Why are traditionalist forums so appalling?

[PadraigPearce]

I sometimes look at Angelqueen forum, and another one called Fisheaters, and I’ve learned some interesting info there about church history, liturgy etc. There seem to be some genuinely friendly people on those forums, but I’ve decided I can’t look at them anymore because a lot of people on them are downright mean and nasty. There’s blatant anti semitism, derogatory comments about people who go to the ordinary form of the mass and horrible comments about Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI. I’ve been to an FSSP parish and found the people there quite lovely and welcoming, so why do trad forums seem to attract such a nasty caliber of people? I guess it’s just like any other internet forum, where you get some nutjobs, but it seems a lot more common on trad forums, with the exception of this one.

 

[Filioque]

From my experience, the label “Traditionalist” is applied to a wide varitey of people. I know a few people who attend Charismatic Prayer meetings, and Bible Studies, but prefer to attend the EF, and conduct themselves in the same manner as other EF attendees (Veil, skirt below the knee for the wife, and suit and tie for the husband) they don’t raise their hands or in any way do what they do at Charismatic Prayer meetings. They just feel more at home liturgically at the EF.

I also know people who at the other extreme are charged up with conspiracy theories, deny the Papacy of every Pope since Pope Pius XII, and have a very distorted understanding of the teachings and history of the Church. Some attend the EF at Churches that are in communion with the local ordinary, others at SSPX, and Independent Chapels. We can’t forget the followers of Gibson’s father, the Home Aloners who distrust just about everyone, and refuse to go to Mass.

While we can find the same type of people on the other extreme, advocating for the ordination of women and transexuals, stating that Catholics should be allowed to procure an abortion, and Sexual freedom, (heterosexual, homosexual and everything inbetween) should be every Catholic’s right. All claim to be faithful Catholics, even when the credibility of their position is not rational. All deserve our prayers as our Lord prayed, Ut unum sint. (That they all may be one) As well as our own prayers that we ourselves persevere in the Faith, and remain faithful to Christ and the Church He founded.

 

[Tradycja]

It comes down to the fact that you need to know how to navigate the waters. You have to know how to sift through things.

 

[Jacafamala]

This is because we’re all sinners. Even trads are sinners.

 

[peary1]

I sometimes look at Angelqueen forum, and another one called Fisheaters, and I’ve learned some interesting info there about church history, liturgy etc. There seem to be some genuinely friendly people on those forums, but I’ve decided I can’t look at them anymore because a lot of people on them are downright mean and nasty. There’s blatant anti semitism, derogatory comments about people who go to the ordinary form of the mass and horrible comments about Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI. I’ve been to an FSSP parish and found the people there quite lovely and welcoming, so why do trad forums seem to attract such a nasty caliber of people? I guess it’s just like any other internet forum, where you get some nutjobs, but it seems a lot more common on trad forums, with the exception of this one.

It’s there personality. It comes out in their posts. Half of them don’t attend any Mass, so I have found out. What does THAT tell you?

 

[seagal]

…derogatory comments about people who go to the ordinary form of the mass and horrible comments about Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI.

I’ve seen similar attitudes on this forum, in fact usually I make it a point not to read the Traditional Catolicism forum. There seems to be an elitist attitude, especially in the way some people insist on using Latin wherever possible, as if Traditional Catholic was an exclusive club and you have to know the language to qualify for membership. I’ve heard some traditionalists say that nothing good has come out of Rome since the Vatican II debacle. Myself, I’m in the middle. I deplore the “new age-ness” that is creeping into some parishes. But I also can’t stand the attitude that inclusive language is wrong. One poster here was scandalized because the priest said “sisters and brothers” during mass instead of “brothers and sisters”. I mean, seriously!?

Sorry for the rant, this has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time.

 

[Secret_Square]

I too am sort of “traddie”, in that I think there should be more Latin in the Mass, the EF Mass should be made as widely available as possible, and a lot of the liturgical “experiments” that occurred after Vatican II did far more harm than good. Mass is meant to be focused on God, not ourselves.

However, I also don’t think it’s necessarily an indication of great piety or virtue to be excessively picky about what Mass you attend, what music is sung, what the church looks like, which way the priest faces, Communion in the hand vs. on the tongue, whether girl servers are present, etc.

Obvious abuses or practices forbidden by Church law (e.g. invalid matter in the bread/Host, changing the words of the Eucharistic Prayer, a homily contrary to Church teaching) must be pointed out and stopped. But if an NO Mass is celebrated reverently by a priest in good standing with the Church, and nothing contrary to Church law is done, I’m probably not going to complain about it. I’m just glad I can be there and receive Jesus.

The main thing is that Christ is present in the Eucharist; everything else is secondary (not unimportant or trivial, mind you, but secondary).

