Why are these Fora so overwhelming Conservative

[Gaber]

In this case, the “print” was only limited by your unfortunate reference to tradition ala Fiddler on the Roof. This clearly showed your misunderstanding (again) of what Catholicism proclaims.

I suggest that you learn more about the faith that you left before trying to engage me in a dialogue, as it pertains to what Catholicism teaches. Or, we can discuss your errors and make them right. I’d be happy to do that.

Errors?

You know what, PR, you can be happy by yourself. You can criticize my catechesis up the wazoo. But you haven’t put up a single reply based on your experience, you’ve been dismissive, and a few other words that I won’t put down, though they are relatively mild. You very much remind me of the manager AG mentions in another post, but because you to take a bitty thing and inflate it to represent the whole issue, while ignoring many points that indicate a need for some questioning. I believe that in terms of conservative Catholicism, I’ve made some pretty outrageous claims, and you is intent on simply proving me uncatechized. You are right. I can’t win against that opinion, nor even break even, But I do like that you made me think, but apparently to no avail in terms of your own possible benefits.

So enjoy your Catholicism as you interpret it. Others on here are at least interested in exchanging ideas and are curious. Your form of belief? Beendar dundat. I don’t like being tied up, or to, or with. God din’t give me a rope (the proper translation for “camel” btw,) to hang myslef with, but to help make a net to catch fish. You got away, but you will grow larger in your faith. All the better to convert mass with, lol!

Nice chatting with you.

A Dios. Vamos a ver.

 

[PRmerger]

Errors?

I am astonished that you would profess to be incapable of being erroneous about Catholic teaching.

It is not possible, in your opinion, that you have misunderstood some aspect of Catholicism?

I will continue to address your posts, Gaber, because the fact is: you are quite capable of professing errors about what Catholicism proclaims.

 

[CMatt25]

I am astonished that you would profess to be incapable of being erroneous about Catholic teaching.

It is not possible, in your opinion, that you have misunderstood some aspect of Catholicism?

I will continue to address your posts, Gaber, because the fact is: you are quite capable of professing errors about what Catholicism proclaims.

Well PR, anyone is capable of that. So now I have to expect from you if you are consistent, that the next time for instance a conservative Catholic on this forum tells another baptized or confirmed Catholic they are not a Catholic, you’ll point out to them their error and discuss with them their improper catechism and address with them what Catholicism actually proclaims.

 

[Gaber]

Well PR, anyone is capable of that. So now I have to expect from you if you are consistent, that the next time for instance a conservative Catholic on this forum tells another baptized or confirmed Catholic they are not a Catholic, you’ll point out to them their error and discuss with them their improper catechism and address with them what Catholicism actually proclaims.

Well, I never professed not to make errors. I professed to have my own view. I even said that " I believe that in terms of conservative Catholicism, I’ve made some pretty outrageous claims." Oh well. Reactivity has its own reward.

 

[Anthony_V]

A true point to be made is that practical application is derived from theology, not the other way around. Theology is a divine science applied to [secular] practicalities, whereas if the process is reversed, theology becomes a secular science of divinity (constricted by the light of human reason).

The Church is the treasury of the Faith. She does not derive her truths or dogmas from the secular world, or even from persons in the Church. Rather, she obtains them from Christ who is the Truth by the Tradition passed down in her, and by the Bible which is written Tradition, and by the charisms present in the episcopal and apostolic offices that the Church possesses as Christ’s body.
While she may support her truths from secular scientific or intellectual sources, doctrine itself is not and cannot be derived from these sources; otherwise, they are mere opinions.

By conclusion, I must say this: the dogmatic theology of the Church is not opinion. In other words, the Church is (or should be) apolitical without overstepping her bounds.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, I never professed not to make errors.

Excellent.

Then you will not be irked when I confirm the above, should you make any more, regarding your misunderstanding of the faith that you left.

To wit: tradition (ala Tevye and Fiddler on the Roof) is absolutely distinct from Sacred Tradition.

And, as I said on a different thread, I doubt that you could provide any apologia, (without consulting Father Google) for any number of Catholic objections.

