Why are these Fora so overwhelming Conservative

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I don’t have to have it both ways, That’s a diversion. I can say “reportedly” and that can include belief or disbelief.
Fair enough. But when you quote the “reported” behavior of Jesus you are using the Catholic Church as your source.

Are we agreed on that?

Or is there some other source you are using to know what Jesus said and did?

Also, do you apply this paradigm to other historical figures? Whenever you’re at a cocktail party and discussing history do you always preface your statements with, “Well, I didn’t ever meet Shakespeare, but he reportedly wrote ‘The Merchant of Venice’ although I must be honest and say that I didn’t actually see him take the quill and put it to parchment, so I guess I’m not quite sure that he really did write that…”???
 
The purpose of the written law of sin and death, is to put us to death. That way we die to sin and it no longer causes us problems. We are raised to life by the law of spirit and life. (see Rom 7)
Rom 7:6
But now we are released from the law, dead to what held us captive, so that we may serve in the newness of the spirit and not under the obsolete letter.
Gal 3:
10 For all who depend on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law.”
11 And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for “the one who is righteous by faith will live.”
12 But the law does not depend on faith; rather, “the one who does these things will live by them.”
13 Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree,”

Alan
And none of that contradicts Catholic moral theology. Catholics may understand the above passages differently than their authoritative meaning indicates, but that’s a different matter entirely, and has to do with insufficient catechesis, poor backgorund in scriptural scholarship, or “private (unorthodox) interpretation.” Paul’s understanding of law and its relationship to the Christian life is more complex than “law” somehow being less important, not important, or discredited. In Paul’s world, law did not mean merely all regulation.
 
Fair enough. But when you quote the “reported” behavior of Jesus you are using the Catholic Church as your source.

Are we agreed on that?
No, not really. I would, do, actually, include for my own considerations, other factors than the, in my opinion, uh… what word to use… limiting interpretations of the Church, the same ones I extolled and proselytized so many moons ago.
Or is there some other source you are using to know what Jesus said and did?
I can’t know so much exactly what Jesus said and did, but for my part I make inferences useful to my own understanding from other sources as to what else or different it is possible He might have meant by the words attributed to Him, as far as they might be accurate.

Also, do you apply this paradigm to other historical figures? Whenever you’re at a cocktail party and discussing history do you always preface your statements with, “Well, I didn’t ever meet Shakespeare, but he reportedly wrote ‘The Merchant of Venice’ although I must be honest and say that I didn’t actually see him take the quill and put it to parchment, so I guess I’m not quite sure that he really did write that…”??? Yes, even to friends, family, personalities, books, etc. It is a teleological process.

As one woman I greatly admire stated, “No one has ever met anyone.” And as I have tried to explain in diagrams and words to anyone who wishes to talk about it, the overlap between people that constitutes commonality, compared to each ones inner world, is minuscule. And Shakespeare is, thank you, an excellent example, there being several theories as to who wrote what is attributed to him, including with transparencies and overlays, similarly to Paul and Peter, and other Biblical whoop-de-doo’s, also detected though similar literary and historical analysis.

But no, I don’t make many such awkward prefaces, at least with people I know or whom I’'m trying to be pleasant with even when I may not want to. But here we have to put a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff on the table for clarity or for argument. So that’s my shot explanation for on here.
 
No, not really. I would, do, actually, include for my own considerations, other factors than the, in my opinion, uh… what word to use… limiting interpretations of the Church, the same ones I extolled and proselytized so many moons ago.
Such as?

What other sources have you used to tell you what Jesus said and did?

And I do hope you answer my question as to what you think the Passion, Death and Resurrection meant, since you said something like “I don’t believe it means what we were taught it mean.s”
 
But no, I don’t make many such awkward prefaces, at least with people I know or whom I’'m trying to be pleasant with even when I may not want to. But here we have to put a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff on the table for clarity or for argument. So that’s my shot explanation for on here.
Great.

