Why are these Fora so overwhelming Conservative

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Another good thought!

While I do hate it when Catholics, like Alan says, play the “I’m more Catholic than you” card, the above cards from another deck are equally orgulous and obnoxious.

Alan? What say you? Does not Elizabeth make a valid point? 🍿
I say that’s a cool word, “orgulous.” 👍

Alan
 
I say that’s a cool word, “orgulous.” 👍

Alan
Aw, come on, Alan. You are the most humble and fair guy on the CAFs–it’s totally in your character to say, “Yep, I see your point.”

So do you not think that Elizabeth made a good one, with examples of certain types of CAFs being “holier than thou” but from the other deck of cards?
 
Aw, come on, Alan. You are the most humble and fair guy on the CAFs–it’s totally in your character to say, “Yep, I see your point.”

So do you not think that Elizabeth made a good one, with examples of certain types of CAFs being “holier than thou” but from the other deck of cards?
Sigh. OK just for you I went back and read her whooole post. It seemed quite unremarkable the first time through because it sounded like “well others do it too” which doesn’t surprise me or hopefully anyone else. So it took some focus to finish it. It sounds like it’s trying to justify bad behavior because others also exhibit bad behavior.

Just because I characterize a certain type of posting flaw with a certain point of view doesn’t let everyone else off the hook. I guess I need to state that explicitly.

But she is right in that it’s largely about labels. We want to stick “good” labels on ourselves, thus whoever disagrees with us must be in the “not good” territory. It’s about group and subgroup identity, which we apparently need to cling to.

If people would stick to discussing things heart to heart and speak their own beliefs with their own minds instead of trying to get a label or a quote or some authority that isn’t on the thread to do it for them, we’d have a lot more empathy for each other IMO. 👍

Alan
 
Sigh. OK just for you I went back and read her whooole post. …It sounds like it’s trying to justify bad behavior because others also exhibit bad behavior.
No, sigh. You didn’t read it well. 😉 Not at all.

It’s not about justifying bad behavior. It’s about myopia. It’s about limited vision in spotting the mote in the eyes of others when the you have a beam in “your” own.

Just for the record, while I read and hear orthodox Catholics describe themselves as more in line with Catholic doctrine (and by that deifnition, “more Catholic” ), I never read or hear them make comparisons of virtue between themselves and others, which is a regular habit on this site by those who define doctrinally correct Catholicism as “un-Christian,” “intolerant,” “lacking compassion,” and the entire list I submitted. It’s an artificial division, created not by orthodox Catholics but by their detractors: you see, orthodox Catholicism cannot be truly Christian because it (must be) intolerant, etc.

Except that it isn’t. There is nothing in Catholic moral theology as fully embraced and accurately understood that is any of those condemnatory adjectives. The phony dichotomy which is set up not by orthodox Catholics but by many of their opposers is that it is not possible to embrace correct doctrine and be a person filled with charity.

It’s absurd on its face, and absurd according to Catholic theology. Charity and doctrine are not in opposition. They never have been. It’s a phony antithesis, manufactured by the left, not the right. It’s a way of diminishing doctrine in favor of a self-created definition of Catholicism which eliminates doctrine, or reduces it radically, on the grounds that doctrine opposes love. Wrong. 😉

Doctrine, and those who answer doctrinal questions with doctrinal answers, are not intolerant. Specifically people are intolerant: people who choose a traditional emphasis and people who choose a much more loose emphasis.

Much of this is a failure of respondents to read, such as read a question being asked in an OP. A question (again, it doesn’t appear that you really read the context of my thoughts), which is asked about doctrine is appropriately answered with doctrine, not answered with emotion ( a non-answer). If you ask a question about whether something is a mortal sin, don’t react with horror when you receive an answer that in fact it is a mortal sin, because if you meant to ask something else, ask that instead.

And some people do ask “that,” instead. Some people need/want guidance. (“how do I stop committing X sin?”) I actually wish they would put those questions in the Spirituality forum, because frankly that is where such questions belong, i.m.o. But unfortunately they often end up in the Moral Theology forum when it’s not a moral theology question. And it stays there. (Further misfortune.)