You were poorly catechized, and I do not blame you for that, as it applies to the abysmal job the Church did in the past. But to the degree that you have not provided your own catechesis, well, you are responsible for that, of course.

 

[Gaber]

Excellent.

Then you will not be irked when I confirm the above, should you make any more, regarding your misunderstanding of the faith that you left.

To wit: tradition (ala Tevye and Fiddler on the Roof) is absolutely distinct from Sacred Tradition.

And, as I said on a different thread, I doubt that you could provide any apologia, (without consulting Father Google) for any number of Catholic objections.

You were poorly catechized, and I do not blame you for that, as it applies to the abysmal job the Church did in the past. But to the degree that you have not provided your own catechesis, well, you are responsible for that, of course.

Thanks again for your adamantine and unwarranted condescension.

I’m not irked, as what you are doing is what I expect from your narrow approach. You are interested in teaching what you think you know and your cup is not just overflowing but gushing with self congratulation. You are interested in pedantry, Madam, not in learning or sharing even. And your capacity is so sealed by your beliefs that you won’t even attempt to penetrate them on your own behalf even within our Church’s teachings, which I have acknowledged as having Truth, but heavily veiled. You take a minor point and press it in a way that disables sharing and makes you seem the authority over God, Meaning, and the experience of others. In short, your demeanor here, whatever it might be in other areas, is an embarrassment imo to the idea of ecumenism.

So while I’ve had wonderful exchanges on here with people I disagree with far more vehemently than I do with you, your manner simply leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You don’t make discussion of points, you only press about your knowledge and the ignorance of others. You, madam are what makes me glad I no longer associate with such as you in the Church and continue my association outside of services with those Catholics who have a mind and a heart. You make me glad that I enter a church only to perform the service of repairing damaged statues. Kind of like what I hope happens to you, You might wish to get a fix on the purpose of your own sacraments, lady, and grow up so you can carry on a two way. Our senior peer counseling program regularly dismisses such as you as candidates because they can’t help anyone due to their fixation on telling, not listening and eliciting movement from the speaker’s own context.

So I wish you luck, and please don’t write me again. And comment on my post in your manner if you like, but please don’t expect to be noticed other than as a gadfly.

Best to you, PR, good luck and God bless.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Gaber, people get tired of your trolling, you know? You seem to have come here mainly to antagonize, and it gets old after a while. So some people lose patience and charity. There are so many threads here on CAF that turn into nothing but a debate between faithful Catholics and those who are either outside the Church completely, or those who are Catholic but dissent with many of the main tenets of our faith. I’m not really sure where you currently place yourself, but you can’t expect to just have total free rein to spread falsehoods all over the forum without being challenged. Do you want to come back, or do you just want to throw rocks at us? No one is keeping you out of the Church but yourself.

 

[Crescentinus]

 

[Gaber]

Gaber, people get tired of your trolling, you know? You seem to have come here mainly to antagonize, and it gets old after a while. So some people lose patience and charity. There are so many threads here on CAF that turn into nothing but a debate between faithful Catholics and those who are either outside the Church completely, or those who are Catholic but dissent with many of the main tenets of our faith. I’m not really sure where you currently place yourself, but you can’t expect to just have total free rein to spread falsehoods all over the forum without being challenged. Do you want to come back, or do you just want to throw rocks at us? No one is keeping you out of the Church but yourself.

I’m only interested in the Rock on which the Church is built, and not the the sand. That is a rock you can’t throw, it just is. As for “trolling” we can see that it is indeed the very conservative element that mostly frequents here. But there are others of the Faith that are on here who have a different understanding of what the Rock is in actuality as distinct from book learning. I like to associate with those folks, and in the case above simply am calling a spade a spade. At least I am honest, and will accept the consequences.

And of course advocating anything other than main line training on here is going to come of to folks like yourself as trolling. That’s what the thread is about. Why we can’t seem to talk. I am not a literalist, I am not an atheist, and I am not snipping at anyone, I am asking questions that are valid for me, and for some others, it would seem. And i am answering questions with content that I wold hoe leads to to other questions but in many cases lead simply to dismissal and attitude. In fact, while what I say seems controversial to many, it is yet within the bounds of some factions of the Church. But while i have experienced and even promoted your position at one time, I grew to be different out of necessity. So I’ve been, so to speak, in both lands, and y’all don’t give credence to the fact that there is another place built on the same rock. That’s all. I have no ax to grind with you or anyone, I’m sating a position as questions or answers, and you make me in your mind what you think me to be. What could be more natural?