And do you do your own research each and every time you get on a plane, to make sure that the pilot is qualified to fly the plane? Or do you take someone else’s word for it?

And do you only say “Manila is the capital of the Philippines” only if you’ve actually been there? Or do you take someone else’s word that Manila is the capital of the Philippines?
 
Hi again Lisa, I hope you don’t mind me not quoting your last post to me because with its length and in turn my response, I fear it will surpass the allotted limit of space.

And I have found I’m someone who might define “pro life” and “life issues” differently than many do today. I certainly for instance do not subscribe to the general thinking I find in many quarters that you are “pro life” if you want to see Roe overturned and you are not “pro life” if you are “pro choice”. Neither do I accept that pro choice means someone is pro abortion. These are non starters with me. So I’m not sure we are going to get very far. But I’ll give it a try.

“Pro life” encompasses for me far more than abortion, stem cells and euthanasia. I affirm the sacrednes of life. I would not see myself, if I had a uterus, choosing an abortion. But in terms of secular legislation on this particular issue, I at the same time simply hesitate not to affirm some rights to women in regard to their bodies and reproductive freedom, in regard to freedom and responsibility of individual conscience on this issue. I see abortion as a conflict in rights. On the one hand the rights of the unborn and on the otherhand rights of women. One vs the other. I see it as an especially very difficult issue. I do also though see Roe for instance as attempting to strike some balance. Affirming the rights of women to a point with some restrictions allowed. The only opportunity I myself have directly had to vote on an issue restricting abortion access was a vote on parental notification with an “out” for those who feared abuse by their parents in which case a proceeding would be in place before a judge. I voted for the restriction. But I also hesitate not allowing a woman a choice if her own life is in danger. In cases of rape or incest. I can’t walk in her shoes. With respect to these differing beliefs concerning abortion, I do hesitate not to oppose attempts to legislate a specific religious opinion on abortion for all Americans. At the same time I never vote for a political candidate solely on the basis of abortion and whether they are pro choice or anti choice. I’m not a single issue voter. I weigh so many issues that the abortion issue for me has never overridden the many others on which I base a decision.

Actually no I don’t believe all issues are equal. But you don’t have to spend much time wondering if my priorities comport with Church teaching. In your use of “Church”, I’m going to assume you mean the Catholic Church. I’m apparently not a Catholic, not even a non practicing one as you can see from my profile. So it’s not necessary to me that they comport. In addition honestly it somewhat causes me to ponder that abortion has become such an overwhelming issue in the Catholic Church, far outweighing all others when I’ve yet to find the word abortion mentioned by Christ nor find it anywhere in the Bible. I find in OT passages where the penalty for the death of a woman who is struck, is greater than that if her fetus dies. I find Christ talking a great deal more about things like the poor, caring for the sick, the homeless, the hungry, the prisoner, about turning the other cheek, loving our neighbor, and peace than I do abortion or gays. And yet beyond abortion, today in the Catholic Church gay issues even seem to be a greater emphasis than the other issues I mentioned.

This direction would concern me if I were Catholic and speaking for the Catholic Church.

But I’m going to bold this next part so everyone sees it and no one accuses me of trying to lead people astray from Catholic teaching, doctrine, dogma. or what have you. I am not speaking on behalf of and do not speak for the Catholic Church. I speak only as and for CMatt25 in anything I have said up to this point and beyond. 👍

Btw yes I know the Catholic Church does a lot for the poor. I say that only because I’m usually hit with that when I talk of priorities. But I figure there is never a lack of need.

Anyways I also don’t see the consistency you do. You left the Methodists because they oppose the death penalty but support a woman’s right to choose. CCC 2267 does teach that “the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically non-existent”. Yet the Catholic Church in saying this still leaves that door open for rare cases in which Catholics in society can support the state taking another’s life. And in these cases the life without any question is the life of a human person. Where it also makes it more difficult for me to see the consistency you do, is when I see Catholic conservatives supporting the death penalty in far more than rare cases. Many a Catholic Republican I’ve known have generally supported the death penalty in far more cases than rare. Yet no one seems to blink an eye with them. They are considered faithful Catholics.

