Why are we judged on such a brief flicker of time?

[Ion]

I think for Eve in the Garden, it was less than 5 min. One sin is too much in a perfect world.

 

[tonyrey]

We’re not!

 

[Neoplatonist]

First of all scripture reveals God to be incomparably fair, just, kind, and patient. We’re also told that He judges by the heart, where man judges by appearances. And Luke 12:48 provides us with a principle: that we’ll be judged according to what we’ve been given; much more will be expected from those who are given much, less from those given less. The Parable of the Talents sheds light on this as well. In any case this life affords us with an opportunity to grow towards righteousness/perfection, with the help of grace and revelation and whatever time and experiences avail themselves. Do we become more oriented towards the good, or has evil gained or retained the upper hand in our lives, shown by how we live?

I don’t quite see how you address my point. I think I can accept any of the things you’ve said. Let’s pick not 5 minutes but, say, our entire 7th-grade year in school. There is time during that year to grow toward the good or turn toward the bad, etc., etc. What parent would sentence their child’s entire future to be set in stone based on how the behaved or, as you say, as they felt in their hearts? 7th-grade is not very far along the scale of measurement, and one year is not a very big sample.

 

[fhansen]

I don’t quite see how you address my point. I think I can accept any of the things you’ve said. Let’s pick not 5 minutes but, say, our entire 7th-grade year in school. There is time during that year to grow toward the good or turn toward the bad, etc., etc. What parent would sentence their child’s entire future to be set in stone based on how the behaved or, as you say, as they felt in their hearts? 7th-grade is not very far along the scale of measurement, and one year is not a very big sample.

I didn’t say that it depends on how they felt in their hearts, but that God judges by the heart. We’re basically judged based on what we’ve done with what we’re given. Some have a great deal of time to grow towards holiness while others don’t; some have little opportunity to begin with, having come from an abusive, negative background with little or no encouragement to seek truth and goodness at all, just the opposite in many cases.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Actually - no we are not asked to do more than what Jon said. All of our our faith is built upon Agape Love. It is the foundation of the Law and the Prophets. It is the very essence of God. It is more important than faith or hope. It is the one thing that we need to strive for perfection in.
All other things, in order to be worthwhile must be rooted in this rich and eternal soil.
As for following things blindly. To do so would be foolish. So far as I am aware, the Church does not teach that we are to follow blindly. There are immense volumes of information on every subject explaining the whys of Church teaching. If a person chooses not to read them. That says more about them then the Church.

That’s like saying the only thing you need to do to succeed in America is accept the Constitution. You’re right, we can simply it down to one term if we want, but to pretend that is actually a simple thing to live out loses its merit.

Yes - in such a comparison it is a small time…but your comparison to 5 minutes of the life of a 3rd grader is not a fair comparison either.
70 years is a very long time in the reckoning of human time. To a 3rd grader, 5 minutes is only long if they have to sit still..

The concern still holds even if we change to consider the whole 3rd-grade year, although that is nowhere close to the ratio of 70 years / 1,000,000 years.

This is not the only conclusion that the teacher can draw. Learning is not something that a teacher does…It is something the student does.
If the teacher, in spite of his best efforts and in spite of providing, sees the class sleeping, looking out the window, or in other ways simply ignoring him…has little choice but to allow the students to learn from the consequences of their actions.

Yes, by re-doing part of the lesson, not by condemning the student to a Soviet re-education camp.

1. Since vegetables have life, grow and change, I don’t see the validity of the comparison.
2. I am not aware of any teaching that says we do not change or grow in the next life. If you are aware of any…could you point it out?

This was half of an alternative. If you disagree with this possibility, I’m fine. That leads us to follow the second of the alternatives, which seems to amplify the problem presented.

Just as a thought…If you sit in a movie theater watching a movie…have you changed over that time? You’ve sat still and watched. Like a “waking vegetative state”. Are you aware of the passage of time?
We are told that those in heaven are aware of those on earth. This would give them the ability to perceive the passage of time while they remain the same.
Just a thought.

Again, I’m fine with that. Yes, if it were a powerful, significant movie, then I probably would be changed by it. If I watched a movie that lasted for 1,000 years, then you bet your bottom dollar I would be changed by it. If you have never come out of a movie changed, then you haven’t watched the right movies.

