Why are we not teaching?

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

It often comes up that we cannot use Gregorian Chant or Latin in the Liturgy because people are not trained to do this or don’t know it and would be lost, etc.

Then why are we not teaching them? Do we think they will spontaneously learn it on their own? Why are we not forming scholas to train cantors and choirs in Gregorian Chant and having Gregorian Chant and Latin taught in CCD (a children’s schola)? Why are we not teaching the congregations the simple chants that they should know, and the parts of the Mass in Latin that they should know?

 

[KingAlfred]

Hello,

It often comes up that we cannot use Gregorian Chant or Latin in the Liturgy because people are not trained to do this or don’t know it and would be lost, etc.

Then why are we not teaching them? Do we think they will spontaneously learn it on their own? Why are we not forming scholas to train cantors and choirs in Gregorian Chant and having Gregorian Chant and Latin taught in CCD (a children’s schola)? Why are we not teaching the congregations the simple chants that they should know, and the parts of the Mass in Latin that they should know?

Because these things are not essential to the Christian fight to save humanity. We’re living in the twilight of Christian Civilization, and the stakes for losing this war are huge. Our ability to speak Latin has nothing to do with this, the most desperate struggle known to Western Man.

 

[japhy]

It often comes up that we cannot use Gregorian Chant or Latin in the Liturgy because people are not trained to do this or don’t know it and would be lost, etc. Then why are we not teaching them? Do we think they will spontaneously learn it on their own? Why are we not forming scholas to train cantors and choirs in Gregorian Chant and having Gregorian Chant and Latin taught in CCD (a children’s schola)? Why are we not teaching the congregations the simple chants that they should know, and the parts of the Mass in Latin that they should know?

SHHH! You’re letting the cat out of the bag. Nevermind that Vatican II said that pastors of souls should teach the faithful entrusted to them, with great zeal, to make the Latin responses proper to them and participate in the Holy Mass with Gregorian chant.

I think it really comes down to this: the people whose job it will be to do this teaching and training a) don’t know it themselves, b) dread it, c) dread teaching it to others, and d) fear this sort of change. They don’t fear all change, just change of this sort… you know, changes that restore to the Catholic identity what has been stripped from it and missing on a wide, nearly global scale, for the past few decades.

But what those people don’t know is that there are people who would gladly take the jobs of catechizing. Those of us who are committed to restoring these things need to speak up! (I’m guilty of this as well.) We need a spirit of courage to overcome our fear.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
It often comes up that we cannot use Gregorian Chant or Latin in the Liturgy because people are not trained to do this or don’t know it and would be lost, etc.

Then why are we not teaching them?**

**Who’s “we,” Kemo Sabe? YOU are part of “we.”

What are YOU doing, JMJ Coder, to teach these things to others?**

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Some of us are working on it. It doesn’t happen overnight.

What are YOU doing to help?

 

[Sarabande]

Hello,

It often comes up that we cannot use Gregorian Chant or Latin in the Liturgy because people are not trained to do this or don’t know it and would be lost, etc.

Then why are we not teaching them? Do we think they will spontaneously learn it on their own? Why are we not forming scholas to train cantors and choirs in Gregorian Chant and having Gregorian Chant and Latin taught in CCD (a children’s schola)? Why are we not teaching the congregations the simple chants that they should know, and the parts of the Mass in Latin that they should know?

There are many reasons.

