Why are WE here?

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wanstronian said:
Thoughts? Well, my thoughts are that this kind of mealy-mouthed excuse-making on the part of your god, is an utter logical failure.
Unnecessary invective which makes an unjustified assertion.
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Furher unnecessary invective which makes further unjustified assertions.
It’s a way - the only way - of reconciling the fact of human suffering with the obviously contradictory concept of a kind, loving and omnipotent god.
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Demonstrate the truth of your assertion.
It fails horribly, and is merely indicative of the lengths that theists will go to to sustain and justify their belief in a god which, if it really does exist, is at best disinterested in its creation.
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An argumentum ad hominem which infringes Forum Conduct Rules 4, 5 and 6.
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tonyrey said:
At least it’s better than your lack of explanation of why you have anything whatsoever!!! You can make fun of people’s belief in God but can you make fun of your own failure to make any** positive **contribution to this discussion?
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Why do you always get so hostile to anybody who doesn’t share your opinion?

Sorry, if I just can’t accept that a God who created the Universe and life that is so complex made us humans just to have some company or make new friends. I’m not making fun of anybody. I just think this explanation sounds extremely naive.

Just because I can’t answer why we are here, I don’t have to accept any far-fetched explanation. I simply don’t know what the meaning of life is but at least I don’t pretend to know.
I have no problem of making fun of me not knowing what the meaning of life is. I do it all the time.
 
According to the Catechism of the Church.
We are here because on Earth in order to know and to love God, to do good according to his will, and go to Heaven one day.
 
tonyrey said:
So you reject the moral teaching of Jesus, the reality of good and evil, the adverse effects of previous generations on humanity and the concepts of Karma and Nemesis?
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Well, since I’m not convinced that the teachings of Jesus(who I think maybe never existed) are actually his teachings but rather teachings written by numerous unknown people, I can’t answer with yes or no.
I believe in the interpretation of good and evil values that are man-made and can easily shift(in extreme situations like wars) but don’t I don’t believe in an objective moral code.
I do feel that there is a form of Karma but it’s just a gut feeling. I would feel if I laughed at someone who is terminally ill(just an example) or harm a child(another example) it might come back to me in a negative way but I’m not convinced it’s a fact. It’s just a feeling.
 
wanstronian said:
I appreciate your sentiment…
… but I’m interested in knowledge, not speculation.The things that you claim about your God here, are the same things that people from other religions claim about theirs. In other words, they do not amount to knowledge, they amount to faith. It’s not the same thing. And given that there are other faiths and they can’t all be right, there’s no good reason to suppose that yours is. In fact, there’s no good reason, from a rational point of view, to suppose that *any *of them are right. If your belief gives you comfort, then false though that comfort might be, I do not begrudge it to you.
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My friend, I believe the challenging concept here is that you want to know that which is of faith. You are correct in that no matter what I present, it will only be a personal concept, but that is only because you are wanting the knowledge to understand concepts of faith and unfortunately, I can only offer wisdom. Will you please consider the following points:
-Since you want knowledge, recognize that in order to accept what happened first, you must have faith.
-Since you want knowledge, recognize that no matter how one calculates what happened first, it can always be summed up by: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the same was in the beginning with God.
-Since you want knowledge, recognize that no matter how intellectuals calculate how to achieve peace, happiness, and energy as a society and/or individual, there solutions will always fall under Jesus’ statement and demonstration of: Always being and spreading the means to being perfectly patient, kind, and motivated with all your body and with all your spirit and with all your thoughts and with all your will towards others and yourself, so that society and you may experience unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, and unstoppable energy.
Therefore, since you have to have faith, why not have faith in Jesus Christ, whose wisdom is far greater than all the knowledge of the intellectual beings of the world?
wanstronian said:
Thoughts? Well, my thoughts are that this kind of mealy-mouthed excuse-making on the part of your god, is an utter logical failure.
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Please help me see where the logic fails, so I can be more fitting to reality.
wanstronian said:
It’s invention of the most frivolous kind. You make up a scenario, that for some reason some people have to suffer in order to get into heaven. What’s your justification for this scenario? None whatsoever, it’s just speculation. It’s a way - the only way - of reconciling the fact of human suffering with the obviously contradictory concept of a kind, loving and omnipotent god. It fails horribly, and is merely indicative of the lengths that theists will go to to sustain and justify their belief in a god which, if it really does exist, is at best disinterested in its creation.
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I would like to share a few more understandings/justifications based on your “truths”, but before I do, please consider the following: Since you are recognizing this may be the only way to reconciling the fact of human suffering with the obviously contradictory concept of a kind, loving and omnipotent god, wouldn’t this be good reason to suppose that this is Truth? Also, since this concept is applied in real life all the time, and the greatest coaches and managers are best at evaluating and choosing the best team members through these same principles, I am still missing how this is not logical.

Based on the fact that you are not superstitious, you must not believe God exists…
But at the same time, you are willing to credit God for pain and suffering, but you are not willing to credit God for creation? Either…
recognize that God created us, and credit ignorant, selfish, and conditional humans for pain and suffering,
OR
recognize that we are purposeless animals, and credit ignorant and selfish humans for pain and suffering, then recognize that the only way to achieve and spread the means to unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, and unstoppable energy as a society and individuals is through the words of Jesus Christ in the Greatest Commandments, as demonstrated by Jesus Christ in His Crucifixion, as Catholicism teaches.