I disagree.
There are greater changes involved in our translation from this life to the next.

The more we change the greater the seeming unfairness of that ‘other’ person being condemned by what ‘this’ person has decided. This is like me being committed to a career as a celibate hermit because when I was in third grade that seemed really cool. Consider how differently that valuation might have changed once i hit puberty. Surely the kind of changes you refer to are at least as powerful and significant as that one.

We cannot conceive of this being a good thing…Which is why God does not work like this.
First of all - We choose our destination, not God. We do so by our choices in this life. Like the students in the class room, God gives us the information - what we do with it is up to us.
Second - the idea of a “coma” doesn’t work because, good or bad, we are separated from the parent. This is not how God works.
At death, we reach out to that which we have embraced and fostered in life. If we have embraced the vices…pride, selfishness, hate being principle among these, then that is what we will reach out to in death. We will embrace these and fall into the abyss of our our own choosing.
If we have embraced the virtues…love, charity, humility being chief among these, then we will reach out to love in death - and since God is Love, we will be reaching for God.
If we have embraced these virtues imperfectly, then we will reach out to mercy in death…and God will show mercy.
In each case, the person receives that which they have embraced in life.

I don’t care how passionately that 3rd grader wanted to be a celibate desert hermit, or how many books he read about it, how many people he told, or how much time he went around acting as if that were his true path HE WAS IN 3RD GRADE. Let’s be real: most people would not even be able to live with their first choice of major when they first got to college, and that’s far far closer to an adult than we are to God.

Thanks for your ideas.

 

[Catolico65]

How strange it would be for us to judge a child, choose their future career, their happiness, their everything, based on how they behaved or felt or what they said during one random period of 5 minutes back when they were in 3rd grade.

Now, if our souls live for eternity, as is indicated in the tradition of faith, can we make sense out of how it would seem “just” when God is doing, as far as we can tell, the same thing? What are 70 years compared to eternity but a blink? What are we to God but naive, feeble-minded children? Why then give us the power in such a situation to determine our eternal fate?

Let me be clear: I’m not saying he shouldn’t. I’m not saying I’d do it differently. I’m just asking how we can modify or interpret the situation so that it fits with what we think of as fair or merciful.

I would recommend trying to have a different perspective regarding life and our judgment. God sees our secret thoughts and thus knows if we are sincerely trying to please Him and love others in spite of our constant failures. Our failures can also spur us on to become more humble and more effective at loving others and spreading the Gospel, but of course this is never license for one to justify his sins.

 

[JRKH]

That’s like saying the only thing you need to do to succeed in America is accept the Constitution. You’re right, we can simply it down to one term if we want, but to pretend that is actually a simple thing to live out loses its merit.

Note that I never said that this was simple or easy to live out…Yet the simplicity of the underlying principle does not lose it’s merit if one embraces it and seeks to build on it.
The only way this simplicity loses merit is through rejection - not by some inherent defect of the principle.

Yes, by re-doing part of the lesson, not by condemning the student to a Soviet re-education camp.

And yet - no matter how many times the teacher redoes part of the lesson, it still remains the student’s responsibility to learn and apply it. The teacher cannot make the student learn.
In terms of God and his creation…He has granted us free will and will respect that regardless of the decision we make.

The more we change the greater the seeming unfairness of that ‘other’ person being condemned by what ‘this’ person has decided. This is like me being committed to a career as a celibate hermit because when I was in third grade that seemed really cool. Consider how differently that valuation might have changed once i hit puberty. Surely the kind of changes you refer to are at least as powerful and significant as that one.

I don’t care how passionately that 3rd grader wanted to be a celibate desert hermit, or how many books he read about it, how many people he told, or how much time he went around acting as if that were his true path HE WAS IN 3RD GRADE. Let’s be real: most people would not even be able to live with their first choice of major when they first got to college, and that’s far far closer to an adult than we are to God.

I wonder - Do you assume that God odes not take such things into account when it comes to teaching, guiding and ultimately judging us?
The god you are describing would indeed be an unfair god. Fortunately our God, is not like this.

