Why are there sociopaths?

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Dear Lasting Faith,

The meaning behind something being the result of Original Sin is in the beginning God created a “perfect” place. There was no disease or illness.

Dear RoseMary,

Thank you, again, I would be lost without you. This is not my week, all I seem to do is writing confusing comments about issues I really don’t know much about. All it really was that it did hurt me when someone tell me that the Original Sin is the cause to my condition. It might be, I don’t know, but it did offend me, it was a thing I really did not expected. I don’t even know why it did offend me. Maybe because I took it pretty personal, which was stupid, that is all I can say. I wish some of us where nicer and not so hard. It is all about how you say something, and if you want to, it can either break you to bits and pieces or make you see the truth in a nice way, like you write, nice and kind. God bless you for being around.
 
Dear RoseMary,

Thank you, again, I would be lost without you. This is not my week, all I seem to do is writing confusing comments about issues I really don’t know much about. All it really was that it did hurt me when someone tell me that the Original Sin is the cause to my condition. It might be, I don’t know, but it did offend me, it was a thing I really did not expected. I don’t even know why it did offend me. Maybe because I took it pretty personal, which was stupid, that is all I can say. I wish some of us where nicer and not so hard. It is all about how you say something, and if you want to, it can either break you to bits and pieces or make you see the truth in a nice way, like you write, nice and kind. God bless you for being around.
 
We are in Adam in the sense that we all derive our nature from Adam and not some alternative source. Therefore if his nature is messed up, we all get it. Like Hiroshima Nagasaki, a damaged nature is handed on, not an wholesome nature.

Yes, God sets the rules. He is God after all. The creator. From our point of view, it makes little sense to judge how good we think God is for making creatures with the ability to separate themselves in different degrees from God, and therefore experience suffering. What we know is that where sin abounded, grace abounded all the more. So as much as the sociopath and every other human is born with a nature he did not directly cause, he is also given grace that he did not cause or merit, grace that is more powerful than the weaknesses of his nature.

You may think that a better plan would be to make it incapable for a creature to separate itself in the first place, in which case there would be no free creatures, or to make creatures that were truly separate from each other and not a family like the human race…etc etc. God thinks both the familial nature of humanity and a true sense of free will which is the ability to reject a relationship with God, are important, and he supplies grace to each person according to his weakness, circumstances and the level of beatitude to which he has called them each. In this way, he makes loving him a true choice of each soul and not simply a robotic instinct of nature. In this way, he supplies grace that all souls receive as pure gift whatever their personal worthiness, thanks to the familial nature of humans and his incarnation into this family and sacrifice.

At the end of the day, you are judging God!s acts per a standard you have come with or chosen. Which is like a cartoon judging the cartoonist for flaws it thinks it can pick out in the story, even while it cannot see the whole picture or the end of the story. God has “made good” for anything that you think he is accountable for, or anything that humans do not directly choose. He has also protected humans choice. Ultimately anyone in hell will be there by his own choice absolutely.
It seems like a lot of what I’m hearing boils down to “God wants humans to have the free will to choose whether or not to separate themselves from him”. So I’m wondering: Do humans have free will in heaven or are they automatons at that point?
Gods greatness can be seen in many ways, and one is his refusal to allow his creation to be given up to destruction and complete ruin out of the work of creatures like satan and the demons and the men they have cheated into joining their rebellion. Instead, he loves this world so much and still goes ahead and creates it, finding a way to redeem it without taking away the free will of the creatures. This “way” is to become one of them and make a personal sacrifice that merits grace through love. This is a god willing to go very far to save his creation, in my opinion. A God that has proven his love better than any lover Hollywood can come up with. You may not like this plan, I love it. But bottom line, you and I don’t know from our limited perspectives what is “the better plan”.
This part scares me a bit. How can someone love a plan that ends with eternal torture and pain for some people. (I’m presuming, of course that you believe in a literal Hell here) I don’t think I could ever be in heaven and be happy knowing that others will suffer forever. Here on earth I can only do a little bit to help ease others suffering. In heaven I can do nothing. Having an eternity to contemplate that scenario would truly be Hell for me. And if I could accept the idea of eternal torment as a just punishment for finite infractions, then I wouldn’t be myself in heaven, I would be someone else.
 
