Why are these Fora so overwhelming Conservative

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One problem we have is that we cannot comprehend God in His fullness, so we have to take a point of view toward God, which is going to be an image. Those aspects of God that are important to us, that we believe we as humans “know” about God, are going to create that image. Whether the image resembles ourselves, or something we wish for, something we dread, or something the Church of other Catholics have told us, there is going to be an image because our mind needs that in order to process what’s going on. Even calling God “the Father” conjures an image, because that’s what the name is supposed to do. So does saying “God is merciful,” which can conjure up images for example of Jesus consoling the sorrowful.

But there are many images of God. Each of us was made in the image of God. So if we want to know God, look to a human being in need and if we help them, we have helped Jesus. People say they can’t “see God” in other people like they believe they should. Since people are images of God we each are one. We are the images of God, temples of Christ – every time we do a kind act for another person we’re building that person’s image of a good God. In fact, I challenge you to go beyond looking for God in other people … you should be able to look in the mirror and recognize the likeness to God. If you can’t, then your self-image and/or God-image might enjoy a little tweaking.

Alan
There’s nothing in the above that I disagree with, Alan.

And I challenge you to do this: can you proffer some belief that you have conformed yourself to, despite your own personal objections, because God has declared it to be so?

I will offer my own example: I personally do not have a problem with a Catholic couple wanting to marry but not have children. To me, it makes sense that people who do not like children, but love each other, ought not have children.

However, I willingly submit to God’s revelation
that this couple ought not get married if they are not open to the procreation of children.

While I do not fully understand this teaching, and I wrestle with this, I know that the problem is with ME, and not with the Church. That is, my understanding of the theology of marriage is lacking somehow that I cannot see why it would be fruitless (ha!ha! pun intended!) for this couple to marry.

Quoting Cardinal John Henry Newman: “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, for a man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer.”

I have no doubt that the Catholic answer is correct. I just have to work out the mathematical solution until I can come up with the answer: all Catholic couples who marry must be willing to procreate.

What about you, Alan? Is there some belief that you can say that you have conformed to, despite your own personal beliefs, because God has declared it to be so?
 
I’ve thought about this some more. I’ve actually conceded too much.
A person’s “writings” – whether on CAF or anywhere else – is absolutely not revelation about their spiritual state, or even whether they believe or see or “contemplate” dualistically or not.
Actually one’s words are excellent indicators of spiritual state. Of course a person can attempt to deceive but usually their words give them away. The words give us away because as James 3 tells us, no one can tame the tongue.

And there is no question if someone can think dualistically, because if they couldn’t they wouldn’t know any language so they couldn’t communicate on CAF.

The big question is whether someone can think non-dualistically about things that are commonly thought of dualistically. When one gets to that point, it becomes pretty clear what we’re dealing with. Since we all started out our spiritual journeys with dualism, one who moves past this “sola dualism” stage can see the difference. Funny thing; some who are dualistic-only see the difference in thinking and are intrigued by or even drawn to it. The newness and freshness of such an approach is very compelling to those who are more curious than defensive.

Others insist that nobody can judge them and there are no shortcomings in their point of view, yada, yada. This is like a teenager telling his parents, “but you don’t know what it’s like to be my age.”
Like someone’s style of writing, or writing content, one’s adherence to Catholic doctrine is not some publicly available data allowing strangers to assess where that Catholic is on the spiritual journey – never mind how “open” they are.
The style of writing and content is absolutely an indicator of where somebody is on the spiritual journey, and once we read a person’s words, we are no longer strangers but acquaintences. How accurate an indicator depends on the skill of the person reading, and the honesty level of the posts.

Alan
 
What about you, Alan? Is there some belief that you can say that you have conformed to, despite your own personal beliefs, because God has declared it to be so?
It’s hard for me to go along with your wording of it, because I do not claim to have a “press 1 for English” type connection with God. God “speaks” to me through other people and my circumstances.

