Why are we right?

[coolduude]

Why are we as Christians correct in believing that Jesus was really the Messiah? How do we know for certain that He was? I know some of the Bible prophecies from the OT but I mean the NT took place so long ago that it feels like their accouts lack credibility. Do you see what I’m saying?

I mean that for all we know (I’m playing devil’s advocate here) they are made up (or some of it is). Do we know for sure that the lineage presented in Matthew is to be believed? I find some of the ‘fullfilled’ (no offense with the quotes there) prophecies hard to believe.

How do we know He is for real?

Take no offense here I’m not trying to make anyone mad

coolduude

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Because of prophecies fulfilled and miraculous works of Jesus himself.

 

[uxordepp]

Hi Coolduude

H2O’s answer is good, but I’d like to add some…

The lineage we have for Jesus comes from Jewish texts. Judaism is (with the possible exception of Hinduism) the oldest major religion in the world. They give us the prophecies. Jesus gave us the fulfillment.

There are manuscript texts of Scripture and related texts going back now to the apostolic age which show that what has passed down to us is the same as what was written down during the first and second centuries AD.

And really, considering that the Roman persecutions started VERY early in Christian history, do you think people would go to their deaths for something that wasn’t true?

 

[NotWorthy]

One simply has to look at the lives of the Apostles after Jesus’ ascension.

Why did they willingly suffer severe torture for something that was a lie? I mean, by secular reasoning, the Apostles gained absolutely nothing for living the lie that they did. I’ve heard of cult leaders having this kind of influence over their followers, but in all cases, the cult leaders held a thumb over their followers, not allowing them to think for themselves. The Apostles, willingly followed Jesus, without this constant pressure to obey and follow… actually, it was quite the opposite for them.

Second, look at the conversion of the Jews. I have no way of verifying this (maybe someone else can), but I recall Fr. Robert Altier (in an MP3 series I have) stating that fully 2/3 of Judaism was Catholic by the end of the 1st Century… I think he was speaking of Jews in the Roman Empire, not a small group of people, mind you.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Hi Coolduude

H2O’s answer is good, but I’d like to add some…

The lineage we have for Jesus comes from Jewish texts. Judaism is (with the possible exception of Hinduism) the oldest major religion in the world. They give us the prophecies. Jesus gave us the fulfillment.

There are manuscript texts of Scripture and related texts going back now to the apostolic age which show that what has passed down to us is the same as what was written down during the first and second centuries AD.

And really, considering that the Roman persecutions started VERY early in Christian history, do you think people would go to their deaths for something that wasn’t true?

People in Japan and Germany during World War II did. People who participated in the Bolshevik Revolution did too. All down through history there have been groups of people who willingly went to their deaths for untrue things. Even people in our own country during the 1860s went to war and to their deaths in support of slavery. What about this?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Why are we as Christians correct in believing that Jesus was really the Messiah? How do we know for certain that He was? I know some of the Bible prophecies from the OT but I mean the NT took place so long ago that it feels like their accouts lack credibility. Do you see what I’m saying?

I mean that for all we know (I’m playing devil’s advocate here) they are made up (or some of it is). Do we know for sure that the lineage presented in Matthew is to be believed? I find some of the ‘fullfilled’ (no offense with the quotes there) prophecies hard to believe.

How do we know He is for real?

Take no offense here I’m not trying to make anyone mad

coolduude

look up peter stoner, and josh macdowell. great mathematical work on the issue.

the very fact that they are so hard to believe, but attested too by the people present is a good indication that they are true. after all, the people at the time, the first martyrs, and the Apostles werent stupid, if they had the faintest doubt, it didnt show, they spent their whole lives suffering, only to be martyred.

thats not the actions of people who made up stories, or knew they were made up.

 

[NotWorthy]

People in Japan and Germany during World War II did. People who participated in the Bolshevik Revolution did too. All down through history there have been groups of people who willingly went to their deaths for untrue things. Even people in our own country during the 1860s went to war and to their deaths in support of slavery. What about this?

At what gain? They felt they were fighting for valid reasons.

If Jesus’ death and Resurrection was a hoax, what man would die to perpetuate that hoax?

 

[Timbothefiveth]

People in Japan and Germany during World War II did. People who participated in the Bolshevik Revolution did too. All down through history there have been groups of people who willingly went to their deaths for untrue things. Even people in our own country during the 1860s went to war and to their deaths in support of slavery. What about this?

The difference is that they did not know it was untrue. The apostles would truly know if it was true or not. They would have seen Jesus risen from the dead, and seen him ascend in to Heaven.

 

[Mark77]

**We are not “right.”

Only God is “right”, God is Perfect Truth & Love. He has revealed Himself to us & we are accept the grace given to all to believe. We have Faith!
**
"We begin our profession of faith by saying: “I believe” or “We believe”. Before expounding the Church’s faith, as confessed in the Creed, celebrated in the liturgy and lived in observance of God’s commandments and in prayer, we must first ask what “to believe” means. Faith is man’s response to God, who reveals himself and gives himself to man, at the same time bringing man a superabundant light as he searches for the ultimate meaning of his life." (CCC 26)

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[patg]

Why are we as Christians correct in believing that Jesus was really the Messiah? How do we know for certain that He was? I know some of the Bible prophecies from the OT but I mean the NT took place so long ago that it feels like their accouts lack credibility. Do you see what I’m saying?

I mean that for all we know (I’m playing devil’s advocate here) they are made up (or some of it is). Do we know for sure that the lineage presented in Matthew is to be believed? I find some of the ‘fullfilled’ (no offense with the quotes there) prophecies hard to believe.

