Why are we (usually) reasonable?!

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Science is the systematic study of nature. There you go, it just explained itself.
?
“nature” needs to be defined. According to that statement it seems to be equated with “everything”. Precisely how does it explain itself?
If you want more then please have a little patience, science is explaining more and more every day.
Blind faith in the power of science to explain everything needs rational justification.
Unlike philosophers who just add confusion.
Detrimental remarks about philosophers certainly apply to the person who makes them because they reveal ignorance of what philosophy is… and make one wonder why that person frequents a philosophy forum…
 
Most scientists and philosophers are not materialists.
Irrelevant.
The vast majority of people in the world have a religion and are not materialists who attribute the mind to purposeless atomic particles. It is a simplistic hypothesis because it implies we are machines whose activity is determined by physical events.
I said that “the mind arising from the body alone is the simplest workable hypothesis and is the one in use all around the world”. What on earth has that got to do with atomic particles.

What is the body composed of?
What on earth has it got to do with machines?
Is the body a biological machine or not?
Now again, it’s a simple statement of fact that the mind arising from the body alone is the simplest workable hypothesis and is the one in use all around the world.
The vast majority of people in the world **do not believe **the mind arises from the body alone. They believe **they **control their mind and body.
 
If everything is composed of atomic particles persons are not indivisible entities but collections of things or in Hume’s words “bundles of perceptions”.
Irrelevant.
If everything is composed solely of atomic particles persons are not indivisible entities but sets of things - unless you can explain **how **they constitute an integrated whole and are **responsible **for their activity. Exactly where is their control-centre located?
Sounds like Hume failed that test. Still, I expect his mother loved him just the same.
Sounds like you haven’t read anything by Hume who is generally regarded as an outstanding British philosopher who has substantially influenced modern thought on our knowledge of reality.
 
No response, I think this got lost along the way. Take the following hypotheses:

(a) The natural world exists.
(b) The natural world and a deity exist.
(c) The natural world and a deity exist, and the deity is the Christian God.

As you say later, (a) is a necessary assumption. It’s also a subset of (b) and (c), which involve additional assumptions.
There is only one person who is lost:
A. It is a mistake to begin with “the natural world”. Our primary data are our thoughts, feelings and perceptions.
Subsequently it was explained that:
The sole means by which we have knowledge of the physical world is by inferences from what we perceive with our senses. The only direct knowledge we have is of our thoughts, feelings, hopes, fears, desires, goals, values, principles and decisions. We do not know and will never know material objects directly
There is no gold standard on which knowledge is based - apart from our private experiences. We are all without exception in “the egocentric predicament”. It is impossible to “get outside our mind”. In The Two Dogmas of Empiricism Quine, an atheist who had no vested interest in putting interior knowledge before everything else, does precisely that. **He describes everything except subjective experience as “posits” **- including material objects…
 
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             **Non sequitur. Rational beings on  other planets believe in their existence, the existence of persons and  things, the power of reason, the intelligibility of the universe and the  principle of cause and effect. Otherwise the success of science is an  illusion!**
.

So is your morality that if it feels good then it must be good?
The issue is **not **morality but our knowledge of the physical world.
Most people grasp at a young age that our **thoughts, feelings and perceptions **
are subjective and can’t be relied on. A rite of passage is realizing Father Christmas may not be real. Those who as adults can’t make the distinction are not necessarily in the best of mental health.Adults can’t make the distinction between **valid and invalid **subjective thoughts, feelings and perceptions are certainly not in the best of mental health! The fact remains that the sole means by which we have knowledge of the physical world is by **inference **from what we perceive with our senses. The only direct knowledge we have is of our thoughts, feelings, hopes, fears, desires, goals, values, principles and decisions. We do not, cannot and will never know material objects directly.
A hypothesis does not cease to be a hypothesis because it is “irrational”. Whether we regard a hypothesis as irrational depends on our presuppositions, i.e. our hypotheses. There is no gold standard on which knowledge is based - apart from our private experiences. We are all without exception in “the egocentric predicament”. It is impossible to “get outside our mind”. In The Two Dogmas of Empiricism Quine, an atheist who had no vested interest in putting interior knowledge before everything else, does precisely that. He describes everything except subjective experience as “posits” - including material objects…

Well yes we can only see through human eyes but that’s not an excuse that anything goes, that if it feels good then it must be good.
The issue is not whether we feel good but how we **know **anything beyond our mind.
In a court of law you cannot evade being found guilty with the plea that you are “a complex being” with a mind derived from a brain and we’re not usually reasonable being most of the time on autopilot, prone to many reasoning errors and having “a realm of ignorance”.