• People do like to pay lip service regarding chant having a pride and place at the mass or Latin being the language of the Church and that it should be taught or re-introduced to the people, but that’s all it is - lip service. Nothing else is done to make it happen.
• No support from above. Pastors or bishops may not want to have this take place in their parish or diocese, so will make sure it never happens. Or they may allow one or two parishes to have Latin in their masses or a TLM (prior to the MP), but place them in areas so out of the way that no one knows about it or it’s too far away to travel.
• Not enough people in certain areas to help teach the chant or instruct Latin.
• No one willing to dish out the money to send their music ministers and other musicians, etc. out to courses/seminars in order to learn it and then bring it back to their parishes.
• There are parishes and people out there who would want to have chant and Latin, but they either don’t know how to organize or get the right people to help establish it.
• Naysayer attitude. They have already given up before even trying. They already think it is too hard and too hopeless to even try. They have an idea of how they think people will react to it, so they prefer to not even take a chance.
• The wrong people implementing it. There are people who are in charge of music ministries and actually don’t care too much for chant or Latin. So, they attempt to implement it without any love or care - not that they aren’t trying. I’m sure that some really do try. But their lack of love for it will feed through to the congregation. Also, many of them don’t have much training in chant and don’t know how to implement it.

They are a few of the reasons. Bottom line… if people want to see this be strong within their parishes, they need to take action themselves. AND most importantly, have the support from the pastor or the bishop. Without the support, it’s very difficult to make happen. Not saying it can’t be done, but a lot of extra hard work has to be employed. It’s happening in my parish and hopefully to all the parishes in our diocese. Our parish is the starting point. It doesn’t happen overnight, but we have the support from our Director of Worship for the diocese - and that’s a huge plus.

 

[JMJ_coder]

**Who’s “we,” Kemo Sabe? YOU are part of “we.”

What are YOU doing, JMJ Coder, to teach these things to others?**

Me?

1. I teach Latin in my men’s study group. For example, last year I taught them their response in Latin for the Novus Ordo Mass - and knowing that, they can pretty much join in a Tridentine Mass.
2. I sing in the choir.
3. I am always encouraging our choir director to use more chant and less ocp-esque music.
4. I have participated in our Parish Liturgy sub-committee that studied that our Liturgy was being celebrated according to the norms.
5. I attend Diocesan Liturgy training that is offered.

That’s a quick start of an overview of what I do in my Parish in this regard.

 

[Sarabande]

Me?

1. I teach Latin in my men’s study group. For example, last year I taught them their response in Latin for the Novus Ordo Mass - and knowing that, they can pretty much join in a Tridentine Mass.
2. I sing in the choir.
3. I am always encouraging our choir director to use more chant and less ocp-esque music.
4. I have participated in our Parish Liturgy sub-committee that studied that our Liturgy was being celebrated according to the norms.
5. I attend Diocesan Liturgy training that is offered.

That’s a quick start of an overview of what I do in my Parish in this regard.

Kudos to you!!!

Now that is someone who is not paying lip service.

 

[puzzleannie]

Hello,

It often comes up that we cannot use Gregorian Chant or Latin in the Liturgy because people are not trained to do this or don’t know it and would be lost, etc.

Then why are we not teaching them? Do we think they will spontaneously learn it on their own? Why are we not forming scholas to train cantors and choirs in Gregorian Chant and having Gregorian Chant and Latin taught in CCD (a children’s schola)? Why are we not teaching the congregations the simple chants that they should know, and the parts of the Mass in Latin that they should know?

because our parishes have no one even minimally qualified musically to cantor or provide music for Mass, let alone anyone qualified to teach chant.

actually our parish does know two chant Mass settings, taught by the pastor, but it has taken several years, but there are still problems because organist is not on the same page (or tempo or key).

 

[Cat]

because our parishes have no one even minimally qualified musically to cantor or provide music for Mass, let alone anyone qualified to teach chant.

actually our parish does know two chant Mass settings, taught by the pastor, but it has taken several years, but there are still problems because organist is not on the same page (or tempo or key).

This is it. You’ve nailed it.

**No teachers. ** We are not teaching because we are not teachers.

Not enough cantors. I hate to tell you how often I play for a Mass where there is no cantor or choir, just little ol’ me on the piano (I don’t cantor, BTW), and the priest does the work of the cantor.

Not enough people to make up a full choir (especially males, especially tenors, and especially people who actually read music).