To continue with your “third grader” analogy…Consider that this third grader tries his best to be a good boy. He makes his bed (though not perfectly). He puts his laundry in the basket (well most of the time). He gives his parents hugs and kisses (though sometimes there is jelly on his mouth and fingers). He makes drawings that are mainly stick people and gives them to his mom (who puts them on the fridge door).
Of course, he also tracks in with muddy shoes from time to time, doesn’t necessarily do all of his homework, occasionally roughhouses on the couch with the dog - maybe even breaks a lamp…but each time he is correct, he is truly sorry and tries his 9-10 year old best to improve…
How will the parent judge such a one?

Thanks for your ideas.

You are welcome…
Keep thinking and asking and contemplating.
Be open to new perspectives.
And most importantly - remember that Love is at the core.
The Holy Spirit will do the rest.

Peace
James

 

[Jon_S_1]

I don’t quite see how you address my point. I think I can accept any of the things you’ve said. Let’s pick not 5 minutes but, say, our entire 7th-grade year in school. There is time during that year to grow toward the good or turn toward the bad, etc., etc. What parent would sentence their child’s entire future to be set in stone based on how the behaved or, as you say, as they felt in their hearts? 7th-grade is not very far along the scale of measurement, and one year is not a very big sample.

Why children.

Do you think adults have the reasoning and ability of young children?

It seems a more fair example might be.

An adult son is living with his parents. They give their son give years to venture out and get a job and live a productive life. They give him textbooks, introduce him to mentors and lay out a plan for him.

Instead he chooses his own plan and rejects his parents. Then at the end of the five years. He is still living on their couch eating Doritos and playing video games.

They choose to no longer support his destructive habits and tell him to leave .

Is this unjust?

Not at all. And really all the parents did was love and support and help. The son chose to reject that gift and suffer the consequences.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Why children.

Do you think adults have the reasoning and ability of children?

It seems a more fair example might be.

An adult son is living with his parents. They give their son give years to venture out and get a job and live a productive life. They give him textbooks, introduce him to mentors and lay out a plan for him.

Instead he chooses his own plan and rejects his parents. Then at the end of the five years. He is still living on their couch eating Doritos and playing video games.

They choose to no longer support his destructive habits and tell him to leave .

Is this unjust?

Not at all. And really all the parents did was love and support and help. The son chose to reject that gift and suffer the consequences.

“Children” because we are comparing people to God, and we are comparing people who are 40 or 70 when they die to souls that have subsequently lived for 10,000 years.

Your adult kid living at home is not quite apt, I hope, because that would imply parents (or teachers or whatever) that were not enough smarter than their son to find a solution.

We’re not talking about God being outsmarted by Almost-Gods. We’re talking about Piaget or Adler being outsmarted by a bunch of kindergartners. In fact, the situation is more equivalent to a parent who has raised millions of kids, but still hasn’t figured out how to raise them successfully.

 

[Jon_S_1]

“Children” because we are comparing people to God, and we are comparing people who are 40 or 70 when they die to souls that have subsequently lived for 10,000 years.

Your adult kid living at home is not quite apt, I hope, because that would imply parents (or teachers or whatever) that were not enough smarter than their son to find a solution.

We’re not talking about God being outsmarted by Almost-Gods. We’re talking about Piaget or Adler being outsmarted by a bunch of kindergartners. In fact, the situation is more equivalent to a parent who has raised millions of kids, but still hasn’t figured out how to raise them successfully.

No that’s not it at all.

God is not raising us. He made us in his image. We have plenty if knowledge of him and the church to make decisions. In addition God has written truth on our hearts which is why all cultures seek him and why you ask these questions. We need to listen to that.

God gave us life. He owes us nothing. We have no rite to say raise me God.

A young child not fully developed is no comparison to us. If your trying to be proportionate than comparing an embryo to parent is still insufficient to comparing God and man.

Not just because of knowledge but also ability. We have far more ability to find God than an embryo had to find his mom.

If you learn to understand a more accurate view of God than you will see why my adult child example is far closer than any of yours.

As for parents not being able to find a solution for the son…it is not their responsibility to do anything for a full grown man. So all they do is out if love and hope that he will choose to love himself and them enough to be gracious and choose the correct path.

So too with God and us.

 

[Neoplatonist]

No that’s not it at all.