Agreed. But I still have no idea what you’re on about. If you appear in court you’ll soon find out!
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I’m still at a loss to understand why you exhibit such antipathy to the idea that minds are indivisible entitles that have not arisen from mindless particles. Why should they not be fundamental elements of reality?
Now we seem to be getting somewhere. There’s a difference between being an indivisible entity - in the sense of consisting of only one part or one substance - and being an indivisible entity because it would be impossible to function as such an entity if the parts were not all in place.

What makes you suppose that mind is a substance in and of itself, an essential element of reality? Based upon what we can discern and experience of minds, they are subject to variation and damage - if a living brain is damaged, the mind exhibited by that brain also changes. That is just one piece of evidence that minds are not fundamental, monistic, elementary substances. If you ingest certain chemicals, your mind changes. When a person dies, their mind, for all intents and purposes, disappears from the world.

Furthermore, there is no evidence of the presence of mind in the absence of complex brains. All of this suggests that minds are built up from more fundamental aspects of reality, and are not, themselves, elementary.
 
?
“nature” needs to be defined. According to that statement it seems to be equated with “everything”. Precisely how does it explain itself?
“Nature” is defined in the dictionary. If you’re not talking about dictionary definitions then I don’t understand what you mean by “science can’t explain itself”. I’ve never seen it on the news as a significant issue. What do you mean and why should I be concerned?
Blind faith in the power of science to explain everything needs rational justification.
Whenever it has been employed, the scientific method has always successfully provided explanatory power.
Detrimental remarks about philosophers certainly apply to the person who makes them because they reveal ignorance of what philosophy is… and make one wonder why that person frequents a philosophy forum…
Philosophers disagree on anything and everything, their only contribution is to increase the cacophony of Babel. Some have a sense of humor, others don’t. That’s my philosophy.
 
The vast majority of people in the world have a religion, are not materialists who derive the mind from purposeless atomic particles and do not believe we are machines whose functioning is programmed by physical events.
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                             It's fair to say, also, that the vast majority of people in the  world do not have a thorough-going scientific education...The lack of a scientific education diminishes the probability that people have insight into **reality as a whole** only for a materialist who believes **everyone**  can be explained in terms of purposeless particles. It is a typically  snobbish and elitist view that underrates the intuition and intelligence  of the vast majority of human beings.

No response.
… and have a religion primarily because their parents have a religion, within the tenets of which they raised their children.
A genetic fallacy…

No response.
It is far less demanding, far less confronting and far more superficially comforting to suppose that there is nothing else but **oneself **to decide what is true, good, right and just.
No response.
Minds are not simple, monistic entities, but complex, many-faceted structures - what’s so difficult about accepting that they result from the interactions of simpler entities?
That argument would not satisfy a judge and jury who regard you as one person who is uniquely responsible for your decisions and actions - when you think and behave **rationally **of course. To which particular facet of your structure do you attribute your beliefs, values, goals, values, choices, ideals, decisions and conclusions? How do you derive **unity **from multiplicity?

No answers to these questions…
Your atomistic view of reality fails to correspond to the way you think and live. Modern medicine regards a person as an integrated whole rather than a collection of physical organs that have somehow magically succeeded in appearing, developing and co-ordinating their activity to such an extent that they are capable of not only being aware of themselves but also controlling themselves. Obviously miracles never cease…
No response.
There’s a difference between being an indivisible entity - in the sense of consisting of only one part or one substance - and being an indivisible entity because it would be impossible to function as such an entity if the parts were not all in place.
The use of the term “parts” reveals a total inability to conceive of any type of reality but matter. Your analytical approach pervades all your thinking yet you cannot explain synthesis. Precisely how are entities formed? What unites and integrates the so-called “parts” of a person? (Please answer the questions in this and the previous post.)
What makes you suppose that mind is a substance in and of itself, an essential element of reality?
“substance” is a term best avoided because it introduces the misleading spatial dimension “sub”. I prefer the neutral term “entity”. There is overwhelming evidence that a person is an essentially real and indivisible in every respect: legal, moral, social, political, aesthetic, economic and philosophical. Do you ever refer to the “parts” of a** person**? Do you ever equate “you” with “your body” when you are talking to people? Do you belong to your body or does your body belong to you? What are “you” exactly? What is the mind in your opinion?
Based upon what we can discern and experience of minds, they are subject to variation and damage - if a living brain is damaged, the mind exhibited by that brain also changes.
A false deduction. The mind is intangible and cannot be equated with the brain unless it is reduced to electrical impulses - which you emphatically deny is the case. You cannot have it both ways. Which is it to be? :confused:

Brain damage prevents and distorts the ability to communicate, express and control the brain and the rest of the body. It does not destroy the mind. If it did a person would lose the right to life. Do you believe we are justified in killing everyone who is seriously brain damaged? How could you ever **know **the mind no longer exists? It is merely a supposition for which there is no evidence whatsoever.
That is just one piece of evidence that minds are not fundamental, monistic, elementary substances. If you ingest certain chemicals, your mind changes. When a person dies, their mind, for all intents and purposes, disappears from the world.
A ludicrous argument based on the unverifiable, unfalsifiable and unrealistic assumption that matter alone is the prime and pre-eminent reality.
Furthermore, there is no evidence of the presence of mind in the absence of complex brains. All of this suggests that minds are built up from more fundamental aspects of reality, and are not, themselves, elementary.
  1. How are they “built up”?
  2. Do you believe only in what you can see, hear, taste, smell and touch?
  3. If so why?
What makes you suppose atomic particles are more fundamental than everything else? Ironically your supposition presupposes - and relies upon - the very reality you are determined to eliminate from your closed scheme of things. It demonstrates your parochial** state of mind** and suggests a very **elementary **stage of intellectual development. To underestimate the power of the mind in favour of inanimate objects is the fatal flaw in your hypothesis and quite impossible to implement in practice…
 
Most scientists and philosophers are not materialists.
inocente;10157862:
Fine, if materialists are such a small minority then I see no reason why we should care what they think or what you think they think.
tonyrey;10158223:
Irrelevant.
If materialists are a minority then why would we care what they say, any more than the bunch of guys who yesterday thought the world would end in a Mayan apocalypse?
What is the body composed of?
Are you on about atoms again? Atoms won’t form part of the explanation, every neuron is made of trillions of the critters. You can’t explain the moon, a rose, an elephant just by saying they’re made of atoms, it has no explanatory value. So why this obsession with atoms? All matter is made of atoms, so what? :confused:
Is the body a biological machine or not?
Of course not, what on earth gave you that idea? :confused:
*The vast majority of people in the world **do not believe ***the mind arises from the body alone. They believe **they **control their mind and body.
If that’s what the vast majority of people believe then materialists must logically be a tiny minority, so you need never mention them again. :cool:

And only a born-again relativist would argue that what the majority believe must be true.

And again, the mind arising from the body alone is the simplest workable hypothesis and is the one in use all around the world, no point griping to me.
 
Most of us were able by a young age to grasp the concept that reality exists on more than one level.
tonyrey;10158738:
Irrelevant.
If everything is composed solely
of atomic particles persons are not indivisible entities but sets of things - unless you can explain **how **they constitute an integrated whole and are **responsible **for their activity. Exactly where is their control-centre located?
What? :eek: Can you really not see what someone means when they say a narrative works on more than one level? The concept that reality exists on more than one level is so fundamental, and so commonly understood, that I’d be amazed if you can’t see it. As a first step, try to lose that somewhat exotic notion of an homunculus control center.
Sounds like you haven’t read anything by Hume who is generally regarded as an outstanding British philosopher who has substantially influenced modern thought on our knowledge of reality.
Perhaps he didn’t mean what you think then. 🤷
 
Rational beings on other planets believe in their existence, the existence of persons and things, the power of reason, the intelligibility of the universe and the principle of cause and effect. Otherwise the success of science is an illusion!
inocente;10158000:
Non sequitur.
tonyrey;10158868:
You still need to explain how rational
beings need not believe in their existence, the existence of persons and things, the power of reason, the intelligibility of the universe and the principle of cause and effect… Any ideas?
Are these hypothetical aliens a collective intelligence without any notion of personhood? Do they see the same narrow band of light frequencies as us? Do they arbitrarily divide up the world into things like we do and end up with the same categories as us?