Not enough instrumentalists. (I don’t think they’re used in the actual chant, but they are useful to help people read and learn the…well, I can’t call it melody, so I’ll call it “series of notes.” (Is the musical part of chant called “the line?”)

And of course, NOT ENOUGH TIME! Biggest hurdle of all.

The Catholic Churches are doing the Mozart Requiem in our city. ALL the parishes have been invited. What a privilege, to sing this piece! (I did it in college). I’m the rehearsal accompanist, so I get the fun of helping them to learn the piece, but I don’t have the nervousness of actually being in the performance. (I love accompanying!)

Do you know how many people, out of ALLLLLLL the Catholics…and the Protestants are invited, too! in our large city—have actually turned out to be in the choir?

A couple dozen. Only a few men, and one of those is one of the soloists and he’s only coming to practices to help the few men learn their part.

If you can only get a couple of dozen people, especially men, to show up to sing a gorgeous piece of music, with an orchestra even!–how on EARTH will you convince even a dozen people to show up to learn Gregorian chants!!!

I confess, I’m a complete cynic when it comes to Catholics learning Gregorian chant. I’ve only been a Catholic for four years, so I obviously don’t know everything. But in those four years, I have never heard anyone in real life long for chant or Latin in Mass. Only on these forums.

 

[SMHW]

…I have never heard anyone in real life long for chant or Latin in Mass. Only on these forums.

That is pretty much the case here for chant. I’ve often wondered just where all these people who long for chant are located.

I know one person who might like to facilitate chant but I’d have to say he would make a poor teacher. My choir director would make a fine teacher of chant but I don’t think he see’s much of an interest at our parish and he’s plenty busy enough that he doesn’t need another task.

 

[Sarabande]

That is pretty much the case here for chant. I’ve often wondered just where all these people who long for chant are located.

It may have to do with what part of the US (if we’re just focusing on the US) the people are from. In my area, I’m only 45 minutes away from a major metropolitan city, an hour to 1 1/2 from one north of me and 2 hours from one south of me. These are huge cities and I tend to run into more people who want this for their liturgies - including myself. For instance, my diocese is actively implementing it. Perhaps it’s because I’m in a more populated area that I have been exposed to more of it.

For instance, I could pretty much guarantee that if something like Cat described were to take place in my city, they would have a much better turn-out. Perhaps it is because I am in a much larger city. Perhaps it’s also because the arts and music scene might be on a larger scale and with the city having a fairly large Catholic population, there would be a number of Catholic musicians who love this kind of sacred music and really would want to see it thrive where it was originally intended. And perhaps it is also because we have a number of universities with music schools and a couple of well-known music conservatories with students who either want to have experience doing this music and/or idealistic Catholic students (musicians and otherwise) who also would want to see this music back in it’s original “homes”. My husband and I were two such idealists back in college and unfortunately at the time, there weren’t as many opportunities like that in the Catholic parishes, but now it’s slowly growing as we get to know more people.

And just recently, when an important priest in our diocese celebrated his 25th anniversary, his mass only had chanted propers and one hymn. They went to the parishes asking for volunteer choristers to help make up a choir to do this and they got a large choir eagerly wanting to do these chants. A few of the people from our parish choir went because they had some experience in chant as we do chant for our Latin NO masses twice a month. (Now we are chanting the propers for the mass, so it’s every week.)

I have colleagues and friends who are working hard in their own parishes with chant scholas and choirs that do polyphony and other sacred choral repertoire so that this can be achieved. And believe it or not - it’s a strange thing and I’ve been doing wedding masses for a number of years since college - I have actually been requested to chant the mass parts (in Latin - gasp!) for a few regular NO nuptial masses this year and these were requests in two different dioceses. (couples were around our age - late 20s/early 30s) When my husband and I were married 5 years ago, we were the only ones who we knew of that had Latin chant and polyphony at our NO nuptial mass. And I actually now have to start learning the propers for the funeral masses and nuptial masses as they are planning on implementing those in our parish.