I do not “just believe” something because the Church says it’s true. I give the Church freedom to pronounce itself infallible, but I no longer take it to mean her infallible teachings – over which scholars argue about which teachings that would be – are God’s objective truth that transcends belief systems. I do accept the authority of the Church teachings within the Church, as I don’t believe they are binding on anyone except followers of the Church. And they may or may not even be true outside the Church.

Now, I have been enlightened about NFP for example. I was called all sorts of names while trying to figure out why NFP seemed chock with nonsense and contradictions. So eventually I found out that those who had a problem with me had not dug enough into Church teachings that they were the ones wrong. And this has turned out to be a common experience with me. I point out obvious logical flaws and they would defend them and tell me I was disobedient – but when it turned out when some more “thorough” (shall I say "honest) scholars dug further into it, it turned out I was right.

And I find this to be a common experience. I can just tell something isn’t right because it conflicts with known truth or itself, and I get bashed for calling it into question only to later find out that I was right. The Church didn’t teach what the self-described “conservative” posters were claiming. Turns out I wasn’t being stupid or stubborn; they were being shallow and assuming – because they themselves were misled, so since I didn’t agree with their error they attributed error to me.

There is one part about NFP that still bugs me, and that’s the provision that it’s OK to use NFP to avoid having children for reasons of lack of money. It’s an interesting thought, but it still hasn’t quite settled with me that the Church allows us to put price tags on having babies. We aren’t allowed to not want them, but we are allowed to prevent them due to their cost. :confused:

Overall, I do not control my beliefs. Clearly I influence them, feed them, test them, even wish for them to change, but they are what they are. Until they become beliefs, they remain “theories” in my mind. One thing I consider myself strong at is absolutes from assumptions or conditionals. As an engineer who has had to sign off on detailed production drawings of aircraft weapon control computer design, whereby national security could literally be impaired if I’m wrong on details, I’m pretty picky about the conditions and about making no assumptions. For example, the B-52 weapon computer worked for many years and there were hundreds of them in the field, but when they were being qualified on the B-1 program, they failed in the lab. Turns out B-1 equipment had a wider operating temperature range than the B-52, like -70C or something. Whatever it was, it was about 10 degrees colder than the B-52 and that’s all it took for a design quirk to show. Turns out that was just cold enough that the diodes in the power up circuit behaved exponentially instead of the piecewise-linear model that suffices for 99.99% of applications. So yes, I am all about testing things at extremes and knowing when they haven’t been. And if a fact is “absolute truth” then it must have no exceptions at any amount of extreme-ness, or it must carry disclaimers and conditions without which it isn’t “absolutely true.”

So until all doubts are removed, I hold ideas as tentative. People could have died if I had believed in simplified models that don’t work beyond one or two standard deviations from the norm. Even though I would have been using a product that has been working in the field for years. So I redesigned it using an avalanche diode and a resistor, and now it works on the B-1. Honestly it was a stupid design to begin with, using two forward-biased diodes as voltage references. Of course the voltage varies exponentially with absolute temperature, so as it turns out the forward voltage was too low when it was that cold. Will the B-1 ever experience that temperature extreme in actual use? I don’t know, but if it does I can guarantee my equipment will not fail because of it. If I had not tested and redesigned it, and it did fail, there would have been many lawsuits as a bomber isn’t very useful when its weapon computer will not boot up.

I suspect you’re trying to get me to equate teachings of the Church to direct revelation from God. I’m not going to do that, because IMO that would be idolatry. That holds true for any teaching that is not declared ex cathedra.

Alan
 
It’s hard for me to go along with your wording of it, because I do not claim to have a “press 1 for English” type connection with God. God “speaks” to me through other people and my circumstances.
This is a non-sequitur, Alan.

No one here is proclaiming that orthodox Catholics claim to have a “press 1 for English” type connection with God.

I’m just asking you to proffer some sort of teaching that you’ve conformed yourself to because you believe that’s what God said, even if it disagrees with your own personal opinion.

