition of reality before we go into those other details. No?

Given the type of half baked non questions that you’re asking me, that is, to put it mildly, improbable.

No, man. They’re fully baked. And they’re delicious.

That would depend on how you define truth. Since you and I cannot agree on a definition, I fail to see how I can explain in any manner you’ll accept.

So … you don’t think truth is the “correct correspondence of reality to the mind”? What exactly do you see wrong with this definition besides it being “half-baked.” Can you critique it more specifically?

What is truth? Honesty? People can be convinced something is true and be wrong. People can have truth staring them in the face and not see it.

Good question, Pontius Pilate. Honestly.

Now, when you say, “People can have truth staring them in the face and not see it” … are you implying that truth does exist but people sometimes don’t see it even when it’s obvious? I’m still trying to divine whether you think truth exists. Isn’t it reasonable that even though many people fail to see the truth, it doesn’t automatically mean there is no truth? Or maybe not. Your thoughts.

I don’t state personal opinions as fact and I don’t do one glove size fits all proclamations of truth, whatever that might mean, for the whole of humanity. If you can, then why are you wasting time with the likes of me?

But don’t you think science is the way to go for everyone? In what way do you care about science? Do you care for it just for yourself or for others as well? Isn’t there some kind of universality that science has or should have?

Why aren’t you taking your rightful place as the new Messiah?

Um … not too sure how to respond to that one. I suppose I’m not trying to become a new Messiah because I don’t want to go to hell. You see, pretending your a divine person when you’re not is called lying … really lying. So, yeah, that’s why.

What I’m wondering is why you’re wasting your time here if you hate philosophy? That’s the million dollar question, isn’t it? Could you at least answer that.

 

[colmcille1]

Hi all True believers,
There are many religions but there is one True Faith. Just as, say…
there are many questions caledonicus clownus can’t answer here even though it’s been told the one True answer!
Y’see, folks, every so often life throws up a specimen of human so dour, so contrary, so belligerent, so humourless, so downright nasty we are left wondering can science be such a cruel mistress as to fortuitously assemble such a malignant conglomeration of atoms? But soon the thought passes and we are comforted (and not a little relieved!) by the thought that even in the smoky recesses of Auld Reeky or in the unforgiving greyness of the Gorbals, there is light. Weak and arbitrary light but light nonetheless.
And as long as there is light, the light of religions that will eventually lead to the resplendant
True light, there is hope.
So please, True believers, I pray you, steel yourselves and indulge caledonicus clownus in it’s rancourous parlour game because it’s the only way it knows how to find the light.
God Bless,
Colmcille1.

 

[Moonstruck888]

What I’m wondering is why you’re wasting your time here if you hate philosophy? That’s the million dollar question, isn’t it? Could you at least answer that.

Good question my friend… Good question…

I think I should probably stick to what I know and leave truth to the philosophers.

 

[Tuno]

Hi
There are many religions but there is one True Faith.

“The very thing which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients also, nor was it wanting from the inception of the human race until the coming of Christ in the flesh, at which point the true religion, which was already in existence, began to be called Christian.”

 ~~ST. AUGUSTINE, Retractiones

Explains a few things about the pre-Christian origins of the Gospels, eh?

 

[colmcille1]

“The very thing which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients also, nor was it wanting from the inception of the human race until the coming of Christ in the flesh, at which point the true religion, which was already in existence, began to be called Christian.”

 ~~ST. AUGUSTINE, Retractiones

Explains a few things about the pre-Christian origins of the Gospels, eh?

Ta tu amadan mor!

 

[fhansen]

“The very thing which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients also, nor was it wanting from the inception of the human race until the coming of Christ in the flesh, at which point the true religion, which was already in existence, began to be called Christian.”

 ~~ST. AUGUSTINE, Retractiones

Explains a few things about the pre-Christian origins of the Gospels, eh?

Great quote! I’d be interested to know where in Retractions it can be found. Thanks.

 

[Tuno]

Hi Colmecille,

The Irish nuns taught us well. We even learned the Irish Anthem in Gaelic, God bless them. I won’t return the compliment; I have higher regard for you than that, muirnin.