I don’t want to make it seem as if the area I’m in is just all nice and perfect in terms of being a haven of chant and quality sacred music - it definitely is not. There are plenty of parishes which still don’t employ it - either because of lack of organization, lack of people involved in their own parish, lack of support, parishioners/priests not liking it due to taste or just not really knowing any better, etc. But because we probably have a slightly higer number of people like me who do want this, there is a better chance of running into parishes which are actually making an effort of doing this and your average Jack and Jill (like my husband and I) who are supporting it and doing what they can to help make it thrive.

I can totally believe that there are areas which aren’t as fortunte or unfortunate (depending on how one looks at things) that they do not have this kind of situation. So, I do believe it can depend on location.

P.S. We also have a Catholic foundation in our area which give Latin and Greek lessons, so that’s helpful. I don’t think that is offered everywhere. But I’m looking forward to seeing the music workshops they are planning to implement for the church musicians in terms of learning chant - especially trying to read the numes - that can be hard, and other things.

 

[bpbasilphx]

That’s a quick start of an overview of what I do in my Parish in this regard.

**Good! Then you are doing all you can do! **

 

[Cat]

It may have to do with what part of the US (if we’re just focusing on the US) the people are from. In my area, I’m only 45 minutes away from a major metropolitan city, an hour to 1 1/2 from one north of me and 2 hours from one south of me. These are huge cities and I tend to run into more people who want this for their liturgies - including myself. For instance, my diocese is actively implementing it. Perhaps it’s because I’m in a more populated area that I have been exposed to more of it.

In case anyone is wondering, my city’s pop. is 150,000. We’re 65 miles miles from Chicago, about the same distance from Madison and Milwaukee. We have one major state university within 35 miles of our city, and numerous small colleges. We also have the oldest continuously-running local music club in the United States in our city, and this club presents a season to the region that includes Grammy-winning classical and chamber musicians.

We just celebrated our diocescan centenial, and our bishop is considered one of the most conservative and orthodox bishops in the world.

A few decades ago, our churches, both Protestant and Catholic, joined together to drive the abortion mills OUT of the local hospitals. Now we have one abortion mill, in a private facility, and it is picketed daily. We also have an excellent pregnancy life care center run by Protestants and Catholics.

So I really don’t see that we are yahoo compared to Sarabande’s city. ??

BUT–we are less than 50 miles away from Willowcreek. If you don’t know what Willowcreek is, you should find out.

A spinoff of Willowcreek in our city attracts 10,000 people each Sunday to the worship services. It’s right down the street from my parish, which has 7000 people registered.

We also have a huge Assemblies of God church (5000 people on a Sunday) that holds a weekly youth meeting that attracts over a thousand teenagers to a rock band concert and lively speakers.

And we have a plethora of other thriving Protestant churches with rock bands, praise music, and dynamic speakers. The church I grew up in has the current President of Campus Crusade for Christ as a member, and one of the most sought-after authors and speakers in the evangelical world today was in my youth group at this church (Pastor John Ortberg).

So maybe the lack of interest in chant and Latin has something to do with the excellent competition from other non-Catholic churches. The music at the Willowcreek spinoff is not cheesy boomer rock, it’s darn good praise rock done by professionals.

Honestly, I think that the lack of interest in Latin is not liberalism. One of the churches in our city is 100 years old this year. Their opening Mass of their centennial celebration, which I am playing for, will feature the CONTEMPORARY CHOIR, and this is because the people WANT this. They do not want Latin, and since the church is ministered by the Franciscans, they won’t get Gregorian chant (and they don’t want it anyway). I have to admit, I was rather surprised by the bitterness with which many of the elderly people in that parish speak of the old Mass–one gentleman told me he came close to quitting the Church back when he was young because he couldn’t understand anything they were saying and he felt like it was a waste of time. He loves the contemporary music, as do most of the older ones in that parish. Hmm…

 

[Sarabande]

So I really don’t see that we are yahoo compared to Sarabande’s city. ??