Not sure why that’s a problem for you to proffer. :confused:

Leave the Church and her teachings out of this, if that’s the obstacle for you.

Just think about it and see if you can provide an example of something that you’ve conformed to, out of obedience to what you believe God has told you, despite your own personal ideology.
 
I suspect you’re trying to get me to equate teachings of the Church to direct revelation from God. I’m not going to do that, because IMO that would be idolatry. That holds true for any teaching that is not declared ex cathedra.

Alan
If you really believe this to be so, Alan, then you cannot quote from the Scriptures and claim that they are inspired.

You see why this would be inconsistent with the above paradigm, right?
 
If you really believe this to be so, Alan, then you cannot quote from the Scriptures and claim that they are inspired.

You see why this would be inconsistent with the above paradigm, right?
I don’t know if the scriptures are considered ex cathedra. That’s part of the problem I have with ex cathedra. In my time on CAF and some small amount of time outside of it, I have yet to find a way for us to know – even by looking at it – whether a document is claimed ex cathedra. I’ve seen article where experts debate whether the particular wording a pope used, for example, meets the requirements. Sounds to me like ex cathedra is vague, but that’s the Church’s baby not mine.

And you are right that there is no way to “know” that the scriptures are divinely inspired. That’s an article of faith. I suspect rather strongly they are, because the wisdom they contain is astronomical and so much is so clearly timeless and carries mystery that adapts to changes in civilization, lifestyle, points of view. If it wasn’t divinely inspired then at least it contains a great deal of wisdom beyond anything I would have given humans credit for being able to compile.

I feel like I have a love affair with the New Testament. Sometimes I just let MP3 of it play all day long. Once I played them 24/7 for a few months. It soaks in and changes me, whether I’m paying focused attention to it or not. So my experience with scripture is foremost a love affair. The way I think about the literal meaning of the Bible is more complicated to explain. I think the Church is wise not to officially give interpretations of the literal meanings of most scripture – to do so would reduce their bandwidth and their mystery, and could further distract people from the deeper levels of intimacy.
king you to proffer some sort of teaching that you’ve conformed yourself to because you believe that’s what God said, even if it disagrees with your own personal opinion.

Not sure why that’s a problem for you to proffer. :confused:
It isn’t a problem. Before you asked me if I’ve conformed myself because God told me something. Now you’re asking me if I’ve conformed myself because I believe God told me something. Those are two different questions, as I wasn’t about to make an objective claim that I heard it directly from my infallible connection to the Trinity. 😛

You see how difficult it is to be as anal-retentive as I am? 🤓

So … I believe God speaks to me in many different ways, and I have often changed my beliefs based on new information I received. I find it hard to speak in general terms on this, and I’m not thinking of any specific examples. Generally my policy is to keep my eyes, ears, and other receptors open, try to keep my own will out of the picture, and let God do with me as He pleases. I don’t know how or why; I just know that I do things that I don’t understand (this has been going on all year since my spirit-birth) in coincidence with certain subtle influences I don’t even understand where they come from. It’s almost magical at times, like if I’m deciding whether to do something, I can get a very tiny twitch in a muscle in my arm, leg, face, whatever, exactly when I make the decision. This works only on decisions where there is no right answer – like should I go get a drink now or wait a few minutes. All of a sudden maybe my eyebrow twitches and I begin to stand up, and then realize, “oh, I guess I decided to get up now.” As I get better calibrated to the “real world” following my change, these effects have diminished, and no doubt will be replaced by something even more subtle.