@Fhansen; Sorry, it was a stand-alone. I found it fascinating and used it as a provocation to thought, but got a wonderfully useful epithet instead. And it is Retractiones. You likely would not like where I found it, Colmecille even much less.

 

[colmcille1]

Hi Colmecille,

The Irish nuns taught us well. We even learned the Irish Anthem in Gaelic, God bless them. I won’t return the compliment; I have higher regard for you than that, muirnin.

@Fhansen; Sorry, it was a stand-alone. I found it fascinating and used it as a provocation to thought, but got a wonderfully useful epithet instead. And it is Retractiones. You likely would not like where I found it, Colmecille even much less.

Fear sa teach, madra sa bhothair, an dtuigeann tu?

 

[Tuno]

That good I’m not; sorry, I never learned the language, and that’s as close as they got to swear words, which are often what one first learns of a foreign language. I do believe I can still mouth the first few words of the anthem. So if you are commenting again on my intelligence, this time it’s lost on me. But maybe if you speak Magyar, we could go there. For some reason my Dad thought we were a landlocked group of Irish. Go figure. Or Erin Go Bragh.

 

[inocente]

Hi all True believers,
There are many religions but there is one True Faith. Just as, say…
there are many questions caledonicus clownus can’t answer here even though it’s been told the one True answer!
Y’see, folks, every so often life throws up a specimen of human so dour, so contrary, so belligerent, so humourless, so downright nasty we are left wondering can science be such a cruel mistress as to fortuitously assemble such a malignant conglomeration of atoms? But soon the thought passes and we are comforted (and not a little relieved!) by the thought that even in the smoky recesses of Auld Reeky or in the unforgiving greyness of the Gorbals, there is light. Weak and arbitrary light but light nonetheless.
And as long as there is light, the light of religions that will eventually lead to the resplendant
True light, there is hope.
So please, True believers, I pray you, steel yourselves and indulge caledonicus clownus in it’s rancourous parlour game because it’s the only way it knows how to find the light.

Ta tu amadan mor!

Fear sa teach, madra sa bhothair, an dtuigeann tu?

Please translate these posts and explain their relevance to those of us that don’t speak Albanian and like to stay roughly on topic.

 

[colmcille1]

Please translate these posts and explain their relevance to those of us that don’t speak Albanian and like to stay roughly on topic.

Nope! No can do, inocente. These posts are indefatiguably on topic and are directed to specific posters. Alas, it requires a bit of effort to grasp them. But hey, we are not here to spoonfeed one another. (At least I’m not!) The mind’s a great thing when exercised regularly.
Btw, aren’t you being unkind to those of Albanian lineage? Or is this your chosen “racist” joke butt?
God Bless,
Colmcille1.

 

[inocente]

The mind’s a great thing when exercised regularly.
Btw, aren’t you being unkind to those of Albanian lineage? Or is this your chosen “racist” joke butt?

No matter.

There are many religions because there are many cultures and ways to truth. There are no historical instances of fundamentalism winning out in the long run. None of us should expect to be able to see the entire truth when we are not perfect.

 

[Tuno]

Innocente, those statements are Gaelic in English script and are aimed at me because St Columba, the “dove of the Church,” doesn’t like my reference to history. Apparently he hasn’t read the part of early Church history which would show that, pertinent to the thread title, there actually would be more religions around the Mediterranean if around the second and third century, and other times, much of the Church had not conducted jihad-like activities. These included but were not limited to: plagiarism, deliberate falsification, character assassination, library burnings, temple desecrations, and pogroms. These are the ways our Faith got such a foothold on Western “civilization.”* The Church as well, like the assimilative propensity of the English language, adopted many pagan customs to mollify its converts. Colmcille will tell you about the Sheela-na-gig on many churches in his own country. Maybe. You probably know of others yourself.

And please, this is not to be construed as disrespect for our religion any more than than I would point out any family or any group has skeletons in their closet. My own country is reluctant to describe the atrocities attendant to its founding and growth, and even today tries, often successfully, to put sheets over horrors it perpetrates. This includes attempted genocide by germ warfare against the Amerinds, deadly military force against striking factory workers, the extinction or near-extinction of American species, and much that is going on today. It is just human nature to hide such things. We just don’t like to admit or own our skeletons!.