Please know that I wasn’t trying to knock your area. I was only relating what is happening where I am, and by the way, I definitely wasn’t thinking about your city being yahoo, but I did know that your city was a smaller city from past posts.

It has nothing to do with whether an area is “yahoo” or “metropolitan”. It has more to do with the demographics in the area - population, culture, number of denominations, whether you’re on the East Coast, West Coast, South, Midwest, etc. Those factors can sometimes play a role in how a Catholic population is like.

For instance, in the neighboring diocese I will attend mass at a very small farming parish which is where my family’s mountain home is. The area is basically all woods, farms and dirt roads. The Franciscans have been ministering there for the summers and they do the simple Latin chants for the mass - yes Franciscans believe it or not! But we’re on the East Coast and the area is a fairly traditional Irish Catholic community who is more open to having chant. The Franciscans are from all over the place, but their home is located in the next state.

When I mentioned that I was surrounded by major metropolitan cities, I was trying to indicate that because of the size of the population and because of where I was located, there was just more people within various “groups” than what you would see in mid-sized cities or towns. It’s not to knock smaller cities or areas. We’ve got over 19 Million in the one city that I commute to weekly for my music lessons and rehearsals, over 1 million in the other which is basically where I’m from, around 650,000 and over 4 million in the other two cities not far from where I’m located. So of course, there will be a larger pool of various people of all different ideals, faiths, political views, etc.

There are at least 5 to 6 nationally and internationally well-known music conservatories in this area, plus very good music schools within the universities which turn out musicians who perform with the major orchestras, opera houses, etc. which many are also located in these cities. And with all of those music conservatories, there are Catholic musicians and music students out there who are in the area wanting to make this kind of sacred music thrive in these churches around here. I’m not saying this to do anything more, but to explain why, perhaps, chant, polyphony and high quality classical sacred music is being seen more in the parishes at least in these cities and in some of the suburban areas where I’m from. If these places weren’t here, or if there were just one or two comparable places like that, I’m sure the dynamic would be different. That’s all I’m trying to say.

Chicago probably has a similar situation, since they have over 2 million in their population. My sisters-in-law both live out there and my husband grew up in the suburbs of Chicago (he’s lived everywhere though), so I do know that the area out there is different from what it is here. I do know from going on websites of a few Chicago area churches just see what their music programs are like, they have a few excellent ones incorporating classical sacred music, chant, and other high quality music. BUT again, it is the area. With more people, you will have more of a variety of parishes incorporating different things.

And at the same time, it also depends where the church is located. My country, farming parish is more traditional in their music and liturgy, but a country parish in, let’s say, Ohio would have a different demographic of people and they might do more folk music, etc. in that case, you will probably see more parishes which use that rather than a “traditional” style of music. In larger areas, though, you might see more of mix depending on the part of the country you are from.

So maybe the lack of interest in chant and Latin has something to do with the excellent competition from other non-Catholic churches. The music at the Willowcreek spinoff is not cheesy boomer rock, it’s darn good praise rock done by professionals.

I don’t know your area, so I can’t say, but I do not believe that would be the case in my area. Because if that were the case, with the amount of many different churches “competing” out where I’m located, we wouldn’t have any of music that is starting to take place in our diocese and is being embraced by some parish communities.

At the same time, I also believe that one of the reasons for the lack of interest in Chant and Latin does have something to do with it not being “promoted” within mass and just the people who are in charge not doing anything to get it going.

Also, note, that no one here is talking about having just chant and Latin masses. The question was raised as to why it isn’t being taught and implemented.

 

[lak611]

My parish cannot even get people interested in joining the choir. Last year, the music director begged people to sing in the choir just for the Christmas Masses by promising them a good seat. The children’s choir went kaput, because there was a similar lack of interest. The choir is not an option for me, since I cannot carry a tune in a bucket. People in my parish who can sing are just not interested. If they will not even bother joining the choir to sing in English, they will not bother learning to sing in another language.