Me on the otherhand, I personally would not procure an abortion if I could, legal or otherwise. Nor do I support the death penalty in any case whatsoever. I in my own personal faith life am consistent on the two and you may be so as well. I know you would not abort and if you oppose the death penalty in all cases, maybe we’re actually not as far off the pg from one another as you may think.

There are various things I ponder about Catholic teaching. I can’t go into all of the specifics. And the last time I mentioned a heavy yoke, I received a reprimand for “heresay”. So I unfortunately am not free to speak about such things. But while I know Catholic thought about discerning the body and receiving worthily, turning people away who come to Christ when in Jn 6 He said He would turn no one away who comes to Him is something that nevertheless troubles me. Just to give you a specific example. This is getting far too long though as it is.

To your last point to me if I recall it correctly, I agree everyone sins including Peter and the sins of Catholic Church human leaders have caused many to doubt and to question. I find it hard though to fault someone when they read Jesus saying we will know by their fruits, if someone then draws the line of fruits at Apostolic successors covering up child abuse while at the same time they are preaching the sanctity of life. I understand the argument used on CAF too though that everyone sins. To know by their fruits? Where to draw the line? All difficult questions that I simply have no definitive absolute answer to suit everyone at this time.

Anyway sorry for such a long response so I’d better wrap. But you had a lot of questions and I hope this at least helps. Peace.
 
Really, on a day to day basis, it shouldn’t matter what Jesus said specifically under a particular circumstances. Like I once said, it isn’t “What Would Jesus Do,” as much as “What Would Jesus have Us do?” Jesus didn’t come to program us for robotic good behavior; if that were the case Jesus’s own program would have been faulty because He did not even follow the written rules of His own church. (I guess that makes Him a liberal, or a “cafeteria” worshiper?)

That’s because I see the Bible as a training manual, not as a cookbook. No written system of rules can cover all cases of what is right and wrong in any given situation. We know that because such a system would not require the Holy Spirit to even exist. A Kung Fu master doesn’t get out the books or go through exercises when there is a battle to be won; by the time he reaches for his books he would have lost. We need guidance on a moment by moment basis; we are supposed to become born again and receive knowledge of the kingdom and be guided by the Holy Spirit. And the Church’s main job is to help us come to that point. It may be pretty scary for someone who follows recipes exclusively and doesn’t know how to substitute using the ingredients at hand.

I feel that conservatives in general (not just those on these forums) tend to downplay anything involving the Spirit because the Spirit cannot be predicted, defined, or controlled. That doesn’t go well around people who are taught a monarcharcial system because that would imply distributed system of control and we can’t have that – even though it appears to me to be exactly what Jesus was teaching us. How to make instant decisions based on our own formation and guidance by the Spirit, in any given situation.

Alan
 
Really, on a day to day basis, it shouldn’t matter what Jesus said specifically under a particular circumstances. Like I once said, it isn’t “What Would Jesus Do,” as much as “What Would Jesus have Us do?” Jesus didn’t come to program us for robotic good behavior; if that were the case Jesus’s own program would have been faulty because He did not even follow the written rules of His own church. (I guess that makes Him a liberal, or a “cafeteria” worshiper?)

That’s because I see the Bible as a training manual, not as a cookbook. No written system of rules can cover all cases of what is right and wrong in any given situation. We know that because such a system would not require the Holy Spirit to even exist. A Kung Fu master doesn’t get out the books or go through exercises when there is a battle to be won; by the time he reaches for his books he would have lost. We need guidance on a moment by moment basis; we are supposed to become born again and receive knowledge of the kingdom and be guided by the Holy Spirit. And the Church’s main job is to help us come to that point. It may be pretty scary for someone who follows recipes exclusively and doesn’t know how to substitute using the ingredients at hand.