In the case of such a question, the appropriate answer is not a doctrinal answer, but a guidance & resource answer, often with communicated support (‘tolerance,’ ‘compassion,’ ‘charity,’ etc.) In that case, a respondent offering a clinically orthodox answer would seem to miss the point of the charity.

I stand by the narrated scenario I have seen dominate the Moral Theology subforum, and which I previously described. Threads often start with accusatory questioning about why such and such is a sin (or why it supposedly shouldn’t be), and sometimes with implied threats about labels about to be laid upon anyone daring to re-assert doctrine. It’s a set up, often resulting in those who fall for the trap being accused of “lack of charity” or “being judgmental” for answering the question in the OP.

It’s a lot of nonsense for grown-ups to be engaging in.
 
No, sigh. You didn’t read it well. 😉 Not at all.

It’s not about justifying bad behavior. It’s about myopia. It’s about limited vision in spotting the mote in the eyes of others when the you have a beam in “your” own.
I’ve seen myopia as you describe. Are you going to say that such is a “bigger problem” for the so-called liberals than for the conservatives? If so, then you are justifying bad behavior by claiming the other side is as bad or worse. If you are not justifying bad behavior, then you should either deny it or proclaim it as bad – but don’t try to throw a smokescreen by taking the spotlight this thread has on the conservatives and showing it around. Nobody is claiming that non-conservatives are perfect, at least I’m not. Myself excepted of course. 😛
Just for the record, while I read and hear orthodox Catholics describe themselves as more in line with Catholic doctrine (and by that deifnition, “more Catholic” ), I never read or hear them make comparisons of virtue between themselves and others, which is a regular habit on this site by those who define doctrinally correct Catholicism as “un-Christian,” “intolerant,” “lacking compassion,” and the entire list I submitted. It’s an artificial division, created not by orthodox Catholics but by their detractors: you see, orthodox Catholicism cannot be truly Christian because it (must be) intolerant, etc.
So non-orthodox Catholics fall victim to self-centered, dualistic thinking. Surely this isn’t a problem with orthodox, right?
Except that it isn’t. There is nothing in Catholic moral theology as fully embraced and accurately understood that is any of those condemnatory adjectives. The phony dichotomy which is set up not by orthodox Catholics but by many of their opposers is that it is not possible to embrace correct doctrine and be a person filled with charity.
You know what’s really funny? That conservative Catholics don’t adhere to Catholic theology either. For example, when a conservative Catholic tells another Catholic they should change their stated religion because they obviously aren’t Catholic, they are themselves at odds with the Catechism. And in quite a few cases when I’ve brought this up, not a single conservative actually grasped the obvious truth of it. Oh yeah, they dance around rhetoric as if “well I didn’t mean they weren’t Catholic of course, but not a REAL Catholic,” or “a PRACTICING Catholic” – or whatever adjective they like to use to quarantine themselves from their opponent. It’s like, “I’m 100% Catholic and you obviously aren’t so I’m going to advise you to ignore the Catechism to demonstrate how Catholic I am and satisfy my ego that you are NOT, in fact, like ME. Duhhh.”

It’s as if the “Catholic experience” is enhanced by telling others they aren’t part of it. In our father’s house there are apparently many locked doors. :rolleyes:
It’s absurd on its face, and absurd according to Catholic theology. Charity and doctrine are not in opposition. They never have been. It’s a phony antithesis, manufactured by the left, not the right. It’s a way of diminishing doctrine in favor of a self-created definition of Catholicism which eliminates doctrine, or reduces it radically, on the grounds that doctrine opposes love. Wrong. 😉
You sure have this left/right blame thing down, don’t you? These liberal sinners are messing up Church for the conservative saints, it would seem. But are charity and doctrine really in opposition? All you have to do to see conservatives muddy those waters is to ask them why they think Jesus was just kidding when He told us not to judge. Whoom! Judgments for everyone!