It seems like a lot of what I’m hearing boils down to “God wants humans to have the free will to choose whether or not to separate themselves from him”. So I’m wondering: Do humans have free will in heaven or are they automatons at that point?

This part scares me a bit. How can someone love a plan that ends with eternal torture and pain for some people. (I’m presuming, of course that you believe in a literal Hell here) I don’t think I could ever be in heaven and be happy knowing that others will suffer forever. Here on earth I can only do a little bit to help ease others suffering. In heaven I can do nothing. Having an eternity to contemplate that scenario would truly be Hell for me. And if I could accept the idea of eternal torment as a just punishment for finite infractions, then I wouldn’t be myself in heaven, I would be someone else.
Without evil how would we know good? Not sure where that comes from but I think it has merit. We don’t know the way God works. Our vision of Hell comes mostly from Dante’s Inferno who put the pope, and a multitude of other characters from Florentine politics, in the hell that he depicts in Inferno. It might be fun for some to speculate about hell but we know very little about it so I wouldn’t worry too much about it. I believe that if you honestly try to be the best Christian you can be the rest will take care of itself.
 
Without evil how would we know good? Not sure where that comes from but I think it has merit.
Why does it have merit? Do you need someone to feel pain in order to know that not feeling pain is good? I’ve never had my foot cut off in a thresher, but I’m content with my base level feeling of having two feet. Do you need to have your foot cut off to appreciate the experience of feet?
We don’t know the way God works. Our vision of Hell comes mostly from Dante’s Inferno who put the pope, and a multitude of other characters from Florentine politics, in the hell that he depicts in Inferno. It might be fun for some to speculate about hell but we know very little about it so I wouldn’t worry too much about it. I believe that if you honestly try to be the best Christian you can be the rest will take care of itself.
Is Hell not eternal punishment? Is it a good place to be? Is it like Pennsylvania? From what I’ve always heard, Hell is not somewhere you want to go. How can you shut your eyes to the eternal suffering of others and say that you “wouldn’t worry too much about it” and “try to be the best Christian you can be the rest will take care of itself.”

It’s ironic that this thread started out about sociopathy. Sociopaths being those who only superficially care about others’ well being.
 
Dear RoseMary,

Thank you, again, I would be lost without you. This is not my week, all I seem to do is writing confusing comments about issues I really don’t know much about. All it really was that it did hurt me when someone tell me that the Original Sin is the cause to my condition. It might be, I don’t know, but it did offend me, it was a thing I really did not expected. I don’t even know why it did offend me. Maybe because I took it pretty personal, which was stupid, that is all I can say. I wish some of us where nicer and not so hard. It is all about how you say something, and if you want to, it can either break you to bits and pieces or make you see the truth in a nice way, like you write, nice and kind. God bless you for being around.
You are welcome, Lasting Faith, and thank you for your kind words. Do not be upset if you write something that may appear confusing or that it is a subject you are growing in knowledge about. Stepping out in discussions on topics is how we all learn more.

I think I understand the pain you felt when you thought someone was saying something hurtful about a suffering you experience with panic disorder and depression.

I think I have an idea of why you felt hurt with the idea about Original Sin. It may have been an idea you had not heard before in reference that all of the suffering that entered man’s life came from the first turning from God - the beginning of sin - the loss of a Perfect Paradise.

While “Original Sin” is a statement of why pain and illness entered the life of all of us - what you may have “heard” was “Lasting Faith - you suffer because of Adam and Eve - they are to “blame” for your pain.”

You may have a great respect for Adam and Eve - our “first parents”. You may not want to think that your suffering came from these people you honor. If that is part of why the statement on Original Sin caused you pain - remember also - that Adam and Eve at once were sorry for breaking the one rule God had given them.