God is not raising us. He made us in his image. We have plenty if knowledge of him and the church to make decisions. In addition God has written truth on our hearts which is why all cultures seek him and why you ask these questions. We need to listen to that.

God gave us life. He owes us nothing. We have no rite to say raise me God.

Fine. If God’s not raising us, then let’s cease and desist with all the Father talk and parent gives a child bread not a stone talk from the Bible. We can’t have it both ways.

I’m actually OK with God not ‘raising’ us, as long as he doesn’t put us and our free will down in the middle of a system where we can screw up so badly that we end up in a Soviet stalag for the next 100 MILLION years.

A young child not fully developed is no comparison to us. If your trying to be proportionate than comparing an embryo to parent is still insufficient to comparing God and man.
Not just because of knowledge but also ability. We have far more ability to find God than an embryo had to find his mom.

If you learn to understand a more accurate view of God than you will see why my adult child example is far closer than any of yours.

What? which way is it? You’re arguing my metaphor is bad in both directions.

As for parents not being able to find a solution for the son…it is not their responsibility to do anything for a full grown man. So all they do is out if love and hope that he will choose to love himself and them enough to be gracious and choose the correct path.

So too with God and us.

‘Full grown’ compared to God? Are you serious? I don’t care if one of the 3rd-graders seems grown compared to the other 3rd-graders. What is more, the very fact that we can, as discussed in other posts on this thread, continue to learn and change over the next 100 million years suggests that even in the context of human potential we are ridiculously far from grown - and by “grown” I mean reaching some reasonable proximity of our maximum potential.

If the ways in which we can learn and change would be such as to make us more competent and informed moral decision makers, then how can we say we approach real maturity in this one bodily lifetime?

If, however, none of the ways in which we could learn and change would be such as to make us more competent moral decision makers, then I question whether that learning or change is ‘meaningful’ or moves us any further toward the good. In which case, why bother?

If you’re going to say we’re grown, help me see how we can consider ourselves grown in comparison to God, not compared to other 3rd graders (or even 4th graders).

 

[jmcrae]

How strange it would be for us to judge a child, choose their future career, their happiness, their everything, based on how they behaved or felt or what they said during one random period of 5 minutes back when they were in 3rd grade.

Actually, based on the sum of experiences and attitudes, teachers who see them every day can often tell what an eight year old will do with his or her life, and whether they will go to college, or not. Does this mean the teacher is “judging” the child, or “making them” not go to college? Not at all.

In the same way, God can tell, at the end of our lives, which we will choose - eternal life and happiness with Him, or the other.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m just asking how we can modify or interpret the situation so that it fits with what we think of as fair or merciful.

Where do you get your ideas of what is fair or merciful?

 

[Neoplatonist]

Actually, based on the sum of experiences and attitudes, teachers who see them every day can often tell what an eight year old will do with his or her life, and whether they will go to college, or not. Does this mean the teacher is “judging” the child, or “making them” not go to college? Not at all.

In the same way, God can tell, at the end of our lives, which we will choose - eternal life and happiness with Him, or the other.

Sometimes they can foresee it. I am constantly mind-boggled at the transformations some of my students have made. Cannot count the number of life-saving, world-transforming decisions have been made at the last minute, or the number of same that have been made even mid-career.

The eternal permanence is the rub. Besides, what would it mean to say we had free will once our chance to change had been closed off? If we do not have free will after point x, are we not, then, just happy or unhappy prisoners/slaves?

Consider, too, our choices and trend, if you will, in this life all happened BEFORE the coolest, most mind-blowing experiences ever (witness to eternity). That’s like saying you have to make your decision about celibacy before you ever actually meet any women. You can read about them, you can hear other people talk about them, you can believe in your heart that they are real; but if you haven’t met them, you really can’t fairly be held permanently bound by your decisions about marriage/celibacy. That’s been a hard-learned lesson for the church over the course of her history (and still being learned in some ways).

 

[Neoplatonist]

Where do you get your ideas of what is fair or merciful?

From our experience with other people individually and in community, as well as by learning from the lessons passed on by those who came before us.

I suggest danger in this direction, to anticipate a little (perhaps incorrectly), because if you are going to suggest we should be basing our standards of fair and merciful on what we see in the Bible, all Hell would break loose - almost literally. We would probably need a whole separate thread to address that.