The trick is to completely let go of the will and quit trying to figure out the next step, and if you are silent enough (and this is what contemplation can build up over time) you will be guided in the right path. It’s amazing. I go into places and strike up conversations with people and they love it. Used to be I couldn’t talk to people very well unless they were fellow nerds. People are treating me better than I knew enough to even wish, compared to even a year ago. How can I not love life? I get asked challenging questions to my face, I am completely calm. The fruit of the spirit are so tasty I love them almost all the time. It’s a totally different world. Looks the same as ever to a camera, but not to my eyes. It’s all about not judging, and trusting in the Lord, and keep the great command to Love God, neighbor, and self.
Leave the Church and her teachings out of this, if that’s the obstacle for you.
Just think about it and see if you can provide an example of something that you’ve conformed to, out of obedience to what you believe God has told you, despite your own personal ideology.
OK, well. In an abstract way I feel that as a continuous process which I’ve pretty much relegated to my subconscious, it having been properly trained in obedience to my personally imposed guidelines for constructive use of information. So it goes on so subtly and continuously that Shakespeare doesn’t have the words to describe it. I feel like I’m clay in the Potter’s hands. But clay with feelings and gratitude. Who would want to be kneaded (massaged) by God at any given time? Either that or resting, and God likes that, too.

See? Me and my subconscious have formed an alliance. I let it have its mystery, because if it could explain itself to me then it would cease to exist. But I do give it instructions on what I want done with incoming information and events. I learned to trust it, and it saves me. Just like when I’m driving and my peripheral vision notices something important, my subconscious is on the lookout for those things I’m not focused on at any given moment. When we do contemplative prayer, we are essentially opening ourselves up, subconscious and all, to direct influence the the Spirit.

Ever since Pentecost of 2000, I have been fascinated by and focused on the workings of the Holy Spirit and how to open myself up to His healing and guiding touch. Now that I mention is, guidance and healing are kind of the same, aren’t they? I can see how healing, being healed, and doing good works, all go hand in hand.

I know I haven’t answered your question with a simple example, but I’m afraid a simplistic answer will not convey how I really think/feel – which I believe you are honestly trying to learn rather than judge at this point. I hope what I have offered will give you some insight into where I am coming from, and it will make sense why I don’t give a particular example. Maybe if you still have questions it will give you an idea where to take it. 🙂

Alan
 
There is some serious confusion happening on this thread, regarding three different subjects: Systematics, Moral Theology, and personal Christian/Catholic Spirituality.

Theme 1:
A discussion of “the image of God” belongs to a branch of Catholic theology called Systematics. Any system is useful for creating working definitions by which people can converse, for describing the interrelationships of concepts and terms within that system, etc. The Roman Catholic Church has never declared either the terms or the dynamics within Systematic Theology to be the means of “knowing God” of understanding God, of “understanding” Scripture, or of understanding Tradition with a capital T. She didn’t do so during ancient Christianity, during the 21st century, or at any point in her history, no matter how “conservative” she was believed or interpreted to be.

Paragraph 237 from the Catechism of the Catholic Church re-asserts what not only she has always known, but what the ancients knew, in ways they searched & labored to describe the reality of God:
The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the “mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God”.58 To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel’s faith before the Incarnation of God’s Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit.
What does anyone not understand about how the Roman Church has never tried to contain, limit, or define in finite terms an infinite God? Anyone who asserts this, or believes he or she has come to some original epiphany about how God cannot be analyzed, is seriously, seriously poorly read in the various branches of theology, including any branch he or she privately believes is “new,” unique, or invented by the same self.

It wasn’t just the earliest Christian mystics who were aware of this, but our Hebrew/Jewish brothers and sisters, who expressed poetically in the Psalms how Unfathomable and Unknowable God is, and how the realistic and truthful response to Him is one of Awe, surrender, and non-analysis.

Nevertheless, within the absolute statement that God is ultimately unknowable within the limitations of human experience, certain fixed definitions & principles are asserted so that the Catholic faithful can converse.

