Why are WE here?

[tonyrey]

If you don’t know or claim to know what the truth is how can you possibly reject another person’s claim as false?

It doesn't make the slightest difference what the claim is because you have** nothing** on which to base your counterclaim.

 

[tonyrey]

As I’m sure you know, this is one of the most profound of all questions regarding humanity. I’m not so pretentious to assert I have the definitive answer to it. If, as others have stated, the purpose of humanity is to love and worship G-d, and in so doing, be charitable toward our fellow humans (and non-human animals), and subsequently go to Heaven to reside in the presence of G-d, that poses another question, namely, why this short, temporary, mysterious, and sometimes painful sojourn on earth to begin with? Possibly as a learning experience involving the development of courage and perseverance in the face of suffering and adversity, so that we may grow closer in our devotion toward G-d, understanding His love for us through our faith and reason, while emulating that love and directing it toward others.

This sojourn has its own richness, beauty and value in addition to being an opportunity for development…

 

[Lui]

It doesn’t make the slightest difference what the claim is because you have** nothing** on which to base your counterclaim.

Yes I do: my belief. That’s all you have too to claim God, Heaven and Hell exists…

P.S. if you quote me, make sure you quote me right.

 

[tonyrey]

It doesn’t make the slightest difference what the claim is because you have* nothing***

Why should one belief be superior to another? If you have **nothing more than your belief **there is no point in attacking some one else’s belief…

 

[Lui]

Why should one belief be superior to another? If you have **nothing more than your belief **there is no point in attacking some one else’s belief…

I agree to that. I didn’t attack someone else’s belief. I was attacked by some else’s belief. I only said that I don’t believe in Hell and and was told I am no longer invincibly ignorant, so I should be concerned.
I was told that Catholicism is the truth, and everything that departs from it one iota, is disorder, deception, and error.
I was shown the visions of a nun and what I have to expect in horrendous detail.

Muslims believe that if you don’t follow the Koran, you will burn in Hell. If I told you that you should follow the Koran for this reason, it would be pretty presumptuous, wouldn’t it?. That’s how I feel when Catholics tell me that if I don’t follow Church teachings, I will be tortured in Hell until eternity, so excuse me if I defend myself.

 

[Lui]

Perhaps you should read the diary to see if she was. You should also know of the resistance the Church had for many years and why after she became a saint. But I doubt your a priori worldview would allow you to. So irrational.

I missed this post.

News Flash again: I have the book and I read it(and watched the movie). I thought it was extremely confusing and in some ways contradicted certain teachings.
Even the Church thought she was a mental case, like you mention. I guess she became a Saint because John Paul II was Polish, and oh, what a surprise, so was Maria Faustina Kowalska. If that isn’t a coincidence…

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lui,

You certainly have gotten carried away - wondering about non-existent threats because you are using your free will!

Relax … and just keep on whisteling in the dark…

God bless

News flash: I doubt that and even if so, Americans aren’t the majority of humans on this earth and thankfully Fundamentalists who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible are the minority. There are several billion Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, other religions and even Christians who don’t believe in Hell.

Is that a threat? YOU should be concerned who you are threatening!!! Go believe in Tinkerbell and leave me alone with your ignorant views.

Why does this remind me of witch hunts of the Middle Ages. All I do is express my freedom of speech and immediately I am threatened with eternal damnation. Last time I checked people of other beliefs are allowed to express their opinions in this forum without getting harrassed.

 

[Lui]

[Hi, Lui,

You certainly have gotten carried away - wondering about non-existent threats because you are using your free will!

Writing in font 3 size navy blue letters doesn’t make anything you say seem more relevant.

Relax … and just keep on whisteling in the dark…

Right back at you: keep whistling in the dark:thumbsup:
[/quote]

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lui,

I don’t want you to really trivialize this experience you are bragging about … so … please, what did you learn from this book?

God bless

I missed this post.

News Flash again: I have the book and I read it(and watched the movie). I thought it was extremely confusing and in some ways contradicted certain teachings.
Even the Church thought she was a mental case, like you mention. I guess she became a Saint because John Paul II was Polish, and oh, what a surprise, so was Maria Faustina Kowalska. If that isn’t a coincidence…

 

[Lui]

I don’t want you to really trivialize this experience you are bragging about … so … please, what did you learn from this book?