I feel that conservatives in general (not just those on these forums) tend to downplay anything involving the Spirit because the Spirit cannot be predicted, defined, or controlled. That doesn’t go well around people who are taught a monarcharcial system because that would imply distributed system of control and we can’t have that – even though it appears to me to be exactly what Jesus was teaching us. How to make instant decisions based on our own formation and guidance by the Spirit, in any given situation.

I should take a vote. I’m wondering if the conservative Catholics who largely ignore the Holy Spirit except during formal prayer, have any idea what it’s like to be moved by the Spirit. Probably not, I’d guess, or they’d pay more heed to someone other than only theology scholars. Or there are many who seem to feel like we can only trust the Holy Spirit when it’s in somebody else’s hands – somebody with credentials – even though Jesus spent His ministry speaking against the association of credentials with True Faith.

Alan
 
Really, on a day to day basis, it shouldn’t matter what Jesus said specifically under a particular circumstances. Like I once said, it isn’t “What Would Jesus Do,” as much as “What Would Jesus have Us do?” Jesus didn’t come to program us for robotic good behavior; if that were the case Jesus’s own program would have been faulty because He did not even follow the written rules of His own church. (I guess that makes Him a liberal, or a “cafeteria” worshiper?)

That’s because I see the Bible as a training manual, not as a cookbook. No written system of rules can cover all cases of what is right and wrong in any given situation. We know that because such a system would not require the Holy Spirit to even exist. A Kung Fu master doesn’t get out the books or go through exercises when there is a battle to be won; by the time he reaches for his books he would have lost. We need guidance on a moment by moment basis; we are supposed to become born again and receive knowledge of the kingdom and be guided by the Holy Spirit. And the Church’s main job is to help us come to that point. It may be pretty scary for someone who follows recipes exclusively and doesn’t know how to substitute using the ingredients at hand.

I feel that conservatives in general (not just those on these forums) tend to downplay anything involving the Spirit because the Spirit cannot be predicted, defined, or controlled. That doesn’t go well around people who are taught a monarcharcial system because that would imply distributed system of control and we can’t have that – even though it appears to me to be exactly what Jesus was teaching us. How to make instant decisions based on our own formation and guidance by the Spirit, in any given situation.

I should take a vote. I’m wondering if the conservative Catholics who largely ignore the Holy Spirit except during formal prayer, have any idea what it’s like to be moved by the Spirit. Probably not, I’d guess, or they’d pay more heed to someone other than theology scholars exclusively. Or there are many who seem to feel like we can only trust the Holy Spirit when it’s in somebody else’s hands – somebody with credentials – even though Jesus spent His ministry speaking against the association of credentials with True Faith.

Alan
 
If I were a person seeking for religious truth I think in general I would be put off the Catholic religion by some of these fora. Many of them are over concerned with externals and sacramentals. Many of them (particularly the threads regarding creationism and Jose Escriba and snake handling) are astonishingly undereducated. And others display an a almost uniform demand that the Church is viewed through an arch conservative lens.
I cannot speak for other fora but this one has a fascinating variety of posts reflecting every shade of opinion on a remarkable range of subjects from individuals all over the world. We never know what to expect next!

It is doubtful whether a person seeking for religious truth would be concerned with the more specialised aspects of the Catholic Faith. Philosophy and Apologetics are the most logical places to start.
 
I cannot speak for other fora but this one has a fascinating variety of posts reflecting every shade of opinion on a remarkable range of subjects from individuals all over the world. We never know what to expect next!

It is doubtful whether a person seeking for religious truth would be concerned with the more specialised aspects of the Catholic Faith. Philosophy and Apologetics are the most logical places to start.
👍
 
All of them. Whatever for me comnstituted the faith.
What other sources have you used to tell you what Jesus said and did?
I’m not going to catalog my library shelves for you, PR. There are many books thereon, with imprimatur and nihil obstat and without. Mostly without. While the Church, in my opinion, loves to defend itself, it does not like to look at itself. Some books are about Jesus and the Saints, and some about or by Saints and Sages of the Ages. Many are about language, psychology, religion, critical thinking, and other topics relevant to Jesus, the Church, and other related topics. Many are about the meaning of the word “I” in scriptures. As someone said, the short words are the slipperiest. I read a lot, by most standards. I’m sure you have access to your own list of wonderful material.