Theme 2:
Moral Theology is not Systematic Theology. Different branch. As with Systematics, moral theology depends on certain fixed principles in order to be a workable, unified system which has practical value for each person. Again, the ancients understood this as well: Hence, the Torah. Unlike some people on this thread, they had no problem distinguishing the finite and knowable nature of moral precepts from the unknowable mysteries of God’s plan for them, God’s “ways,” and God’s profound intimacy with them, individually and as a people. One mode of Knowing did not diminish or alter the other mode. They were able to keep both in balance, even without analyzing “why.” What they did understand was that moral behavior was the pathway into what we would call “the divine life,” or, union with God. While they expressed that union in prayer (Psalms, temple prayers, etc.) and in worship, they were keenly aware that there was no such thing as union with God without following his precepts (moral law). Jesus also understood that and proclaimed that, repeatedly.

There was no such thing as private, personal insight diminishing the community moral law, no matter what form such private insight took. Righteousness (tsedeq) was achieved by conformity with God’s law, and that conformity was indispensable to knowing Him and loving Him. The Roman Church embraces what Jesus Himself embraced in the incorporation of Righteous (morally faithful) living as the first and most essential means and sign that one is in fact living in union with God. And righteous living, then as now, was understood within a community context, not a ‘private’ context with independent laws “discovered” or known only to that individual.

Theme 3:
Prayer obviously belongs to a branch of theology called Spirituality. As with Systematics, the Roman Church has never tried to “contain” or limit the prayer life of any individual, and anyone who believes so is shamefully poorly read. The Church has described forms of prayer – again, so that common language about it can be understood, and especially so that we pilgrims can grow in our prayer journeys. No one on this thread has discovered or invented some prayer form that the Church was not previously aware of, taught, published about, and encouraged. How can I say that? Because the Church would be the first to acknowledge that she has no control, nor wishes to have any control, over the individual’s life of prayer. The Church wants to liberate us to pray as the Holy Spirit calls us to. She has never tried to intrude into the inviolable space between the individual and God. She has, however, warned against certain false spiritual journeys, mostly having to do with New Age deceptions and confusions which tend to distract the individual from his or her relationship with the Trinity, especially the Second Person of that Trinity. Other than that, the Church embraces contemplation, including but not limited to that modeled by the saints and mystics, including formulaic prayer, & more. If you think you’ve invented something, then you haven’t read enough.

The Church also embraces, teaches, and encourages lectio divina. Warning: lectio divina is not ‘private interpretation of Scripture.’ Lectio divina is praying the Scriptures. It may – often does—provide insight into those Scriptures, but if it is genuine, the fruits of lectio divina do not contradict the moral teachings of the Church.
 
The Roman Church embraces what Jesus Himself embraced in the incorporation of Righteous (morally faithful) living as the first and most essential means and sign that one is in fact living in union with God. And righteous living, then as now, was understood within a community context, not a ‘private’ context with independent laws “discovered” or known only to that individual.
I’m not sure why you say that “Righteous (morally faithful) living is the first and most essential means and sign that one is in fact living in union with God.”

Does scripture not state that it is possible to do righteous deeds but not have love – and therefore be nothing? What about the tax collector and the pharisee in Luke 18 – which one was righteous, and which one was closer to God? (Hint: neither one was both)
The Church also embraces, teaches, and encourages lectio divina. Warning: lectio divina is not ‘private interpretation of Scripture.’ Lectio divina is praying the Scriptures. It may – often does—provide insight into those Scriptures, but if it is genuine, the fruits of lectio divina do not contradict the moral teachings of the Church.
👍

Alan
 
I’m not sure why you say that “Righteous (morally faithful) living is the first and most essential means and sign that one is in fact living in union with God.”

Does scripture not state that it is possible to do righteous deeds but not have love – and therefore be nothing? What about the tax collector and the pharisee in Luke 18 – which one was righteous, and which one was closer to God? (Hint: neither one was both)

👍

Alan
Are deeds done without Love/Charity considered righteous? If someone performs an act of service out of desire to be noticed or pride or self satisfaction then the motives are not out of love. OTOH Jesus did say “feed my lambs” so I am certainly a believer that we are all known by our actions. What we cannot KNOW is another’s heart and motivation.