 

[seagal]

Your attitude seems reasonable to me. Just out of curiosity though, **why **should there be more Latin? What purpose does it serve, except to alienate those who don’t understand it? And I’m not sure what EF means.

 

[Hotchkiss]

I sometimes look at Angelqueen forum, and another one called Fisheaters, and I’ve learned some interesting info there about church history, liturgy etc. There seem to be some genuinely friendly people on those forums, but I’ve decided I can’t look at them anymore because a lot of people on them are downright mean and nasty. There’s blatant anti semitism, derogatory comments about people who go to the ordinary form of the mass and horrible comments about Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI. I’ve been to an FSSP parish and found the people there quite lovely and welcoming, so why do trad forums seem to attract such a nasty caliber of people? I guess it’s just like any other internet forum, where you get some nutjobs, but it seems a lot more common on trad forums, with the exception of this one.

I think it’s largely because those that are actually Catholic (some “traditionalists” from those sites hold clearly heretical views) are rather fundamental rather than traditional in their beliefs. Fundamentalism of all kinds seems to intrinsically draw the sorts of stultified reductionist-thinkers you describe. Because it’s easy…

I think others realize like you do just how off-base some of these people are so they treat them with contempt. That in turn hardens the traditionalists even more and it becomes a vicious cycle.

Keep in mind the number of these people is microscopic in the Church and they ain’t gonna grow to a size that would suggest real power.

 

[PadraigPearce]

This is because we’re all sinners. Even trads are sinners.

That’s true, but there’s a special sort of nastiness I’ve seen on these particular forums that’s pretty shocking, and they seem to be the main trad forums on the internet. I know it’s not reflective of traditionalists in general, but it’s more than a couple of people. Are there any other trad forums that are a bit more civil than the two I mentioned?

 

[Filioque]

As a convert from Judaism, I think that the retaining and learning of a Liturgical Language is a source of unity in a relgion.

I was raised Sephardic, our customs are derived from our origins in Spain, and differ from Polish, Russian and German Jews. As do the customs of the Morrocan Jews and other Jews from different parts of the world. Even with the differences in custom, and the way we pronounce hebrew, we can all join in worship in any of the liturgical styles among Jews because we all share Hebrew. Sure to a Sephardi, hearing hebrew in the manner an Eastern European Jew pronounces it is like someone from Maine listening to someone from Alabama, but we can still understand the service. I may not have been able to speek German, or Russian or other Eastern European languages after the services I attended in other synagoges when I travelled in my youth, but I could understand and participate in the services because of a liturgical language. (BTW the hebrew of the Bible and Synagogue services like Litrgican Latin, is not modern hebrew.)

Any of the Liturgical Languages in the Catholic Church, be it Latin, Patristic Greek, Slavonic etc serve to unify the faithful. While not essential, they serve a purpose.

While not liturgical, the official documents that are promulgated by the Vatican in Latin and sent out to all different language groups, help to ensure that eveyone gets the same message, and (hopefully) competent translators translate the documents into the language of the people in the local area.

 

[malachi3]

Angelqueen posters are always angry, but I get angry at some V2 masses I’ve attended, and I think it is a righteous anger, at the destruction of a beautiful liturgy, etc. Some of their members relish ridiculing women and that scares me. I always learn something on AQ - like suggestions for reading, or prayers. Traditional prayers, like in the pre V2 missals, are sublime in comparison to today’s. imho

 

[prodigalson12]

Well, look through how the pharisee were behaving, how Christ denounced them and their ways. Sure, they were as traditional as it gets, they crossed every t, dotted every i, they were just absolutely perfect with their rituals, but they completely missed the spirit of it all, for it’s easy to follow a cookie cutter system rather then getting real and avoiding legalism.

I face tremendous scrutiny and will continue to do so since I’d rather follow the spirit, rather then just the law, and this is the defining difference Christ taught, this is precisely why he simplified the law within the new covenant.

 

[corsair]

I think that the Forum thing gives some folks a “courage” that they would not normally possess. And anyone with an excess of “courage” can get a bit overwhelming.

Was I PC enough for all?

Some people would not classify that as “courage” which is why I put it in quotes.

All Forums have one thing in common; they have their “whacko’s”. Lots of angry folks out there.

Cheers

 

[malachi3]

Well, look through how the pharisee were behaving, how Christ denounced them and their ways. Sure, they were as traditional as it gets, they crossed every t, dotted every i, they were just absolutely perfect with their rituals, but they completely missed the spirit of it all, for it’s easy to follow a cookie cutter system rather then getting real and avoiding legalism.

I face tremendous scrutiny and will continue to do so since I’d rather follow the spirit, rather then just the law, and this is the defining difference Christ taught, this is precisely why he simplified the law within the new covenant.