Am I bragging about this or are you just using your pride to talk down on me?

I learned nothing from this book. I just wondered if Sister Faustina might have had a psychosis or another mental disorder. I thought it was very confusing at times. She isn’t the only “Saint” where I suspected that though.

 

[jochoa]

My dear friend, Lui. When I share the following, please recognize that I hope you may find the peaceful knowledge of wisdom of living for Jesus Christ and humanity and an initial analysis of growing in Goodness.

Since I know our discussion as a team has lost focus of your initial question, please share your thoughts on knowing why we are here:

That’s a question no one can answer. In other words, no one knows. To say we evolved from a single-cell organism over billions of years to humans explains HOW we got here by science. Every religion has it’s own theory how we got here. Philosophy and religion also have their theories WHY we are here but no one really knows.
I would say this question can’t be answered but directly. We can just make assumptions or explain theories based on beliefs.

Since you are correct: let’s not consider how we are here, since we can knowingly recognize that: how we are here, while living in time, will always be Faith-based(a belief/theory).
Now, let’s consider the even more basic questions of: Why are you here reading this reply? Why am I here responding to your question?
It is known that we are both trying and achieving some level of growth, as well as spreading of the means to growth, in peace/patience, happiness/kindness, energy/motivation, and wisdom/knowledge.
Since it is known that we are ultimately trying to achieve perfect peace, happiness, energy, and knowledge as individuals, as well as a society, with every single thought and action, recognize:
-Although we do not know the science, and cannot prove or disprove the existence, nor resurrection of Jesus Christ while living in time, we can know that Jesus stated the knowledge of how to achieve, and spread the means of achieving, unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, unstoppable energy, and content wisdom in His Greatest Commandments and demonstrated the Perfection of the Greatest Commandments in His Crucifixion, in the face of unjust hatred.
-His Answer: Always be and spread the means to be perfectly patient and kind and motivated with all your body and with all your spirit and with all your thoughts and with all your will equally towards others and yourself.
-is The Answer: The Way to Peace is Patience, to Happiness is Kindness, to Energy is Motivation, to Wisdom is Knowledge, and each must be done perfectly throughout your body/image, thoughts/knowledge, and will and equally towards others and yourself. For although each component and factor of being is completely you, each can act independently of each other, and the pinnacle of being is all components and factors working together in unity, aka Holy Spirit.

Here is an initial step to begin growing in Greater Faith:
Recognize that you, my friend, have the great gift of logic. Since your mind is very logical, you have been presented the difficult challenge of listening to your body. Although it is very easy to listen to your body when it is experiencing pain and fatigue, it is extremely difficult to listen to your body when it is telling your mind, it wants you to grow in the faith in Jesus Christ.
Your mind is not recognizing the purpose of what brings your body to a Catholic Answers website because every answer, Catholicism provides, will be based on achieving and spreading the means to unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, unstoppable energy, and content wisdom as individuals of a society of God.
The reason it is a gift, is that, you can use your great logic to prove to others how Jesus Christ is God!

And to better help me understand where else you are having difficulty of accepting the Faith in Jesus Christ, please consider the following question: Since you have to have faith in coming into existence and what happens at the end of time, why not have faith in Jesus Christ?

Please know that I thoroughly appreciate you being in my life. I have grown in perspective, knowledge, wisdom, and faith from pondering your questions. I can only hope I may be helping you.

Thoughts?

 

[tonyrey]

I agree to that. I didn’t attack someone else’s belief. I was attacked by some else’s belief. I only said that I don’t believe in Hell and and was told I am no longer invincibly ignorant, s I should be concerned.
I was told that Catholicism is the truth, and everything that departs from it one iota, is disorder, deception, and error.
I was shown the visions of a nun and what I have to expect in horrendous detail.

Muslims believe that if you don’t follow the Koran, you will burn in Hell. If I told you that you should follow the Koran for this reason, it would be pretty presumptuous, wouldn’t it?. That’s how I feel when Catholics tell me that if I don’t follow Church teachings, I will be tortured in Hell until eternity, so excuse me if I defend myself.