Last my friend, you stated that you are interested in knowing, therefore you must think or in other words, you must believe. And if your belief does not comfort you and others, and false though it may be, then why believe it?

I am very sorry for the difficulties the world is presenting you. I hope you may find greater peace sooner than later. I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to consider my thoughts, and share your perspective. I only hope I may have helped you as much as you have helped me.
 
Lui said:
Well, since I’m not convinced that the teachings of Jesus(who I think maybe never existed) are actually his teachings but rather teachings written by numerous unknown people, I can’t answer with yes or no.
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The issue is whether you accept the** teaching** generally accepted as that of Jesus…
I believe in the interpretation of good and evil values that are man-made and can easily shift(in extreme situations like wars) but don’t I don’t believe in an objective moral code.
I do feel that there is a form of Karma but it’s just a gut feeling. I would feel if I laughed at someone who is terminally ill(just an example) or harm a child(another example) it might come back to me in a negative way but I’m not convinced it’s a fact. It’s just a feeling.
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Then there’s hope for you yet! 😉
 
SwissGuard25 said:
According to the Catechism of the Church.
We are here because on Earth in order to know and to love God, …
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and that only for a short time
(down here that is)

what is your life? It is even a vapor,
that appears for a little time,
and then
vanishes away.

(Jam 4)
 
Lui said:
Well, actually I reject the teaching of guilt: either believe in me as God or go to Hell. That’s what it boils down to.
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Please consider one aspect of the similar belief of, “either Love God or go to Hell”, which might shed some logical understanding to this teaching.
  1. recognize that you want peace and happiness.
  2. recognize that the only way to get peace is to be patient, and the only way to get happiness is to be kind.
  3. recognize that in order to be patient and kind one needs motivation.
  4. recognize the qualities of the source of perfect motivation:
    -inexhaustible: if the source can run out and no longer exist, it is not the best.
    -eternal: it must exist before and after every created being, for if it doesn’t there would be no motivation to create.
    -omnipresent: it must be available everywhere, for if it is not available, the source is lost and the motivation is gone.
    -immaterial: since the source must be omnipresent, it must be immaterial as to go everywhere the being goes, without being materially seen.
    -personal: the source must have a personal interest in the being, for it it doesn’t, the being will lose motivation for something that does not care.
  5. Recognize that there are is only one source which fits this description of inexhaustible, eternal, omnipresent, immaterial, and personal, and that is God. The next one that is justifiable and valid, but not complete is Love.
  6. Recognize that anytime you are out of peace or happiness or energy, you are being called to be patient and kind and perfectly motivated.
  7. Therefore recognize that “Love God or go to Hell” is saying “always be perfectly patient, kind, and motivated, or you will be out of peace, happiness, and energy at some point in time.”
Thoughts?
 
buffalo said:
It is my observation. You have not taken the time to study in depth. Your posts seem to be arguments from incredulity.
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I don’t take anyone serious who thinks Noah’s Ark is a historical fact, Jonas actually lived in a fish and who believes in a young earth. In other words anything you say has no relevance to me.
 
Lui said:
I don’t take anyone serious who thinks Noah’s Ark is a historical fact, Jonas actually lived in a fish and who believes in a young earth. In other words anything you say has no relevance to me.
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You like the limited box that science puts you in. I and many others here on the other hand enjoy the freedom from living outside that box.

God as creator can do anything He wishes. These are very small feats compared to creation itself. I have no problem believing in miracles. The debates here concern evidence.

Your a priori position that God does not exist limits your thought process. It is an irrational position. Hopefully that will change.
 
jochoa said:
  1. Therefore recognize that “Love God or go to Hell” is saying “always be perfectly patient, kind, and motivated, or you will be out of peace, happiness, and energy at some point in time.”
Thoughts?
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Is that the exact teaching of the Church? According to others. you can be the best Catholic there is but if you miss a Mass on Sundays, don’t confess and die of a heart attack, you will go straight to Hell. I know it sounds extremely naive but these are not my words:
There is nothing impossible in prayers. We can lose our salvation ourselves (Catholics) if we commit mortal sin. Missing a Mass on Sundays and do not confess about it is a mortal sin. It is very important to observe the teachings of the Catholic Church especially the Holy Eucharist
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I’ve read tons of quotes like this.
 
Lui said:
Is that the exact teaching of the Church? According to others. you can be the best Catholic there is but if you miss a Mass on Sundays, don’t confess and die of a heart attack, you will go straight to Hell. I know it sounds extremely naive but these are not my words:

I’ve read tons of quotes like this.
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You won’t be the best Catholic there is if you refuse Mass every Sunday. That is basic.

Now it is important to understand perfect contrition and imperfect contrition. Do you know what they are and mean?

Lui, look at it this way.

God is our father. He is always turned towards us despite our thoughts and actions. When you consciously turn your back to Him, the relationship is fractured. If you do this to a loved one how can your relationship grow? If you die in a state of rejection, that is your free will choice. The source and summit of Catholicism is Mass. That is where we encounter Him and partake of the Holy Eucharist.
 
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