Lisa
 
All Catholics, whether they view themselves as liberal or conservative, must remember that they are followers of the teachings of Christ, handed down through the Church. What is most important is that every Catholic maintains unity with his or her bishop, and thus with the Church as a whole. In the words of St. Ignatius of Antioch:

“See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the father…Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop…Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be…” -Epistle to the Smyrnaeans (newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm)

As Catholics, we must respect and honor the decrees of our local bishops. While we may all hold different political views, our first and foremost beliefs are those handed down to us by our fathers through the Church. If these beliefs do not come first, we cannot rightly call ourselves “Catholics.”
 
I’m not sure why you say that “Righteous (morally faithful) living is the first and most essential means and sign that one is in fact living in union with God.”
I say it because Scripture says it, and because Jesus says it.
Does scripture not state that it is possible to do righteous deeds but not have love
Possible, yes. But it is not possible to be “loving” in one’s own private definition of “love,” (a favorite theme on CAF), while violating other Commandments, including those of sexual behavior, ethical behavior, reverence due to God, etc. Otherwise, such “love” is as empty as the reverse.

Please be very clear that Jesus did not endorse love without the rest of the moral law.

The scriptural facts are, for those who understand Jesus’ Jewish worldview, was that the core of Torah was essential to a loving relationship with God (including receiving the full fruits of God’s love). Torah was a “fence” (literally) around our personal behavior: our relationships with others, our homage to God, our sexual behavior. The problems were four, during the First Century: the Pharisees, intending to monitor that fence in all sincerity, were concentrating on the outer and ignoring the inner. The Torah included the inner, and Jesus came to remind us of the inclusion, not the substitution. Problem 2 was that the Pharisees were disproportionately emphasizing minor (as opposed to core) regulations. Problem 3 was that they had become technocrats in the monitoring of those regulations. Problem 4 was that they viewed the dynamic as going from outer to inner; Jesus returned the dynamic to where it had always been: Going from the Inner to the Outer.

Complicating the Pharisaical emphasis on this dynamic was the political situation which the Pharisees found themselves in vs. the priestly class. The Pharisess were trying to maintain their position through the litmus taste of outer compliance. They were not evil; it’s just that their emphasis & the extremities that resulted from that (such as added interpretations to sabbath & dietary laws) resulted in a mis-application of the Law in certain aspects of Jewish law (but not all, nor in the majority).

***Jesus never once declared the Outer to be unimportant or less important than the Inner. *** He declared the starting point of homage to God, love of neighbor, and control over personal behavior, to be the Inner, and the Outer to be the sign of what the Inner was and was not. Anyone who doesn’t understand that fails to understand the entire Gospels.

Again, law is authenticated within community. That is even true for civil/common law, by the way. And the Church does not endorse private revelation as an authentic source of moral truth. All of the mystical experiences in the world have no effect on the moral axis.
 
Are deeds done without Love/Charity considered righteous? If someone performs an act of service out of desire to be noticed or pride or self satisfaction then the motives are not out of love. OTOH Jesus did say “feed my lambs” so I am certainly a believer that we are all known by our actions. What we cannot KNOW is another’s heart and motivation.

Lisa
I think you understood me. We can measure “righteous” deeds from the outside, as long as the term “righteous” excludes any assumption of internals.

If we are to classify a deed as righteous based on internals, then we cannot objectively say that any particular act we witnessed, was in fact, righteous. Usually when I see “righteous” I think of it as external behavior, but that’s me. So I echo your question about whether “righteous” depends on internals. 👍

Alan
 
I say it because Scripture says it, and because Jesus says it.
Please show me. I don’t know what scriptures you are referring to. 😊
Please be very clear that Jesus did not endorse love without the rest of the moral law.
Right. But He did call them the “weightier” parts of the law, and he often championed those who showed love, humility, and mercy, over those who showed morality.

So no, He doesn’t dispense with morality, but he considers love as “weightier.”