None of my classes in Catholic grammar or High school even went near these and other related material. Apparently the Church, like my own country, still follows the dictum of Eusebius. As we know, he was one of the most eminent historians of the Church. Here is his policy: “We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity.”– Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2. In practice, as far as the Church’s own record, that means that the ultra-draconian approach of much of the early Church is relegated to a position behind the curtain as in OZ, along with many other inconvenient facts. Maybe this is why the Vatican library is so inaccessible?

As wonderful as we might claim the Church to be, it did its part to violently stamp out other faiths by other means than missionaryism, which activity did its own brand of harm. And that is why there are fewer religions than might otherwise be, complementary to why there are yet so many.

Does this impinge on what is good? NO. It simply demonstrates once again that good and religion exist on two different axes, only seemingly coinciding at times. And that we habitually assimilate what supports us in our feeling of goodness and right. If we are raised in a faith, any faith, that becomes our default position until we gain a wider perspective, if if we ever do. Most of us don’t go there because by dint of comfort, we don’t feel a need. “The mind’s a great thing when exercised regularly.” ~Colmcille

*Speaking of other religions, when Gahndi was touring London, after he was invited there to sway him from destroying the Empire by doing nothing, he was asked by a reporter what he thought of Western civilization. He said “I think it would be a very good idea!”

 

[fhansen]

Innocente, those statements are Gaelic in English script and are aimed at me because St Columba, the “dove of the Church,” Doesn’t like my reference to history. Apparently he hasn’t read the part of early Church history which would show that, pertinent to the thread title, there actually would be more religions around the Mediterranean if around the second and third century, and other times, much of the Church had not conducted jihad-like activities, including everything from plagiarism, deliberate falsification, character assassination, library burnings, temple desecrations, and pogroms. These are the ways our faith got such a foothold on Western “civilization.”* The Church as well, like the assimilative propensity of the English language, adopted many pagan customs to mollify its converts. Colmcille will tell you about the Sheela-na-gig on many churches in his own country. Maybe.

I’m far from a historian but I’ve never read anywhere that the early church was little more than a ragtag band of persecuted outcasts during the period you mentioned-2nd and 3rd centuries.

 

[Tuno]

With all due respect, fhansen, while that is to a degree true, you will find much if you just dig a bit below the surface.

 

[fhansen]

With all due respect, fhansen, while that is to a degree true, you will find much if you just dig a bit below the surface.

Well, that’s fine-I’d have to know where to do the digging, tho, if you could direct me.

 

[phoenixrrt62]

---

What is your opinion?***

Well, I think it’s man’s way to understand the world around him and the manner in which it works, is all.
What we don’t understand or grasp with the human mind, which obviously has its limitations, we attribute to a all powerful, other worldly being. Just human nature, I suppose.

I can’t let go of the idea that there just might BE another intelligent force that we as humans do not fully understand…so…

 

[Tuno]

@ fhansen: History books? The Vatican Library? On line?

I hesitate to give a bibliography for two reasons: If I don’t find it myself, I tend not to own it. And giving a bibliography tends to draw fire on the bibliography because some of it is secular.

But first, I would assimilate such things as Mortimer J. Adler’s superb work How to Read a Book. I would accompany that with something directly pertinent to comparative religions which contains annotated source material, such as Ceriminara’s Handbook for Religious Sanity. While she may be criticized for her personal views by some Catholics, her volume is yet used in even Catholic comparative religion classes, as I understand. I say this because it is apparent to me that there is a paucity of critical thinking ability on these pages, and because of the subject matter, a lot of emotionalizing. Please don’t forget that our nation has in the last twenty-odd years slipped in scholarship from first to 29th in the industrialized world. So I think it behooves us to learn some skills and some facts.

You might start with the Catholic Encyclopedia. I found it useful in setting me straight about some views I prejudicially held against the Church. Discovery sometimes leads to reactivity, and in a disaster, the first human response is denial. Hi there!

But let’s look at a time line from the 4th century (Sorry, I stand corrected to some extent about the 2nd & 3rd; though they were the groundwork era.) and you can go from there.

314 Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks non-Christians. The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324 The emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of the god Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all non-Christian peoples from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic temples.

325 Nicene Council. Pronouncement: ‘Christ is Divine’ Now it is official.

326 Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the temple of the god Asclepius in Aigeai Cilicia and many temples of the goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenicia, Baalbek, etc.