And if I did do such an inventory for you, we’d go into, I’m sure, your opinions about the validity and truth of what I read. I’ve no interest in going there. But I’m sure you understand that simply reading something does not constitute agreement, only research.
And I do hope you answer my question as to what you think the Passion, Death and Resurrection meant, since you said something like “I don’t believe it means what we were taught it means”
That you have to decide for yourself. To me, they are very real and very influential. It is just necessary for me to take them at more than the advertised value as book learning or faith. But if there is a drawback to faith, it might be that while one might claim to grow in it, for an observer that might only mean further entrenchment. It is a matter of perspective and need.

So I try to deal in ideas derived from my considerations surrounding my inner experience and include possibilities not offered on the Roman Catholic menu, if for no other reason than to have a greater overview of those possibilities leading to a sense of integrity and insight greater than I had as a strict Catholic.

That adherence did not, for me, cover a primary issue of relevance. I had to go elsewhere for that, unfortunately. It is only lately that I have found some reconciliation with the Church and have shifted my perspective of what is possible “within” it. My opinion, though, that Church teaching heavily veils what is at its core, and even diverts inquiry from it, remains. At least now I see why that might be so.

In short (not “shot” as I misspelled somewhere else, lol!) it is useless to discuss these things unless there is a more parallel experience or pressing need to discover outside the paradigm of simple faith, however complexly it is known. Contentment is no prompter in this kind of journey, and that, unfortunately is what faith tends to do: provide the feeling that the faith itself, as presented and personally understood, is sufficient. Maybe for many it is, at one point for me it wasn’t.

It seems then that most discussions about extra mural ideas tend to become a skirmish of defenses against the unknown. But diving into that Unknown is the only way out of belief. Someone earlier (I think it was expunged) said words to the effect that to have faith is the whole point. For me the whole point is to overcome it as part of the world. You know, like John 16:33.
 
Great.

And do you do your own research each and every time you get on a plane, to make sure that the pilot is qualified to fly the plane? Or do you take someone else’s word for it?
Again, a great example. You are wonderful at this! No I don’t make such inquiries. I trust from observance of commonality, despite knowing, being interested in aeronautics, that accidents happen, even huge course variations resulting in disaster. And again, we are talking about an area radically different than religious faith, to which such an analogy can hardly apply.

But that is where this is such a great example you chose. Perhaps you have heard that they discovered why Air France 477 went down in the Atlantic? Even heard the voiced over black box recording? It seems that while the captain was on break, the co-pilot lost control of the plane due to a dysfunction in the electronics. those failed in a way that made the co-pilot blind to whether the plane was ascending or descending.* It was night, and there was no visible horizon. An argument ensued, with great confusion, and by the time the captain, who very likely know what to do, returned, it was too late.

The problem was, as one of the analysts described, that when the failure occurred, the two in the cockpit couldn’t see through the electronics, given that they had been trained to uterly rely on them. The captain, on the other hand, had actual stick and rudder experience, being older, and would have, had he been in his seat, been able to deal properly with the defective indicators and regain control because of his extensive experience with direct controls in smaller and older, and non military aircraft.

So in this instance the reliance on the instrumentation that blinded the two in the cockpit can be analogous to the hugely extrapolated doctrine of the Church as distinct from what I see as the rather simple Presence and Teaching of Our Lord. But I could not see that until the entire rug of who and what I thought I was was instantaneously, unceremoniously, and without warning pulled completely, absolutely, and irrevocably out from under me. That is when I saw that I had no direct, only inculcated, patterns of reaction to the presentation of the world. And nothing I had access to at that time within the Church, despite sincere and strenuous efforts, could suffice as an explanation or paradigm for what had happened to me.