How do we know He is for real?

Take no offense here I’m not trying to make anyone mad

coolduude

There is no way to “know” it is true - it is purely a matter of faith. There is no evidence of the significant events of the gospels outside of the gospels themselves and no way to know that they weren’t written to fulfill prophecies which were very general or vague in the first place.

If there was some way to prove the resurrection, for example, this incredible event would be mentioned in every history text - no historian could possibly leave it out.

 

[NotWorthy]

There is no way to “know” it is true - it is purely a matter of faith. There is no evidence of the significant events of the gospels outside of the gospels themselves and no way to know that they weren’t written to fulfill prophecies which were very general or vague in the first place.

If there was some way to prove the resurrection, for example, this incredible event would be mentioned in every history text - no historian could possibly leave it out.

If someone is willing to die for what they believe in, they I would imagine that they know they are right.

Well… at least they THINK they know that they are right.

 

[patg]

If someone is willing to die for what they believe in, they I would imagine that they know they are right.

Well… at least they THINK they know that they are right.

I don’t think that is all that strong of a reason - look at all the people who kill themselves because space aliens are coming to pick up their souls, or all those who drank the Kool-aid for a crazy leader, or all those who strap bombs to their bodies for the glory of their god…

Yes, they do THINK they are right!

 

[grace_singh]

well, Jesus fulfils a number of Messianic prophecies set forth in the Hebrew Scriptures.

He was born in Bethlehem as per Micah 5:2-4, was a descent of David as per Jeremiah 23:5-6, was ridiculed and rejected by and suffered for His people as per Isaiah 53, and most importantly He fulfilled these prophecies and identified Himself as the Messiah (John 4:25-26).

He also promised to come back, and fulfil the rest of the prophecies, which the vast majority of Jews still wait to see fulfilled.

there are numerous other prophecies i could refer to, but these come to mind.

 

[NotWorthy]

I don’t think that is all that strong of a reason - look at all the people who kill themselves because space aliens are coming to pick up their souls, or all those who drank the Kool-aid for a crazy leader, or all those who strap bombs to their bodies for the glory of their god…

Yes, they do THINK they are right!

Yes, but have you seen such a coordinated willingness to die when the strong pressure from a charismatic leader has been gone for decades? I’m not talking about the isolated UFO wacko, or the young man who is sent out to blow himself up so that his family is taken care of.

I’m talking about 12 out of 13 guys, each dying by different unnatural means, going down there own paths to that death! And all of them hoping to gain nothing (by secular measures) out of their early deaths.

 

[crazzeto]

Well let’s start with this,

Can you make a logically coherent argument advocating the idea that Joseph, Mary, The Apostles and Christ really did just make it all up?

 

[patg]

I’m talking about 12 out of 13 guys, each dying by different unnatural means, going down there own paths to that death! And all of them hoping to gain nothing (by secular measures) out of their early deaths.

I’m talking about hundreds of believers, each dying by unnatural means (blowing themselves up), going down there own paths to that death! And all of them hoping to gain nothing (by secular measures) out of their early deaths (unless you count the 72 virgins). We believe they are all wrong and yet most are doing it out of their faith in a long dead charismatic leader. And maybe some do it to support their families.

As for the apostles - we can only assume, mostly from legend and tradition, that at least some of them died because they preached an unpopular religion that was seen to be in opposition to the establishment. We don’t really know the details.

 

[dnu]

I would say the same for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Joseph Smith died knowing full well his book was a hoax. Also, if one open a trusty ole Book of Mormon, one will find the “Testimony of the 3 witnesses” and the “Testimony of the 8 witnesses” all 11 of which claimed to see the gold plates the BOM was written on. None of these 11 retracted their statements and died holding that the BOM was true. Everyone on here is probably aware of how many people died throughout history for the Mormon Church and how active it is even today with its missionary programs.

The martyr argument is not very strong.

 

[michaeldaniels]

One thing…the martyrs…if Peter, Paul, Stephen and all of them were willing to die for the faith we have today, handed down from them, then it is worthy of our belief…the Saints/Martyrs wouldn’t have willingly died for a lie.

 

[crazzeto]

One thing…the martyrs…if Peter, Paul, Stephen and all of them were willing to die for the faith we have today, handed down from them, then it is worthy of our belief…the Saints/Martyrs wouldn’t have willingly died for a lie.

Of these, Paul is the most compelling. Scripture tells us he was a Pharasies Pharasie, he was Zelouse for God and he was totally convinced that Christ was an Apostate and Blashemer.

So why did he convert, and how did it happen so quickly? He knew very well what converts got, he was on his way to capture and kill Christians when it happend. There’s no rational argument one can make, for St. Paul’s conversion.

 

[LegoGE1947]

There is no way to “know” it is true - it is purely a matter of faith. There is no evidence of the significant events of the gospels outside of the gospels themselves and no way to know that they weren’t written to fulfill prophecies which were very general or vague in the first place.

If there was some way to prove the resurrection, for example, this incredible event would be mentioned in every history text - no historian could possibly leave it out.

It is similar to Evangelicals coming up to a person and asking"Do you ‘know’ you are saved?" Being saved is a matter of faith essentially but works definitely have their place whether you are doing “good” works or “bad” works and if good works the motive behind them. Being creatures with intellect and free will there is no way one can know for sure that one will be saved at the end of one’s life–as I said at the beginning it is a matter of faith.