330 Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the pagan temples of Greece to decorate Constantinople, the new capital of his Empire.

335 Constantine sacks many pagan temples in Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers.” Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus.

341 Constantius II (Flavius Julius Constantius) persecutes “all the soothsayers and the Hellenists.” Many gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

346 New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as a “magician”.

353 An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifice and “idols”.

354 A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Execution of pagan priests begins. A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan temples and the execution of all “idolaters”. First burning of libraries in various cities of the empire. The first lime factories are organised next to the closed pagan temples. A major part of the holy architecture of the pagans is turned into lime.

357 Constantius outlaws all methods of divination.

359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organise the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire.

361 to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults is declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan emperor Julian (Flavius Claudius Julianus).

363 Assassination of Julian (26th June).

364 Emperor Jovian orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.

An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all those that worship their ancestral gods or practice divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi curiositas”).

And on it goes. That ought to give you a good start.

‘There is nothing so easy as by sheer volubility to deceive a common crowd or an uneducated congregation.’ ~ St. Jerome (Epistle. lii, 8; p. 93.)

 

[fhansen]

@ fhansen: History books? The Vatican Library? On line?

I hesitate to give a bibliography for two reasons: If I don’t find it myself, I tend not to own it. And giving a bibliography tends to draw fire on the bibliography because some of it is secular.

But first, I would assimilate such things as Mortimer J. Adler’s superb work How to Read a Book. I would accompany that with something directly pertinent to comparative religions which contains annotated source material, such as Ceriminara’s Handbook for Religious Sanity. While she may be criticized for her personal views by some Catholics, her volume is yet used in even Catholic comparative religion classes, as I understand. I say this because it is apparent to me that there is a paucity of critical thinking ability on these pages, and because of the subject matter, a lot of emotionalizing. Please don’t forget that our nation has in the last twenty-odd years slipped in scholarship from first to 29th in the industrialized world. So I think it behooves us to learn some skills and some facts.

You might start with the Catholic Encyclopedia. I found it useful in setting me straight about some views I prejudicially held against the Church. Discovery sometimes leads to reactivity, and in a disaster, the first human response is denial. Hi there!

But let’s look at a time line from the 4th century (Sorry, I stand corrected to some extent about the 2nd & 3rd; though they were the groundwork era.) and you can go from there.

314 Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks non-Christians. The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324 The emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of the god Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all non-Christian peoples from Mount Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic temples.

325 Nicene Council. Pronouncement: ‘Christ is Divine’ Now it is official.

326 Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the temple of the god Asclepius in Aigeai Cilicia and many temples of the goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenicia, Baalbek, etc.

330 Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the pagan temples of Greece to decorate Constantinople, the new capital of his Empire.

335 Constantine sacks many pagan temples in Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers.” Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus.

341 Constantius II (Flavius Julius Constantius) persecutes “all the soothsayers and the Hellenists.” Many gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

346 New large scale persecutions against non-Christian peoples in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as a “magician”.

353 An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifice and “idols”.

354 A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Execution of pagan priests begins. A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan temples and the execution of all “idolaters”. First burning of libraries in various cities of the empire. The first lime factories are organised next to the closed pagan temples. A major part of the holy architecture of the pagans is turned into lime.

357 Constantius outlaws all methods of divination.

359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organise the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested non-Christians from all around the empire.

361 to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults is declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan emperor Julian (Flavius Claudius Julianus).

363 Assassination of Julian (26th June).

364 Emperor Jovian orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.

An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all those that worship their ancestral gods or practice divination (“sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi curiositas”).

And on it goes. That ought to give you a good start.

‘There is nothing so easy as by sheer volubility to deceive a common crowd or an uneducated congregation.’ ~ St. Jerome (Epistle. lii, 8; p. 93.)

I already knew most of that. But the “groundwork” you say was laid earlier doesn’t square. The truth is that, once empowered in the temporal realm, Church members/leaders were often corrupted, as humans are to this day. However, as with the Law in OT times, the treasure God gave to the Church -her doctrines-have remained intact through it all, always waiting to be uncovered again even if neglected by people who pay God lip service but who’s"hearts are far from Him".