Plus, Jesus put love above faith (which implies works) and hope. So yeah, we don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
The scriptural facts are, for those who understand Jesus’ Jewish worldview, was that the core of Torah was essential to a loving relationship with God (including receiving the full fruits of God’s love). Torah was a “fence” (literally) around our personal behavior: our relationships with others, our homage to God, our sexual behavior. The problems were four, during the First Century: the Pharisees, intending to monitor that fence in all sincerity, were concentrating on the outer and ignoring the inner. The Torah included the inner, and Jesus came to remind us of the inclusion, not the substitution. Problem 2 was that the Pharisees were disproportionately emphasizing minor (as opposed to core) regulations. Problem 3 was that they had become technocrats in the monitoring of those regulations. Problem 4 was that they viewed the dynamic as going from outer to inner; Jesus returned the dynamic to where it had always been: Going from the Inner to the Outer.
I really like this paragraph. I like the way you’ve described the problems, and isolated the outer/inner dichotomy. 👍
Jesus never once declared the Outer to be unimportant or less important than the Inner.
Then please help me understand what Jesus meant in Matt 23:23 by “the weightier things of the law.” Was he not talking internals being more fundamental than externals?

He declared the starting point of homage to God, love of neighbor, and control over personal behavior, to be the Inner, and the Outer to be the sign of what the Inner was and was not. Anyone who doesn’t understand that fails to understand the entire Gospels.

So Jesus says that we can judge the interior by external appearances? Is that what you just wrote? If that’s what the gospels mean then I must not understand them at all. :confused:

Hmmm… the inner is “what it’s about,” the outer is a sign of the inner. So a sign is just as important as that to which the sign points?
All of the mystical experiences in the world have no effect on the moral axis.
If that’s true than so is the reverse. 😉

Alan
 
I don’t know if the scriptures are considered ex cathedra. That’s part of the problem I have with ex cathedra.
I asked how you know that the Scriptures are inspired. You know, God-breathed, if you believe this paradigm:
I suspect you’re trying to get me to equate teachings of the Church to direct revelation from God.
Everything that’s proclaimed in Scripture comes from the Church. And if you can’t acknowledge that this is direct revelation from God, through the Church, then you can’t quote the Scriptures as being inspired.

So how do you reconcile holding the above paradigm while also quoting Scriptures as theopneustos?
 
And you are right that there is no way to “know” that the scriptures are divinely inspired. That’s an article of faith
'zactly! :extrahappy:

And that prompts the question: faith in what?

The only answer that you can give is: faith in…

wait for it…

wait for it…

😃

THE CHURCH!

(Or, I wouldn’t have a problem with your saying that you have faith in God, through the Church. But either way you can’t factor out that **you are entrusting yourself to the Church **when you believe the Scriptures to be inspired.)
 
I asked how you know that the Scriptures are inspired. You know, God-breathed, if you believe this paradigm:

Everything that’s proclaimed in Scripture comes from the Church. And if you can’t acknowledge that this is direct revelation from God, through the Church, then you can’t quote the Scriptures as being inspired.

So how do you reconcile holding the above paradigm while also quoting Scriptures as theopneustos?
I believe the people writing the scripture were inspired. I do not believe it is dictation from God, but was subject to the authors converting the inspiration into words according to their own culture and experience.

But as far as scriptures being direct revelation from God, I have many thoughts on it but no firm conclusion I’ll admit to. To me, the transformational aspects of the Bible are what have saved me, so honestly I don’t care where it came from, in terms of its importance to me. That said, I don’t have to resolve my deep rooted doubt, to quote the scripture. If I’m trying to make a point by quoting them, then I accept that the authority the person I’m talking to gives the quote will determine whether I get my message across. I see it as a matter of tuning into my audience. When I see what someone believes and how they think, I try to answer in a way compatible. If they were Buddhist I might quote Buddha instead of Jesus. I don’t have to believe in Buddha to do that.