You are fully entitled to defend yourself!

I was just commenting on the claim that if one doesn’t know or claim to know what the truth is one cannot possibly reject another person’s claim as false.

Of course we are in a much stronger position if we give** reasons** for what we believe - or don’t believe…

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lui,

Is this another example of the good use of free will? Attacking me -and the font I use - does nothing to explain your claim of being threatened because you used your free will.

If you don’t know why you are here, you have a life time to find out. But, after that last breath, the potential for change is gone.

God bless

Writing in font 3 size navy blue letters doesn’t make anything you say seem more relevant.

Right back at you: keep whistling in the dark:thumbsup:

 

[jmcrae]

The difference is that I know a bridge exists for a fact because all people on this planet will tell me that the bridge exists.

Christianity is built on belief and belief only. If only 2 billion people are Christians and from those 2 billion maybe a part actually believe, what makes me think that they are right?
I don’t believe in Hell but I know that I will die if I fall off a bridge.

What if the sign is on a hill, and you can’t actually see whether the bridge is actually out, or not?

Do you believe the sign anyway, even without any evidence? Or do you need to go over the hill (and plunge to your death) to find out for sure?

If you believe the sign anyway, then you have no basis for rejecting God, since other people, better educated than the people who put up road signs, are telling you that He exists.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jmcrae,

Great post

God bless

What if the sign is on a hill, and you can’t actually see whether the bridge is actually out, or not?

Do you believe the sign anyway, even without any evidence? Or do you need to go over the hill (and plunge to your death) to find out for sure?

If you believe the sign anyway, then you have no basis for rejecting God, since other people, better educated than the people who put up road signs, are telling you that He exists.

 

[Lui]

And to better help me understand where else you are having difficulty of accepting the Faith in Jesus Christ, please consider the following question: Since you have to have faith in coming into existence and what happens at the end of time, why not have faith in Jesus Christ?

Thoughts?

I appreciate your politeness but if years of trying to believe in Christ and not getting one bit more faithful but instead only getting more doubts, doesn’t give me the faith that there is anyone up there who is actually supporting me. If I would reject Christianity without ever having tried one could accuse me of closing myself to God but being an atheist most of my life and then going the step to open myself and trying for years just to not gain one bit of faith, peace or any feeling that I’m closer to God, but instead a feeling of the total absence of God, doesn’t exactly make me feel there is a God.

Of course we are in a much stronger position if we give** reasons** for what we believe - or don’t believe…

I mentioned one reason above but my main reasons for doubting are if I try to believe with my heart, I feel there is nothing there. If I try to believe with logic, I totally reject faith. I’m not saying Christianity is wrong but I don’t buy it. I tried but I couldn’t be convinced.

I’m surprised that all the people on here seem to have the ability to believe without problems and never doubt.

 

[Lui]

What if the sign is on a hill, and you can’t actually see whether the bridge is actually out, or not?

Do you believe the sign anyway, even without any evidence? Or do you need to go over the hill (and plunge to your death) to find out for sure?

If you believe the sign anyway, then you have no basis for rejecting God, since other people, better educated than the people who put up road signs, are telling you that He exists.

The problem is that people who are just as educated as those who say he exists, say he doesn’t exist. Again, other people who are just as educated as the ones who say he exists and those who say doesn’t exist, believe that God exists but Jesus is just a prophet or that he wasn’t the Messiah and the Messiah is still coming, or they believe in Hinduism, Buddhism or another theory.
Which of the equally highly educated people are right?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lui,

It really isn’t a matter of education or IQ or what type of personality you have. Faith is a Gift.

Now, we have a natural faith - a faith that lets us walk forward or backward without looking down and looking at where we put each step. No one questions this type of faith - yet ackowledging God as the Creator when we know we did not make the universe, nor did our parents or grand-parents or any humans - is questioned.

There is nothing stopping you for praying for this Gift. Atheism holds no promise of anything - it is a total negation and that is an emptiness that people try to fill with every imaginable created object. Unfortunately, there is a spot in the human heart that will not be satisfied with anything less than God Himself.