Or, hey, if you don’t think conservative can behave badly, watch what happens if I go to the Trad section and open a thread about Vatican II and/or Communion in the Hand. Eucharistic ministers. What about the orans position for the Our Father? Communion while kneeling? Anything at all that has to do with ritual and all of a sudden it’s not about obeying the pastor. Nor is it about exercising the choices the Church gave us. No, it’s about second guessing the Church for caving to “disobedience,” which turns out means that you don’t trust Church authority – because it clearly caves into popular demand – so we go by only that part of Church authority which we accept. :whacky:
If you ask a question about whether something is a mortal sin, don’t react with horror when you receive an answer that in fact it is a mortal sin, because if you meant to ask something else, ask that instead.
I’ve seen that happen. OTOH, I’ve seen a lot of presumption. An OP will state a case, somebody will jump on the OP telling them something is a mortal sin, and it turns out it isn’t because once again, those who like to point fingers are inconvenienced by the difference between grave matter and mortal sin.

If someone asks if something is a mortal sin, and some do-gooder tells them it is before establishing full knowledge and consent, then that person is lying and helps explain why we see so many cases of scrupulosity. It’s because things they did by accident or not knowing are mortal sins. So people go around thinking they have to be careful of “accidentally” committing on a mortal sin – an oxymoron. They think that at any given time they may have committed a mortal sin, and go around in constant fear of hell.

So you can keep your advice that something is a mortal sin just because a conservative says it is grave matter. Those who accuse should learn a little more about the terms they use. There is a difference in the terms as used here by accusers, compared to the Church definition.
It’s a lot of nonsense for grown-ups to be engaging in.
Guess it makes the day goes by, eh? 😉

Sound like you hang out a lot in Moral Theology. Maybe I’ll stop by and visit there. Meanwhile, I wish you peace, joy, love, and “have a nice day.” 🙂

Alan
 
Sigh. OK just for you I went back and read her whooole post.
Just for me? :kiss4you:
It seemed quite unremarkable the first time through because it sounded like “well others do it too” which doesn’t surprise me or hopefully anyone else. So it took some focus to finish it. It sounds like it’s trying to justify bad behavior because others also exhibit bad behavior.
Well, what I was hoping for was more of a, “Oh, sheesh. I guess you’re right. Sometimes the liberal Catholics can also be haughty and condescending and holier than thou.”

I enjoyed Elizabeth’s post because it caused a :newidea: to light up my brain. As in, “Huh. I have indeed read posts like that in which a liberal Catholic was proclaiming–usually in an oh-so-subtle way–how much more [insert: tolerant, Christ-like, compassionate, charitable]she was than an orthodox Catholic.”
Just because I characterize a certain type of posting flaw with a certain point of view doesn’t let everyone else off the hook. I guess I need to state that explicitly.
Now, I’m not a sensitive person. I happen to like blunt and forthright people–some of my besties are my girlfriends who can tell me, “That outfit looks horrid. Are you going to change?” and that wouldn’t hurt my feelings one iota.

But if I were a sensitive type, I think the above bolded would sound a bit condescending.

But I think I know you a bit, and know you didn’t mean it that way. I was just sayin’…that sometimes sensitive people can read into others’ posts some condescension that wasn’t there at all,. right?
 
Just for me? :kiss4you:
Awww … shucks. :blushing:
Well, what I was hoping for was more of a, “Oh, sheesh. I guess you’re right. Sometimes the liberal Catholics can also be haughty and condescending and holier than thou.”
I was pretty sure you were after something like that. No way was I going to give it up that easily. 😉
But if I were a sensitive type, I think the above bolded would sound a bit condescending.
If not sensitive, then maybe we could call it “perceptive.” I still get little bits of my damaged ego flying around and sometimes they get caught in the communications stream. Usually they self-announce between the time I post and the time the editing window is over, but in this case they got through. I sincerely regret having caused My Lady any discomfort. :imsorry:
But I think I know you a bit, and know you didn’t mean it that way. I was just sayin’…that sometimes sensitive people can read into others’ posts some condescension that wasn’t there at all,. right?
Yes. Right. You are so right. (I think I’m in love ❤️ )

Alan
 
Sad. There are only two types of Catholics: practicing and non-practicing. It’s not anyone’s business to pick and choose based on anonymous internet posts.

Catholics should carry no labels. The laity are called to help the Church spread the Gospel and to carry out the works Christ gave us to do, like helping the poor.