It is not “stupid” that you took the issue very personal. It is how you felt when you read the post. You are not stupid for having your true feelings. You were hurt. Hopefully, some of that hurt will be gone now - understanding that it was not meant to be personal - but to explain why everyone of us has pain and illness.

On this forum - all we have to communicate is our written words. How we read and understand is based on the individual who wrote the message and the individual who reads it. Sometimes, we can misunderstand each other when meeting in person and having a face to face conversation. When the subject is something very delicate to our personal life, it can be even harder for each of us to read.

I think you personally are a very brave man. You have become part of this forum in a language different than your native language. You have shared with all of us some very personal things about you and your family. That takes a lot of strength to let others see some of your pains and difficulties - yet you have opened yourself to share those with us. Being able to do all of that while suffering from panic disorder and depression - shows strength.
… I suffer from panic-disorder and depression.
… I am created by God …why I am sick is something only God know, maybe because I am born out of wedlock and my mother who I hardly know never have, and most likely never will, tell who my father is. Do you really think God is punishing me for that?
I think this information that you shared with all of us is of great reason why you felt personal pain from the message about Original Sin being the “root” of all of our sufferings.

You and each of us is beautifully made by the Hand of God. The reasons you suffer from panic disorder and depression is ultimately only know by God. However, the medical world has been able to notice some patterns that “cause” various illnesses.

Sometimes they notice behavior health issues stem from a physical means - these areas are sometimes helped with medication.

Sometimes they notice patterns in one’s life that causes some of the pain - sometimes a change in how we think about those events - brings us more peace.

I would guess that you have some pains because your dear mother never took the time to really be a mother to you. That fact that she has never told you who is your dear father is very painful. Everyone of us has an ingrain desire to be known and loved by our own mother and father.

I am sorry you have this pain to carry - maybe you feel a very big rejection - that is a normal human feeling. I pray you are released from this pain.

I think I remember you mentioning in an older post that you were raised by your grandmother.

God does not “punish” us for our parents’ behavior, but our parents’ behavior can have a very big impact on our lives. Some of your suffering from panic-disorder or depression, may have a link to the sorrows you have in that your mother did not take time to be a mother to you and didn’t allow you to know who your father is.
 
Code:
If I would track my history and what  have happen to me I most likely  would be able to say that "there" (is  the reason to my state) but that  is too painful for me to do..
One thing I know for certain though is that to understand the future you need to understand the past,
Dear Lasting Faith,
Have you had the chance to sit with a dear friend, a priest, or a professional counselor to walk with you through your history? Yes, it will be painful. However, with the surfacing of that pain - you can look at yourself in a new light and release that pain in your history. The thoughts we hold and the emotions we carry - can affect us deeply for a long time. Releasing those pains - pains about your history - pains about the lacking of your biological parents in your life - can bring much healing.

May God help you, dear Lasting Faith, in the pains you have in regards to the missing parts of your life from your mother and father. May God continue to bless you towards healing with the sufferings you carry from panic disorder and depression.

Know that you are really a strong man - a strong father and grandfather - a strong child of God.
 
Why does it have merit? Do you need someone to feel pain in order to know that not feeling pain is good? I’ve never had my foot cut off in a thresher, but I’m content with my base level feeling of having two feet. Do you need to have your foot cut off to appreciate the experience of feet?

Is Hell not eternal punishment? Is it a good place to be? Is it like Pennsylvania? From what I’ve always heard, Hell is not somewhere you want to go. How can you shut your eyes to the eternal suffering of others and say that you “wouldn’t worry too much about it” and “try to be the best Christian you can be the rest will take care of itself.”

It’s ironic that this thread started out about sociopathy. Sociopaths being those who only superficially care about others’ well being.
I was trying to reach out to you but obviously did a poor job of doing it. I honestly thought that there was nothing in my post that would upset you and that it might be helpful. Looking at your reply I appear to made the mistake of not paying sufficient attention to your empathy with souls who might be suffering. To me being a good Christian means works of mercy, I apologize that my post did not live up to that.
 