I was supremely fortunate. I was literally knocked out of the box I had been using to interpret the world and could see that it was a box. Sort of an OBE, but more profound, maybe an OME. Anyway, it changed my life, and I had to look elsewhere for answers, which serendipitously, I found and discovered I was not alone. Or rather that I am, lol!
And do you only say “Manila is the capital of the Philippines” only if you’ve actually been there? Or do you take someone else’s word that Manila is the capital of the Philippines?
I distinguish in my own mind between knowledge by experience and knowledge by book learning and such. For all we know, vastly unlikely as that might be, Manila has changed its name while we weren’t looking. So for me, that Manila exists by that name and is arrivable at by x means is provisional knowledge. And I use it that way, not claiming to know anything more than what is in actuality, hearsay. And in some cases I have some pretty good knowledge of consensus hearsay.

To both kinds of knowledge I try to apply critical thinking and what little I know about the nature of the human mind, perceptions, the over a hundred logical fallacies we usually use to get along incorrectly with each other, the inherent dualism of our English language, epistemology, etc, etc, etc. So my world paradigm may be a bit different than yours, which by your questions appears to be more amorphous than what I perceive, or at least more in a mold of inculcated relationships and explanations. I don’t know. As I quoted, “no one has ever met anyone.” But at least you are interesting to talk with. 🙂
 
Yipes!

You’re not one of those “Shakespeare didn’t really write all those things attributed to him” folks, are you?

If so…

elisakreisinger.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/eyeroll.gif
That’s funny!

Not so much, but there are questions, yes? You don’t have to agree or dis, but there are questions, ones you clearly dismiss. And maybe you are doing that in an area which may not be so deserving of such eye rolling. The gif reminds me that some of our trainings in disaster mitigation and such included the emphatic warning that the first nearly intractable human response in the face of disaster is denial. Go figure. I mean, how useful is that?
 
All of them. Whatever for me comnstituted the faith.

I’m not going to catalog my library shelves for you, PR. There are many books thereon, with imprimatur and nihil obstat and without. Mostly without. While the Church, in my opinion, loves to defend itself, it does not like to look at itself.
I wonder how acquainted you are with Catholic theology and scholarship, as opposed to the strident apologetics favored by folks on this forum?

Because I find your statement to be completely wrong. I find Catholic theology and scholarship to be extremely self-critical and reflective, particularly after Vatican II. The “apologetics” movement is in fact a reaction to this–the Catholic elites were unfortunately so busy nuancing things that they didn’t bother communicating to ordinary Catholics just why Catholicism was worth while in the first place. So the gap has been filled by triumphalistic rosary-waving.

Edwin
 
No written system of rules can cover all cases of what is right and wrong in any given situation.
Correct. Catholic moral theology is a guide, but based on principles, and those principles are in fact absolute. The particular situations an individual faces may (sometimes do!) require discernment (via the Holy Spirit, via prayer, via spiritual direction), as well as rational weighing/prioritizing of “what should be done.” That’s when it comes to truly gray areas: decision-making for which there is no “recipe.”

But that’s not the central issue driving the thread-openers in the Moral Theology subforum (and the accompanying complaints about “conservative.”) The overwhelming percentage of thread-openers in Moral Theology concern matters below the navel, and whether any Catholic of any age or conversion status wants to accept it or not, the morality of sexual behavior in the Catholic moral guide does not include a lot of gray area, and (in that sense) could be defined as “conservative.”
I’m wondering if the conservative Catholics who largely ignore the Holy Spirit except during formal prayer, have any idea what it’s like to be moved by the Spirit. Probably not, I’d guess, or they’d pay more heed to someone other than certain approved theology scholars.
What a judgmental thing to say, and how would you have any idea which CAF posters do and do not
largely ignore the Holy Spirit except during formal prayer
or do not
have any idea what it’s like to be moved by the Spirit.
That is judgment of individual spirituality, which violates forum rules because it violates charity, and is explicitly mentioned to be a violation.