I can’t keep the spirit when I’m distracted by donuts being sold in the vestibule, or even by bad singing - I’m trying to worship Almighty God.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I can’t speak for those other forums. I’ve been a member of CAF for over five years.

I can only speak for myself. I am 58 years old and I grew up within HMC before Vatican II. I was an altar boy. What gets lost today is that when the changes started around 1967, most people were simply appalled. What gets lost today is that none of us…not me, not my parents, aunts, uncles, etc. would ever dream of defying the Magesterium of HMC. Rome spoke and we obeyed - which is a concept which is alien to today.

I firmly believe that there are any number of people of my generation and my parent’s generation (still alive) who were not happy with what happened in 67. (Yeah, I am more than aware that the OF was installed on the first Sunday of Advent in 69. Been there, done that). It was formalized then. The changes started two years earlier.

I was the senior altar boy for my parish when the archbishop consecrated our new church in 1967. I saw my parents marginalized in the years following. When the 10 Mass whipped out the guitars and the “hippie” music in the early 70s, they started going to the 8 Mass. When the 8 Mass unplugged the “state of the art” electronic organ in the mid 70s; they went to the 4:30 vigil Mass on Saturday.

I saw my parents and our neighbors reduced to second class citizens. I can understand some of the resentment coming from my parent’s generation.

I wasn’t happy to have to sing Simon and Garfunkel’s Bridge over Troubled Waters and Sounds of Silence at my Catholic high school’s graduation Mass in 1969. If you had not been there, you would not have understood just how appalling that was - particularly since I sang in the choir for the class of 1968’s graduation and it was Latin and traditional hymns.

I do not understand my fellow traditionalists who came to understand what we have lost in the last 40 years. I grew up before Vatican II. I am not dead yet and I profoundly miss that which I grew up with. I am not about to challenge the Magesterium and haven’t for these last 40 years.

I don’t think y’all have any idea of how absolutely “gut wrenching” Vatican II was. Just for the record, I do not attend an EF parish. My last EF (and I do not like that word, for me it is the TLM) was in 1975.

I try very hard not to be bitter or snappish but I remember what HMC was like before.

The one thing that drives me crazy is the myth that we did not know what the Latin meant. I could attend a TLM today and I would know precisely what the Latin meant. We had Missals back then - Latin on one side; English on the other. Altar boys had cheat sheets…Latin on one side; English on the other. OOOOOOOHHHHH Latin is so hard…Do a little research y’all and see how many Latin words were adopted into the English language during the Renaissance. Hey, that was one of the brother’s big "to do’ s way back when. I laugh at Bill O’Reilly’s pitiful excuses at word power. From 8th to 12th grade way back when we had to conjugate, give the origin (can we say Latin), and give the definition of the word. Shakespeare used an awful lot of words derived from the Latin.

 

[prodigalson12]

I can’t keep the spirit when I’m distracted by donuts being sold in the vestibule, or even by bad singing - I’m trying to worship Almighty God.

Then you might want to join a convent/monostary, so you aren’t so distracted. My voice is horrible, and only recently have I started to sing in mass, so please excuse those of us with bad singing voices, I more then make up for it with my guitar, but they don’t let me bring that one in.

I have complained about people not showing reverence before and after mass, I wonder how many of them claim to be traditional? It’s not about them any more, it used to be, but not any more, which is why I now pop in to church when nobody is there to pray in silence. The thing is, we have these new things in place, such as donuts, because people do not fellowship as they used to with the early church, something has to get people to stick around long enough to mingle, and this is an area the protestants have over us, they stick around and talk to each other after service, which is a good thing to do, they also have extensive bible studies with a lot of them as well right after service, and again, it’s something we lack…

Too often we complain about these changes, or add on’s, but if you look at the reasoning in full, you’ll see it’s for the greater good, even though it distracts many of us, they are necessary.

 

[malachi3]

I agree with you about fellowship, but the donut sale should be after mass, not during.

 

[prodigalson12]

I agree with you about fellowship, but the donut sale should be after mass, not during.

Take it up with your parish priest, people should be at mass, in mass while it’s going on, if what you are telling me is true, people are buying and eating food instead of being in mass? That’s a mortal sin that should be addressed, and it’s up to parishoners to bring these issues to the local table, not the international.

 

[JustaServant]

I agree with you about fellowship, but the donut sale should be after mass, not during.

In our town the Parish hall is across the street for those who want to fellowship. When we enter into the presence of God, we are to do so with reverance. Not like we are knocking on Uncle Billy’s back porch.
Besides, there is to be a period (an hour?) of fasting before recieving the Eucharist.
If I walked into a ‘catholic’ church with donuts in the back, I would exit immediately.
Even the Baptist churches I was once a part of would have been appalled at that.