Thanks for your comments.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

You’re here, you’re still posting, no one is censoring you. I know a lot of other forums (yes I know it’s “fora” ) where you would have been history long ago. The internet is not necessarily democratic. In fact, this forum itself is the most charitable I have ever seen, when it comes to dissenters and downright trolls! It takes quite a lot for someone who is antagonistic to the Church and Her members to get booted. Faithful Catholic members are held to a higher standard, and many have been banned because they got too involved with someone who had no higher motives than to disrupt and cause chaos. I am not accusing you of that motive, only saying that in the time I’ve been a member here, I’ve seen it happen to several solid Catholic forum members. The mods make their decisions, it’s not up to me.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m only interested in the Rock on which the Church is built, and not the the sand.

This is an interesting comment, Gaber, given that the only way you know that there is such a thing as “the Rock on which the Church built” is because the Catholic Church declared this to be so.

So, each and every time you declare something about God, as proclaimed in the Scriptures, you are giving tacit authority to the Catholic Church.

Something to think about…

 

[LisaA]

Thanks Lisa but I don’t need a discourse about the definition of slavery. I know what slavery is. You are free though to say I am wrong in how I look at issues in a society of many beliefs and I could say the same about you. One problem with the slavery analogy though is you equate abortion with owning a human person. And even if we answer the question of when life begins, we still have that problem of answering and agreeing on when an embryo or fetus becomes a person whose personhood rights surpass those of the woman carrying the embryo or fetus in her body..

A very confusing concept and one that I do not think will hold water. So it’s all a matter of whose rights surpass those of another? How would that work out in society? Do the rights of the parent surpass those of a child? A husband’s rights surpass that of his wife? A boss his employee? In all cases you simply fall back onto “might makes it right” which is neither Christian nor an American concept but smacks of a totalitarian attitude toward the weak and vulnerable.

We may never agree on personhood rights or when the rights of the unborn should trump the woman’s rights under secular law, but we know women and slaves are people.

.

So I conclude you do not think an unborn baby, at whatever stage of gestation, is not a person. When do you become a person? When you can function independently? When you reach the age of reason.

That is the whole question CMatt, is an unborn baby a person and if you don’t think so, why not? Would your same argument hold up if applied to an infant, a disabled person, a person in a coma? WIthout consistency an argument simply becomes a case of relativism.

.
But you are correct Catholics are not the only faith group against choice on this issue. You’ve already explained you left the Methodist faith because they are not. Catholics though sure do spend IMO an inordinate amount of time on it when the time could be spent on other things Christ actually talked about…

Another canard. Christ didn’t speak about abortion because it was not even in the realm of possibilities. In early Israel, the idea one would abort a baby would be anathema. If you’ve read the Bible how many stories exist about men and women who prayed for years, for decades, for a child? Children were precious and wanted and important in Jewish society.

When people bring up “Jesus never said anything about abortion” I just shake my head. As one poster already noted, Jesus did not condone murder. Jesus spoke of love, for God and for one’s neighbor and for oneself. Jesus spoke of the greatest love of all that one would lay down his life for a friend. Somehow this extrapolates to “Jesus never weighed in on abortion.”

Again that is what I believe. We’re going to disagree on it. It reminds me of a United Church of Christ pastor who once told me he used to be a Presbyterian but switched to the UCC because less time and resources are spent on gay issues.

Anyway we’re going around in circles too so like I did with PR, I’ll allow you the last word if you need it. I’ll just say God bless you on your faith journey and peace.

Reminds me of a joke told to me by an Episcopalian priest, “UCC? Does that stand for Unitarians Considering Christ?” One of the most liberal “religions” in existence. Is that your faith tradition CMatt? If so it explains a lot.