 

[tonyrey]

From our experience with other people individually and in community, as well as by learning from the lessons passed on by those who came before us.

I suggest danger in this direction, to anticipate a little (perhaps incorrectly), because if you are going to suggest we should be basing our standards of fair and merciful on what we see in the Bible, all Hell would break loose - almost literally. We would probably need a whole separate thread to address that.

Civilised standards of both mercy and justice are based on the teaching of Jesus:

“Forgive us **as **we forgive…”

It follows that we are not “judged on such a brief flicker of time” but in proportion to our love for others.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Fine. If God’s not raising us, then let’s cease and desist with all the Father talk and parent gives a child bread not a stone talk from the Bible. We can’t have it both ways.

I’m actually OK with God not ‘raising’ us, as long as he doesn’t put us and our free will down in the middle of a system where we can screw up so badly that we end up in a Soviet stalag for the next 100 MILLION years.

What? which way is it? You’re arguing my metaphor is bad in both directions.

‘Full grown’ compared to God? Are you serious? I don’t care if one of the 3rd-graders seems grown compared to the other 3rd-graders. What is more, the very fact that we can, as discussed in other posts on this thread, continue to learn and change over the next 100 million years suggests that even in the context of human potential we are ridiculously far from grown - and by “grown” I mean reaching some reasonable proximity of our maximum potential.

If the ways in which we can learn and change would be such as to make us more competent and informed moral decision makers, then how can we say we approach real maturity in this one bodily lifetime?

If, however, none of the ways in which we could learn and change would be such as to make us more competent moral decision makers, then I question whether that learning or change is ‘meaningful’ or moves us any further toward the good. In which case, why bother?

If you’re going to say we’re grown, help me see how we can consider ourselves grown in comparison to God, not compared to other 3rd graders (or even 4th graders).

We don’t need to compare with God…in fact we can’t. The goal is not to become God. The goal is to be joined back in communion with God. The goal is to be like we were in the garden. Communing fully with God.

That goal is attained by simply placing God first in our lives. Trusting in him and his commands and realizing we can’t do it without him.

The church tells of us many people that have done this. They are called saints.

 

[Neoplatonist]

This is still the authority figure saying: “Your life should be centered on me. Worship me, do everything I tell you, ignore whatever you want and focus only on what I want, choose the life I want you to choose, be the person I want you to be; otherwise, off to the stalag.”

There’s one set of programs written on your heart, one set hard-wired into the wetware I’ve given you. Good luck. If you happen to re-think your choices while you’re there, too bad. 1 billion years is your sentence, no chance for parole.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Civilised standards of both mercy and justice are based on the teaching of Jesus:

“Forgive us **as **we forgive…”

It follows that we are not “judged on such a brief flicker of time” but in proportion to our love for others.

If that is true, then it would follow that we had no standards of mercy or justice before Jesus came. (And if THAT were true, it would mean Jesus suffered no injustice, nor Socrates, nor Uriah- strange to consider the implications of that line of reasoning.)

In proportion to our love for others

*during *our brief flicker of time on earth!

 

[Jon_S_1]

This is still the authority figure saying: “Your life should be centered on me. Worship me, do everything I tell you, ignore whatever you want and focus only on what I want, choose the life I want you to choose, be the person I want you to be; otherwise, off to the stalag.”

There’s one set of programs written on your heart, one set hard-wired into the wetware I’ve given you. Good luck. If you happen to re-think your choices while you’re there, too bad. 1 billion years is your sentence, no chance for parole.

Many have theorized that the gates of hell are locked from the inside. Meaning those there are so consumed with themselves they can’t even see God.

This isn’t about doing Gods program verses an equally good plan of man.

It is about choosing others above ourselves. It’s about being with the creator. The one who sustains all.

Irenaeus said “The glory of God is man fully alive”. This is what the church teaches. Until we are fully alive with God we don’t truly live.

I think it would help you greatly to watch Fr Barron teach about God. God is far less some man in the sky and for more “being itself” ipsum esse. He IS.

He is being itself.

Check out this 7 min video
youtu.be/W_Yjue8MXAI