 

[Sarabande]

My parish cannot even get people interested in joining the choir. Last year, the music director begged people to sing in the choir just for the Christmas Masses by promising them a good seat. The children’s choir went kaput, because there was a similar lack of interest. The choir is not an option for me, since I cannot carry a tune in a bucket. People in my parish who can sing are just not interested. If they will not even bother joining the choir to sing in English, they will not bother learning to sing in another language.

Unfortunately - I suspect that this is a problem in some parishes and I can see the challenge in trying to teach and implement chant and Latin in those places.

Sometimes, you have to jump right in with both feet and start the chant during mass especially if you have no choir. That’s what we did at our parish when starting with the propers. Choir wasn’t starting yet, so the cantor and organist did it and still do during the masses without choir. But again, the music director needs the support of the pastor with that one. Otherwise, it will be much harder to implement.

 

[lak611]

Unfortunately - I suspect that this is a problem in some parishes and I can see the challenge in trying to teach and implement chant and Latin in those places.

Sometimes, you have to jump right in with both feet and start the chant during mass especially if you have no choir. That’s what we did at our parish when starting with the propers. Choir wasn’t starting yet, so the cantor and organist did it and still do during the masses without choir. But again, the music director needs the support of the pastor with that one. Otherwise, it will be much harder to implement.

Unfortunately, in my parish, it is just as difficult to find cantors. They are only available at two Masses. Also, my pastor and assistant cannot sing in any language, so I doubt they would be interested. The priests couldn’t do their parts.

 

[Brendan]

I’m not too sure how much cantors are really needed.

2 years ago, we moved into a parish that uses chant extensively.

When it’s time for the Gloria, for example, the priest begins with “Gloria in Excelsis Deo…” and the congregation picks it up from there.

There is no cantor involved.

The first time or two, a nearby parishioner pointed out that the words were in a supplement in the back of the hymnal. I don’t read music, least of all chant notation, but it did give me an idea of when to go up and when to go down.

After a few weeks, our family had it down pat.

Same with the Sanctus.

The Kyrie was easier, we just repeated what the Deacon or Celebrant chanted.

 

[Sarabande]

Unfortunately, in my parish, it is just as difficult to find cantors. They are only available at two Masses.

You don’t necessarily need cantors – especially for the very simple Latin Chants which should be implemented first before trying anything more difficult. That country, farming parish which I mentioned in my previous post – the one where the Franciscans actually did the sung mass parts in Latin chant – they never had a cantor. They just had a little organ with very humble ability which was actually extremely touching or no organ at all with a young, teenaged girl plunking out the melody line on the organ. When I’m up there for mass, I’ll help along with the singing, but the congregation likes to sing and chant.

Key thing, though, is that the previous pastor (bi-ritual priest and young – looked about in his late 30s/early 40s at the time) took the horse by the reigns and did it. He led with the chanting for the most part. The older ones who grew up with Vatican II remembered the chants. The younger ones learned it with each passing Sunday and they picked it up fairly well. When that pastor had to leave to the lamenting of all the parishes he was pastor for (One priest for three parishes and travelling far and wide to these parishes – he was burned out.) The new pastor was fine, but he was older and not as nimble as the young one. After about a year or so, the Franciscans took over during the summer and when I’ve been there, they led the chants in Latin and the people will sing, especially if they priest is singing out or one or two other people in the congregation will sing out. (They are more bold in their volume if there is an organ or if there is someone in the congregation with a strong voice.)

Also, my pastor and assistant cannot sing in any language, so I doubt they would be interested. The priests couldn’t do their parts.

Now, that is a problem. Those priests would need to want to learn the chants and to help implement it in order for it to really take hold. Although, you’d be surprised. We have priests who have actually gone and taken classes in doing the TLM and learning Latin. These are young men. So, they might be interested.