I hope you really think about and reconsider your arguments. You have been convinced by the same lies, myths and fabrications that kept me in the dark for many years.

LIsa

 

[CMatt25]

Well, I never professed not to make errors. I professed to have my own view. I even said that " I believe that in terms of conservative Catholicism, I’ve made some pretty outrageous claims." Oh well. Reactivity has its own reward.

Gaber, I understand. You just want to discuss faith and religion and not be labeled a troll because you have a different view. God bless you and peace be with you.

 

[Gaber]

Gaber, I understand. You just want to discuss faith and religion and not be labeled a troll because you have a different view. God bless you and peace be with you.

Amen, and thank you. i’m not interested in changing anyone’s mind, that’s their business, if they want or need to. But the fact is, that there are different understandings of God and relationship, however faithful one might be to what they accept as true. And, thankfully, I seem to have little problem getting along with most, and very much appreciate all the interactions i have on here, even unpleasant ones, as I can learn from them and be blessed.

 

[CMatt25]

Reminds me of a joke told to me by an Episcopalian priest, “UCC? Does that stand for Unitarians Considering Christ?” One of the most liberal “religions” in existence. Is that your faith tradition CMatt? If so it explains a lot.

No it doesn’t. The UCC stands for the United Church of Christ and is a Trinitarian Christian religion without the quotation marks needed. It sometimes amazes me how often Catholics appear not to be respectful of other non Catholic religions or call others trolls.

ucc.org/beliefs/

 

[CMatt25]

Amen, and thank you. i’m not interested in changing anyone’s mind, that’s their business, if they want or need to. But the fact is, that there are different understandings of God and relationship, however faithful one might be to what they accept as true. And, thankfully, I seem to have little problem getting along with most, and very much appreciate all the interactions i have on here, even unpleasant ones, as I can learn from them and be blessed.

Well said. :clapping:

 

[LisaA]

No it doesn’t. The UCC stands for the United Church of Christ and is a Trinitarian Christian religion without the quotation marks needed. It sometimes amazes me how often Catholics appear not to be respectful of other non Catholic religions or call others trolls.

ucc.org/beliefs/

Silly wabbit of course I know what UCC stands for! Perhaps you missed the word “joke” in the sentence.

There are many many versions of UCC. Wasn’t Jeremiah Wright’s church “United Church of Christ” ? You may be familiar with an individual church that is more traditional. Those in my town make the Episcopalians look like fundamentalists. It’s kinda anything goes…

Lisa

 

[Gaber]

You’re here, you’re still posting, no one is censoring you. I know a lot of other forums (yes I know it’s “fora” ) where you would have been history long ago. The internet is not necessarily democratic. In fact, this forum itself is the most charitable I have ever seen, when it comes to dissenters and downright trolls! It takes quite a lot for someone who is antagonistic to the Church and Her members to get booted. Faithful Catholic members are held to a higher standard, and many have been banned because they got too involved with someone who had no higher motives than to disrupt and cause chaos. I am not accusing you of that motive, only saying that in the time I’ve been a member here, I’ve seen it happen to several solid Catholic forum members. The mods make their decisions, it’s not up to me.

I agree. Mostly I feel very welcome here, and that despite some intensity both on my part and that of others. But I try not to mistake intensity for aggression. And you are right again. I’ve had my reprimands, but I find the proctors to be exceedingly fair, and in some cases of things I’ve said, rather tolerant, even surprisingly so.

I’m just happy to be here and hope i don’t get booted for being direct and honest with one member. Maybe I’ll be around “fora” bit, lol!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I agree. Mostly I feel very welcome here, and that despite some intensity both on my part and that of others. But I try not to mistake intensity for aggression. And you are right again. I’ve had my reprimands, but I find the proctors to be exceedingly fair, and in some cases of things I’ve said, rather tolerant, even surprisingly so.

I’m just happy to be here and hope i don’t get booted for being direct and honest with one member. Maybe I’ll be around “fora” bit, lol!

LOL good one!

Hey, I like blunt honesty, I actually prefer a little cantankerousness rather than “smile to your face and stab you in the back” people.

Just don’t be a provoker, OK?