Why are we so averse to socialism?

[estesbob]

One notes with amusement the anti-socialist rhetoric on this Forum in the same week the Vatican announced that Dorothy Day has reached the second stage in her road to beatification.

Has the vatican rescinded the encyclicals that categorically condemn socialism?

 

[Tomdstone]

Has the vatican rescinded the encyclicals that categorically condemn socialism?

It seems that many Catholic theologians have done so. Possibly the condemnation was not categorical, but only applied to totalitarian socialism and not to democratic socialism.
Although some of these are quotes before they were elevated to the papacy, nevertheless we read:
Pope John Paul II: “The church is aware that the bourgeois mentality and capitalism as a whole, with its materialist spirit, acutely contradict the Gospel.”
Pope Benedict XVI wrote: “Back to Europe. A third model was added to the two models of the 19th century: socialism. Socialism took two main paths — the democratic and the totalitarian one. Democratic socialism became a healthy counterbalance to radically liberal positions in both existing models. It enriched and corrected them. It proved itself even when religious confessions took over… In many ways, democratic socialism stands and stood close to the Catholic social teachings. It in any case contributed a substantial amount to the education of social conscience.”
Pope Francis wrote: “What the Church criticizes is the spirit that capitalism has encouraged, utilizing capital to subject and oppress man.”
“Capitalism has been the cause of many sufferings of injustice and fratricidal fights.”
“The capitalist system also has its own spiritual perversion: to tame religion. It tames religion so that it does not bother Capitalism too much; it brings it down to worldly terms. It gives it a certain transcendence, but only a little bit… The capitalist system in turn tolerates a kind of tamed transcendence that manifests in a worldly spirit. For religious people, the act of adoring God means to submit to His will, to His justice, to His law, and to His prophetic inspiration. On the other hand, for the worldly who manipulate religion, it is not too hot or too cold. Something like: “Behave yourself, do some crooked things, but not too many.” There would be good manners and bad customs: a civilization of consumerism, of hedonism, of political arrangements between the powers or political sectors, the terrain of money. All are manifestations of worldliness.”

 

[Peccavi]

Has the vatican rescinded the encyclicals that categorically condemn socialism?

Actions often speak louder than words ( and encyclicals which are not binding on Catholics since they are not ex cathedra )

 

[LethalMouse]

Do you have any evidence that it is entire the homeless man’s fault for being homeless? I don’t care how undergoing economic adversity would make you a better person. I doubt you think the wealthy are moral inferior because they haven’t experience such conditions. But who cares? The question for me is whether I would have the courage to volunteer and fly an Il-2 (as a woman) and attack German tanks and strong points. Am I willing to risk death for that? Am I willing to die to do what is necessary?

books.google.com/books?id=azlqmWgWJeQC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=homelessness+east+germany

First the ideologues cannot note that I did not say all. That is why I still help, because soneone somewhere is having a bad time.

Have you ever given a poor person food and watch them discard it because it was inconvenient? I have seen it many times.

He says in an earlier post “it is not about things” but when they rebuy stuff a thousand tines because they dont give a f about it… thare is their house money.

Sure some people do need help and I will give it.

Plus you seem to negate that as a Christian we are called to act out of love and not coercion. That dont count.

Jesus didn’t say “have ceasar collect more money and be charitable for you so you can kick back and chill”

That isnt how it works

You kniw on another thread I was trying to reason out sin… anyway the answer I got made me understand finally how the devil in revelation sways the majority of the world to go against God. Think about it, the bible says more people will be horrible than good… welcome to himan existence… and note how horrible people are.

 

[Theo520]

Sounds like you are saying when the East German sheep were well behaved, they had all their needs met. I expect many Slave Plantations worked in a similar fashion - if you acted as expected and didn’t agitate, you were taken care of.

The problem is the East German Govt was more of an exception for communist countries.

Do you have any evidence that it is entire the homeless man’s fault for being homeless? I don’t care how undergoing economic adversity would make you a better person. I doubt you think the wealthy are moral inferior because they haven’t experience such conditions. But who cares? The question for me is whether I would have the courage to volunteer and fly an Il-2 (as a woman) and attack German tanks and strong points. Am I willing to risk death for that? Am I willing to die to do what is necessary?

Would these people would have been homeless in East Germany? You don’t know anything about actual socialism except what you think it is due to anti-communist propaganda.

There is a reason for Ostalgie. It is not that East Germany was perfect, but it certainly wasn’t the abject hellhole that Western propaganda portrayed it to be. It generally treated people with dignity if they were not agitators. It was a surprising humane system.

books.google.com/books?id=azlqmWgWJeQC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=homelessness+east+germany

 

[Latias]

Sounds like you are saying when the East German sheep were well behaved, they had all their needs met. I expect many Slave Plantations worked in a similar fashion - if you acted as expected and didn’t agitate, you were taken care of.

The problem is the East German Govt was more of an exception for communist countries.

It is a rather glib comparison to slavery. That is true in many other systems; most countries, even those espousing freedom, have sheep. Most people believe the mainstream narrative of history and current events propagated through the media and education system and pay taxes.

I didn’t even post a favorable account of East Germany; just one that said that one could live a satisfactory life there and it wasn’t a hellhole. It also notes that there is an enervating resignation within the capitalist political economy. But unlike in current Germany, homelessness was a rare phenomenon in East Germany.

Surprisingly for Romania, many think life was better in Ceausescu’s time. I wouldn’t even defend Ceausescu, except for saying that he was unjustly murdered. If people would say that life was better under Ceausescu, it says something about capitalism.

 

[anon67074017]

It seems that many Catholic theologians have done so. Possibly the condemnation was not categorical, but only applied to totalitarian socialism and not to democratic socialism.
Although some of these are quotes before they were elevated to the papacy, nevertheless we read:
Pope John Paul II: “The church is aware that the bourgeois mentality and capitalism as a whole, with its materialist spirit, acutely contradict the Gospel.”
Pope Benedict XVI wrote: “Back to Europe. A third model was added to the two models of the 19th century: socialism. Socialism took two main paths — the democratic and the totalitarian one. Democratic socialism became a healthy counterbalance to radically liberal positions in both existing models. It enriched and corrected them. It proved itself even when religious confessions took over… In many ways, democratic socialism stands and stood close to the Catholic social teachings. It in any case contributed a substantial amount to the education of social conscience.”
Pope Francis wrote: “What the Church criticizes is the spirit that capitalism has encouraged, utilizing capital to subject and oppress man.”
“Capitalism has been the cause of many sufferings of injustice and fratricidal fights.”
“The capitalist system also has its own spiritual perversion: to tame religion. It tames religion so that it does not bother Capitalism too much; it brings it down to worldly terms. It gives it a certain transcendence, but only a little bit… The capitalist system in turn tolerates a kind of tamed transcendence that manifests in a worldly spirit. For religious people, the act of adoring God means to submit to His will, to His justice, to His law, and to His prophetic inspiration. On the other hand, for the worldly who manipulate religion, it is not too hot or too cold. Something like: “Behave yourself, do some crooked things, but not too many.” There would be good manners and bad customs: a civilization of consumerism, of hedonism, of political arrangements between the powers or political sectors, the terrain of money. All are manifestations of worldliness.”

The encyclicals condemn socialism in general. Democratic socialism is a part of socialism in general.