Not to mention, what you would you know about their theological reading habits? You surely do not know how well and widely read I am. The Catholic Church does not restrict or forbid the reading habits of any Catholic, nor does she consider it a moral failing to read widely, including theologians with radical & potentially heretical views. People who are theologically educated know how to judge good from bad because they understand the principles involved in that theological judgment. There is either a consistent framework of terms and reasoning or there isn’t. Not to mention, it becomes obvious who is a critical thinker and who is not. There are shallow fads in theology, just as there are in politics and journalism and education.
 
PR, your thumbs up was in regard to people seeking Truth. Which by your posts I think you believe with certainty is found in your church.

But have I missed it or have you responded to these excerpts from an earlier post of Gaber’s? I’d be curious how you respond to these specific points beyond comparing the capital of the Phillipines with religous faith. Although I personally know that is a favorite of yours. I’m surprised though Fred hasn’t also come up in your discussion with Gaber. 🙂

Excerpts from an earlier post of Gaber’s -

“you can claim inspiration, tradition, and divine guidance, but even a pure “message” from “the other side” has to go through the filter of interpretation… neither of us speak Aramaic of Greek, eh? So thereby we invite, due to distance in time, space, culture, intention, meaning, nuance, colloquialism, translation, the nature of witnessing, collections, canons, and a host of other factors, not just a few disciplines, including self knowledge, semantics, critical thinking, etc,etc, etc into the equation.”

" I’d say that you display an inordinate level of conviction given what is indeed at hand when anyone says “Jesus said____” and you assume with 1/1 certainty that you personally know exactly and without any iota of deviation what He meant."

“I can’t speak for Jesus. Perhaps you can, by third partying your understanding to the Magesterium. I can’t do that and be honest with myself or have integrity, other than to use that as included information.”

“And I can question all that, because if one can experience, even for a moment, an emotional divorce from the inculcations of that or any belief system, one is in a radically different perspective of assessment.”

“neither of us can claim “something about Jesus,” What we might claim is an understanding we have arrived at either from experience, research, inculcation, faith, agreement, or whatever and their combinations. But neither of us does or can have direct knowledge of Jesus. We have no direct knowledge even of the totality of our personality, that showing itself in fragments and various masks according to situations, or even our dearest ones, beyond what we assume from our interactions. Or are you going to tell me that you have never misunderstood any of your beloved children, even a bit?”

“If yes, how can you or anyone be so blessed adamantly certain that they have a 1/1 knowledge of Jesus, His Teachings as He intended, and for whom He intended, personally or beyond? (Remember, you have Paul to thank for winning out against Peter about who can be Christian, eh? Lord, he went up against the first Pope, for heaven/s sake!) And, as I have often said, there is Mark 4:33,34, and some other related matters.”
 
I wonder how acquainted you are with Catholic theology and scholarship, as opposed to the strident apologetics favored by folks on this forum?

Because I find your statement to be completely wrong. I find Catholic theology and scholarship to be extremely self-critical and reflective, particularly after Vatican II. The “apologetics” movement is in fact a reaction to this–the Catholic elites were unfortunately so busy nuancing things that they didn’t bother communicating to ordinary Catholics just why Catholicism was worth while in the first place. So the gap has been filled by triumphalistic rosary-waving.

Edwin
Yes, you make a useful distinction and a good point. I am way more acquainted with the “strident apologetics favored by folks on this forum” and " triumphalistic (! 🙂 ) rosary-waving" than current reflection within the scholarly considerations of the Church.

However, there is much i might say about both the nuancing and the lack of hierarchical communications, and that primarily relative to what the Church might fundamentally be about. So far, I have read but one contemporary Roman Catholic who, as far as I can tell, harmonizes at a deep, or elevated, take your choice, level with what I have arrived at as what is most likely the point of Jesus Teaching.

I’ll say more about that, but have to leave now for an appointment.

Thanks for your comment!
 
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