The sociopath did nothing to warrant his condition. He was born with it. Why is he not granted free will.
He is granted free will. Everyone is. If a person recognized sociopathic tendencies in themselves they must fight hard against them. We all have some problem with that kind of behavior or attitude in our lives at some point. Most of us manage to work out these issues in positive ways.

Something to think about: People who suffer from Fetal Alcohol Syndrome have been shown to have no concept of right and wrong. (This is from my studies many years ago and memory.) You can repeatedly explain that breaking the neighbors car window is wrong and it is like the message goes “in one ear and out the other.” They simply lack the ability to appreciate the meaning of right and wrong at a basic level. They are more likely to be followers than leaders as well.

Thus the environment they live in is crucial. A well structured, healthy environment is ideal, but if they are exposed to wrong doing such as stealing and vandalism, and there is a leader in a group that is coaxing this behavior in others, the FAS affected person is bound to follow and do wrong. Yet they truly don’t comprehend what they may have done.

Now this is certainly a very oversimplified example, as there are various degrees of brain damage amongst those with FAS, various environmental factors etc. In a sense however, such a person may be more susseptable to sociopathic behavior than others. It does not mean he/she does not have free will, but this person could be seen as less capable of using their free will appropriately. God alone knows how culpable any of are.
 
I was trying to reach out to you but obviously did a poor job of doing it. I honestly thought that there was nothing in my post that would upset you and that it might be helpful. Looking at your reply I appear to made the mistake of not paying sufficient attention to your empathy with souls who might be suffering. To me being a good Christian means works of mercy, I apologize that my post did not live up to that.
I apologize. I didn’t mean for my response to come off as hurt or angry. In this discussion I’m accepting, for the sake of argument, that Hell is real and responding with the outrage I would feel about that condition. I personally am not worried about people going to Hell because I don’t see any reason to believe there is such a place. I do, however, want to understand how people who do believe in Hell think about the suffering that those who are condemned there will endure.

I didn’t mean to imply that you personally were a sociopath. From your post you sound like a person who wants to help others (I believe this is what you mean by “works of mercy”) and I think that is awesome. But let’s say that you were in heaven and knew of people who were suffering and beyond the reach of mercy forever. How would you feel about that? That is the question that I was trying (perhaps too harshly) to get at.
 
I apologize. I didn’t mean for my response to come off as hurt or angry. In this discussion I’m accepting, for the sake of argument, that Hell is real and responding with the outrage I would feel about that condition. I personally am not worried about people going to Hell because I don’t see any reason to believe there is such a place. I do, however, want to understand how people who do believe in Hell think about the suffering that those who are condemned there will endure.

I didn’t mean to imply that you personally were a sociopath. From your post you sound like a person who wants to help others (I believe this is what you mean by “works of mercy”) and I think that is awesome. But let’s say that you were in heaven and knew of people who were suffering and beyond the reach of mercy forever. How would you feel about that? That is the question that I was trying (perhaps too harshly) to get at.
If we are in heaven we will know and understand God and His will. What we think we know and understand now is nothing at all in comparison. Thus I firmly believe that we not have any questions about who may be in Hell. Heaven is perfect union with God.
 
If we are in heaven we will know and understand God and His will. What we think we know and understand now is nothing at all in comparison. Thus I firmly believe that we not have any questions about who may be in Hell. Heaven is perfect union with God.
You will understand why someone must be tortured forever?
 
Dear Lasting Faith,
Have you had the chance to sit with a dear friend, a priest, or a professional counselor to walk with you through your history? Yes, it will be painful. However, with the surfacing of that pain - you can look at yourself in a new light and release that pain in your history. The thoughts we hold and the emotions we carry - can affect us deeply for a long time. Releasing those pains - pains about your history - pains about the lacking of your biological parents in your life - can bring much healing.

May God help you, dear Lasting Faith, in the pains you have in regards to the missing parts of your life from your mother and father. May God continue to bless you towards healing with the sufferings you carry from panic disorder and depression.

Know that you are really a strong man - a strong father and grandfather - a strong child of God.
Thank you RoseMary, God sure made a good thing creating you.