So since I have such a problem with absolutes, I have come up with a system of thinking that does not depend on whether I have faith, doubt, or whatever. I still can squeeze the juice out of scripture and drink it, and it will still nourish me. That’s what I’ve found. Taste and see the goodness of the Lord. If I’m not the happiest person on earth, I’d like to meet whoever is.

Alan
 
'zactly! :extrahappy:

And that prompts the question: faith in what?

The only answer that you can give is: faith in…

wait for it…

wait for it…

😃

THE CHURCH!

(Or, I wouldn’t have a problem with your saying that you have faith in God, through the Church. But either way you can’t factor out that **you are entrusting yourself to the Church **when you believe the Scriptures to be inspired.)
I’d say the Church has been instrumental in my healing, and finding faith. But I have a faith in God that’s beyond where the Church alone got me. So yes, I could say I have found faith through the Church, but I also found faith through many other channels. Should I trust the Church? If it had been left up the Church, I would not have been to Mass since my wild years which ended in 1985 when a TV preacher – not the RCC – called me back to Jesus and showed me for the first time why I should even crack open a Bible. So in my case the Church did not come find the lost sheep, the non-denominationals and the Protestants and even an atheist helped convince me to give God a chance, and go back to the Church. To me there is a difference between Jesus and the Church He founded. And I refuse to engage in idolatry.

If you want to stay within the safety of the walls of the Church, that’s fine with me. I don’t mind doing what it takes, though, to achieve The Impossible Dream even if I have to take a step or two outside from time to time. Don Quixote has nothing on me. 😃

Alan
 
To me there is a difference between Jesus and the Church He founded. And I refuse to engage in idolatry.
The Catholic Church does not worship itself. It worships only the one true Trinitarian God, and enjoins its members to do only the same. That would include prohibitions against attachment to private views which conflict with Sacred Tradition - a Tradition which includes the teachings of Jesus properly understood with the help of authentic interpretation, from scholars who understand anthropological context, polemics, and more. Attachment to such conflicting private views is also a form of idolatry. Again, a way of understanding, idiosyncratic to that individual, and language or images, etc., understood uniquely by that individual, is to be expected. Our understandings are filtered and reshaped by our personalities.
If you want to stay within the safety of the walls of the Church, that’s fine with me. I don’t mind doing what it takes, though, to achieve The Impossible Dream
Again with the false dichotomies. Jesus stayed faithful to the comprehensive authentic code of the moral law, yet was hardly “within safety walls.” He restated the causality between Truth and Freedom. And Truth, which he incarnated, is never apart from morality.

As to “the Church not bringing you back” (but fundamentalist preachers doing so), the preachers were the instruments of the Holy Spirit. God brought you back, Alan. God.

Be careful of worshipping false gods.
 
As to “the Church not bringing you back” (but fundamentalist preachers doing so), the preachers were the instruments of the Holy Spirit. God brought you back, Alan. God.

Be careful of worshipping false gods.
👍👍
 
Actually one’s words are excellent indicators of spiritual state. …The style of writing and content is absolutely an indicator of where somebody is on the spiritual journey, and once we read a person’s words, we are no longer strangers but acquaintences.
False, because if the writer is communicating information or belief about concepts which have discrete categories, and is being precise about that, it does not give the reader necessarily any helpful information whatsoever about where the writer is on the **spiritual **journey – not dogmatics, not morality, not doctrine.

The spiritual journey is ultimately a private one. You don’t have access to mine; nor can you make assumptions about mine, nor I, yours. You and I can make deductions regarding what each other believes, adheres to, disagrees about, given the literal words and the way those words are arranged, but the private relationship to God is not your privilege to assume about me, about PRmerger, about TheRealJulianne, about LisaA.

The style of writing, and the words chosen, are (or should be!) reflective of the subject matter. Again, moral theology is a system of itself; it is not Catholic spirituality. I neither talk about moral theology in the same way I talk about spirituality, nor do I experience and receive them in the same way.
 
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