I’ve totally lost interest in politics. I have zero political affiliation, and will vote according to my conscience and the well-considered guidelines provided by the Bishops.

Peace,
Ed
 
I see there are two different types of Catholics. The kind that puts people into categories, and the kind that doesn’t.
 
Sad. There are only two types of Catholics: practicing and non-practicing. It’s not anyone’s business to pick and choose based on anonymous internet posts.

Catholics should carry no labels. The laity are called to help the Church spread the Gospel and to carry out the works Christ gave us to do, like helping the poor.

I’ve totally lost interest in politics. I have zero political affiliation, and will vote according to my conscience and the well-considered guidelines provided by the Bishops.

Peace,
Ed
Catholics can carry any labels they choose. We are not to be drones of any type. We are to follow the Spirit, and to accept the Sacraments. This is the Temple of the Holy Spirit!
 
I was pretty sure you were after something like that. No way was I going to give it up that easily. 😉
That hurts my feelings, Alan.

Since you know that means so much to me, and you are quite generous in other threads, with proferring that sentiment*, why not give it up to me here?

Hah! Not really! I’m not that prissy and I don’t get my feelings hurt that easily. 😃

*I can totally picture us, sitting around this patio, sipping our bevarage of choice, eating something deliciously unhealthy, discussing religion, and your saying, "PR, I see your point here. Sometimes liberal Catholics can indeed be holier than thou. It’s just a different criterion we use to define ‘holier.’ "



But for some reason you “won’t give it up that easily” today. :confused:
 
That hurts my feelings, Alan.

Since you know that means so much to me, and you are quite generous in other threads, with proferring that sentiment*, why not give it up to me here?
Sorry. With each good thing I say, my pride builds up until it escapes, one way or t’other. Now and then it reaches critical mass and makes me play the stubborn card for a round or two. In extreme cases, I’ve had threats of having my man card taken away. 😛
Hah! Not really! I’m not that prissy and I don’t get my feelings hurt that easily. 😃
No surprise there. 😃
*I can totally picture us, sitting around this patio, sipping our bevarage of choice, eating something deliciously unhealthy, discussing religion, and your saying, "PR, I see your point here. Sometimes liberal Catholics can indeed be holier than thou. It’s just a different criterion we use to define ‘holier.’ "
But for some reason you “won’t give it up that easily” today. :confused:
Here. I’ll do it. You may have your vision. PRmerger, I see your point here. Sometimes liberal Catholics can indeed be holier than thou. It’s just a different criterion we use to define ‘holier.’

Now, I suggest you have a nice day. :tiphat:

Alan
 
Are you just saying that to get the last word?:rolleyes::rolleyes:
😉
No.

What else should I have said? 🤷

I guess I could say, “Thank you, Alan, for acknowledging that lots of liberal folks here like to use the ‘I’m more tolerant/holy/Christlike/compassionate’ than you on these threads.”

:cool:
 
No.

What else should I have said? 🤷

I guess I could say, “Thank you, Alan, for acknowledging that lots of liberal folks here like to use the ‘I’m more tolerant/holy/Christlike/compassionate’ than you on these threads.”

:cool:
You could have said that. But…then again you could have just said “thanks, and you too”.

Now that’s what I call confident.👍
 
I don’t see how the Church teachings overlap with economic conservatism. Economic conservatism is rugged individualism. In Acts, we see the believers actually practicing socialism – they pooled their resources.

Acts 4
32 The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common.
33 With great power the apostles bore witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great favor was accorded them all.
34 There was no needy person among them, for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale,
35 and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need.

Right?

Alan
Maybe not.

Funny thing about those verses in Acts–by the time they were written, the things the very early Jerusalem church did was ancient history! The Christians by the time Acts was written apparently were not pooling their resources, but had to be told what the very earliest Christians in Jerusalem had done.
This can be done in a small community that is of one heart and mind but I don’t know about a large community that is not of one heart and mind.
And, why were they doing this? Because by doing so they were giving to God. Jesus said, render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s. This means taking care of the needy is the Church’s business, not Caesar’s. When we give to Caesar what is God’s we decrease God and Church but increase Caesar.

Today we are giving to Caesar what is God’s.
 
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