I use to go to a “shrink” for about twelve years, then I still had the money, but it was not of any use for me. I did not tell anyone I, I felt pretty bad about it. Among my “heroes” is my grandfather who sadly did die in 1971 when I was just eleven years old, he was a true gentleman and officer who did continue his work as a businessman and diplomat after his career in the army (1918-1942) and we where left alone with my grandmother and I pretty much had to raise my self, she was a good person, but not the best parent, God bless her soul. So for most of my life I have been on my own, and I am not a very good parent my self, but I have tried to remember what my grandfather did teach me, but he was born 1901 as my granny was too, and his “world” was a very different one from the world he did live in the last decades of his life. He kept on working until he died, but I think he was confused. The moral standards like a handshake that really did mean “this contract is valid” was gone and I think he did not understand why his world did not exist anymore. And in a way I live between two worlds, the one I had growing up, my granny was very old fashioned so that was what I did grow up in, and the “today” world. But whatever the reason to my suffering, well, I know there a people who suffer much more, I need to understand not how I can get well but how to live with it, and that is hard part. Your answers gave me a new angle, and I will use that to see what I can do. So thank you, and God bless you.
 
You will understand why someone must be tortured forever?
I think we would understand why someone made the choices they made in their earthly life. Why that means they could not be in union with God. And why they cannot change after their earthly life. That’s the big question. If a person possesses an intellect and a heart, why they cannot repent and be saved after their earthly life. Or why they will not repent, even if they could.
 
I think we would understand why someone made the choices they made in their earthly life. Why that means they could not be in union with God. And why they cannot change after their earthly life. That’s the big question. If a person possesses an intellect and a heart, why they cannot repent and be saved after their earthly life. Or why they will not repent, even if they could.
If someone was dead set on drowning or hanging or cutting themselves would you do nothing to try to help them? Will no one feel regret in Hell? Why is there no mercy at that point?

I just cannot understand how rational, caring people can accept that situation. After a while I would go crazy from that torment from the guilt that I had what others can’t and beg to be cast down with them.
 
Even if God does does create the people with such disorders, he created the conditions that allow such disorders to exist.

If a workman poorly constructs a building and someone is injured as a result, is the workman not responsible despite not directly injuring the other person?

Why does God get off the hook when the workman does not?
I think you may misunderstand free will. Adam and Eve were free to disobey God or disobey God. They chose to obey, and this was their sin. Because of their disobedience to God they lost the purity they originally had, and that “injury” to their souls has been passed to all of us. God created all things to be good, but he respects our free will go choose. He is not a dictator that simply forces us to do as he wishes.

I believe that the premise of free will is most deeply rooted in our choices to sin or not to sin. All other aspects of life are the consequences that come along the way the path we have chosen. Example: I am free to steal, but if I do I offend God and I could land up in jail. That is not God’s fault, it is mine. If I don’t want to go to jail I need to avoid stealing. I am free to lie, but that lie may lead me down the path that holds unemployment, or a lost promotion or lost friendships.

These are simple examples, but basically every single thing we do, think and say or don’t say matters. There may be ten roads ahead of us, and we are free to choose the one we want, but we have no control of what lies ahead. The obstacles that are there, be they poor health, disaster, crime, war, or mental decay or illness, are the result of sin. It is sin that destroys the perfect order of God, not God that destroys His creation.
 
If someone was dead set on drowning or hanging or cutting themselves would you do nothing to try to help them? Will no one feel regret in Hell? Why is there no mercy at that point?

I just cannot understand how rational, caring people can accept that situation. After a while I would go crazy from that torment from the guilt that I had what others can’t and beg to be cast down with them.
Well there is a parable that Jesus says that has an interesting line in it.

Now there was a certain rich man,and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. He cried and said, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.”

But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish. Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us."

He said, “I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.”

But Abraham said to him, “They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.”

He said, “No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.”

He said to him, “If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.”

So Jesus was aware that there are people who would go from paradise to the side of those who are in torment. Why it is disallowed, I don’t know.
 