My guess is that you are on CAF for a reason. I hope you find what you are looking for.

God bless

The problem is that people who are just as educated as those who say he exists, say he doesn’t exist. Again, other people who are just as educated as the ones who say he exists and those who say doesn’t exist, believe that God exists but Jesus is just a prophet or that he wasn’t the Messiah and the Messiah is still coming, or they believe in Hinduism, Buddhism or another theory.
Which of the equally highly educated people are right?

 

[jochoa]

I appreciate your politeness but if years of trying to believe in Christ and not getting one bit more faithful but instead only getting more doubts, doesn’t give me the faith that there is anyone up there who is actually supporting me. If I would reject Christianity without ever having tried one could accuse me of closing myself to God but being an atheist most of my life and then going the step to open myself and trying for years just to not gain one bit of faith, peace or any feeling that I’m closer to God, but instead a feeling of the total absence of God, doesn’t exactly make me feel there is a God.

Excellent points, my friend! Please note: I have no idea the complete justification of why you reject Christianity, and I will fully respect that your faith in atheism is probably equal to my faith in Catholicism. Therefore, I am willing to agree to disagree as to how we got here, and only discuss fact.

I have a couple of questions regarding our discussion:
Throughout the course of our discussion, you have yet to share your thoughts on many of the other concepts I presented. If you have the time, would you please share your thoughts regarding a few of those other concepts?

Knowing the proportions of the qualities of:
Patience=Peace and Kindness=Happiness
Will you freely desire growing in patience and kindness towards others and yourself, so that we may grow as a team, and you may grow as an individual, in peace and happiness?

I mentioned one reason above but my main reasons for doubting are if I try to believe with my heart, I feel there is nothing there. If I try to believe with logic, I totally reject faith. I’m not saying Christianity is wrong but I don’t buy it. I tried but I couldn’t be convinced.

You have some valid points, and if you are willing, please consider the following method to recognize how they are incomplete:
When you state “…you feel nothing there,” what type of feeling indicates faith?
When you state “try to believe with logic,” whose logic are you open to considering?
And to offer possible answers:
Your body is feeling the need to return and participate in discussion, where the defense of the Catholic Faith is heavily shared.
Your logic is valid, it is also limited to your circular reasoning. Please consider:
Since freely wanting to be and spread the means to be patient, kind, motivated equally towards others and the self, yields greater peace, happiness, energy as a society and individual, which of the following is more logical?
A. Having faith in a source of motivation, which is exhaustible, material, temporal or personal.
B. Having faith in a source of motivation, which is inexhaustible, immaterial, omnipresent, eternal, and personal.

I’m surprised that all the people on here seem to have the ability to believe without problems and never doubt.

Please consider two points:

1. Please note, that personally, my ability to know, came after great struggles of lack of perspective and doubt.
2. Recognize that you are in a similar position as the other people. You have an ability to believe in atheism without problems, however there is one major difference. You have doubt in your faith, whereas I and many others know ours is the Truth.

Thoughts?

 

[Lui]

Please consider two points:

1. Please note, that personally, my ability to know, came after great struggles of lack of perspective and doubt.
2. Recognize that you are in a similar position as the other people. You have an ability to believe in atheism without problems, however there is one major difference. You have doubt in your faith, whereas I and many others know ours is the Truth.

Thoughts?

I have never said that I am an atheist. I have said in various posts that I just don’t know what the truth is. I don’t know if Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Christians, atheism or any other belief system are right or wrong. Each belief system not only believes its right but also claims to have the proof and the followers of each system claim to know their belief is the truth. There is a reason why billions believe in Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism etc.
I only mentioned that I WAS an atheist most of my life but even that isn’t the exact truth. I just never thought if any specific religion or belief system is true so I never specifically rejected any religion. I just never spent my time thinking about any religions. I was raised without religion so basically my position was like your position towards the religion of the Incas. You probably never waste a thought about what religion they might have had and therefore do not specifically reject them.

In other words, before I never even thought about religions. When I finally did I tried to be Catholic(I was baptized as a Catholic). After a while I realized I can’t force myself to believe. Now my position is I just don’t know if any religion is right or not which is probably considered as agnostic if you want to label it.