If someone was dead set on drowning or hanging or cutting themselves would you do nothing to try to help them? Will no one feel regret in Hell? Why is there no mercy at that point?

I just cannot understand how rational, caring people can accept that situation. After a while I would go crazy from that torment from the guilt that I had what others can’t and beg to be cast down with them.
Perhaps the thrust of that parable is that what we do in our lifetimes is the measure of what we do in eternity. The rich man, in his lifetime, could have gone to the side of the suffering but did not. Neither would he desire to go to the side of the suffering if he had gone to paradise and Lazarus had been in torment.

I don’t know anything about you, but if you were to preach all the good things that we should do and that you should do and remain steadfast in that belief all your life, but if you never went to the side of a suffering person in your life time, then what good is the preaching? Many of the people that you are appalled by do aide the suffering of this world. They feed the hungry, clothe the poor, visit those who are imprisoned, and do real world things for the suffering. Our Pope encourages us to do these things, as do our priests and bishops. That is real religion.

James 2:14-16
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

If what you say is true about wanting to be thrown down with those who are suffering in eternity, then you also are giving up what you have in this world for those that have nothing. Is this true, or are you just preaching in vain?
 
Perhaps the thrust of that parable is that what we do in our lifetimes is the measure of what we do in eternity. The rich man, in his lifetime, could have gone to the side of the suffering but did not. Neither would he desire to go to the side of the suffering if he had gone to paradise and Lazarus had been in torment.

I don’t know anything about you, but if you were to preach all the good things that we should do and that you should do and remain steadfast in that belief all your life, but if you never went to the side of a suffering person in your life time, then what good is the preaching? Many of the people that you are appalled by do aide the suffering of this world. They feed the hungry, clothe the poor, visit those who are imprisoned, and do real world things for the suffering. Our Pope encourages us to do these things, as do our priests and bishops. That is real religion.

James 2:14-16
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

If what you say is true about wanting to be thrown down with those who are suffering in eternity, then you also are giving up what you have in this world for those that have nothing. Is this true, or are you just preaching in vain?
I commend those who help the people that suffer in this world. I believe that doing so is the greatest way to help humanity. I live in a place where I see people suffering all the time. Do I do my part to help? Yes. Could I be doing more? Yes. I work for a group that helps to better less fortunate people’s lives.

Here on earth, though, I am preoccupied. I need food, shelter, work, money, etc…without those things I am not in a position to help anyone. In heaven I won’t need those things. I will (presumably) want for nothing. So what else could I do but contemplate those who suffer and despair at my inability to act.
 
A psychologist whom I greatly admired commented once on a person we both knew. (He wasn’t treating the man professionally) Anyway, the doctor described the person as a “socialized sociopath”. In other words, the person could regulate his conduct to meet the requirements of society, but did not have the kind of empathy most of us have.

So it seems to me a sociopath could (perhaps against odds, but I don’t know that) live an entirely moral, even saintly life. He would be “doing it by rote”, having learned what’s moral and immoral and following the first determinedly.

I realize sociopaths are believed to have been born that way, but I sometimes wonder about it a little. I grew up on a ranch in the country. It is simply a fact that I do not view animal suffering or death in the same way many others do. I don’t like seeing an animal suffer or die, but I do not feel about it even remotely the way I would think about it in a human. Not even remotely. If I see an animal in pain or seriously injured and if I know the situation cannot be relieved, my instinct is to put it out of its misery by killing it, which I do without the slightest remorse or emotional impact other than regret over the waste it may represent.

I think that’s acquired. A little farm kid will cry over a chicken that dies. An adult farmer won’t.

So, I suppose I am a “sociopath” as to animals only. I think a lot of country people are the same way. Most are excellent husbandmen of animals (and I claim to be as well) but do not cry over an animal the way a lot of people do. Empathy is being able to feel what another feels.

So I do think some people could simply suppress or quell the empathy they might otherwise feel toward people as well. Maybe some are “sociopaths by acquisition”.
 
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