Too many imponderables. Aliens will be alien.
The issue is **not **morality but our knowledge of the physical world.
It’s the same. If you say that your thoughts and feelings are primary, then logically it must follow that you believe what feels good is morally good. If you do not believe what feels good is morally good then you cannot logically claim that your thoughts and feelings are primary.
*Adults can’t make the distinction between **valid and invalid ***subjective thoughts, feelings and perceptions are certainly not in the best of mental health! The fact remains that the sole means by which we have knowledge of the physical world is by **inference **from what we perceive with our senses. The only direct knowledge we have is of our thoughts, feelings, hopes, fears, desires, goals, values, principles and decisions. We do not, cannot and will never know material objects directly.
Correct, which is why we must respect data and data collection, and not confuse our interpretation of reality for reality itself, which imho is a mistake made by many philosophers of the mind.
The issue is not whether we feel good but how we **know **anything beyond our mind.
Yes, but there’s no need for metaphysical navel gazing, if I stub my toe then something else exists, QED.
If you appear in court you’ll soon find out!
Have done, giving evidence. Courts are interested in evidence. Look at the number of times they call on scientists to explain forensic evidence. Do they ever call on philosophers to explain metaphysical speculations? Possibly not, given how little that has to do with the real world. 🙂
 
A neuron is made of trillions of the critters. You can’t explain the moon, a rose, an elephant just by saying they’re made of atoms, it has no explanatory value.
**How **do you explain the existence of the moon, rose and elephant?
 
You still need to explain how rational
Please answer the question:

Do you believe rational aliens do not believe in their existence, the existence of persons and things, the power of reason, the intelligibility of the universe and the principle of cause and effect?
The issue is **not **
*morality but our knowledge of the physical world.

It’s the same. If you say that your thoughts and feelings are primary, then logically it must follow that you believe what feels good is morally good. If you do not believe what feels good is morally good then you cannot logically claim that your thoughts and feelings are primary.

False deduction.Thoughts are** not **the same as feelings.
Adults can’t make the distinction between **valid and invalid **
subjective thoughts, feelings and perceptions are certainly not in the best of mental health! The fact remains that the sole means by which we have knowledge of the physical world is by **inference **from what we perceive with our senses. The only direct knowledge we have is of our thoughts, feelings, hopes, fears, desires, goals, values, principles and decisions. We do not, cannot and will never know material objects directly.Correct, which is why we must respect data and data collection, and not confuse our interpretation of reality for reality itself, which imho is a mistake made by many philosophers of the mind.

Please cite texts in which philosophers make that mistake.
  1. Do you deny that the sole means by which we have knowledge of the physical world is by **inference **from what we perceive with our senses?
  2. If so how else do we have knowledge of the physical world?
 
**How **do you explain the existence of the moon, rose and elephant?
How about I ignore this post and you reply to my post #149 again, this time without ignoring my questions and without answering a question with a question?

Come on old bean, play cricket, what what, toot toot, etc, etc.
 
The concept that reality exists on more than one level is so fundamental, and so commonly understood, that I’d be amazed if you can’t see it.
tonyrey;10161434:
Please specify the levels of existence.
Yikes, you mean you really can’t see it?

I’m not good at numerology but shall we say seven in science, as that’s roughly the capacity of our short term memory, so any more levels would get confusing. But gosh, golly and golly gosh, do Leos Janacek’s Glagolitic Mass and Amy Winehouse’s Rehab speak to the same or different levels of existence?

Jeeps and jiminy cricket, let’s say the answer is the sound of one hand clapping.
 
Are these hypothetical aliens a collective intelligence without any notion of personhood? Do they see the same narrow band of light frequencies as us? Do they arbitrarily divide up the world into things like we do and end up with the same categories as us?

Too many imponderables. Aliens will be alien.
tonyrey;10161443:
Please answer the question:

Do you believe rational
aliens do not believe in their existence, the existence of persons and things, the power of reason, the intelligibility of the universe and the principle of cause and effect?
The answer is right there in my post #151, as highlighted above.
If you say that your thoughts and feelings are primary, then logically it must follow that you believe what feels good is morally good. If you do not believe what feels good is morally good then you cannot logically claim that your thoughts and feelings are primary.
tonyrey;10161443:
False deduction.Thoughts are** not **
the same as feelings.
That why I said both in my post #151, as highlighted above. So no, it’s not a false deduction at all.
Please cite texts in which philosophers make that mistake.
I’ve just had to waste a LOT of time doing multi-layer quotes to correct your misrepresentations of my post #151, so no, no way am I in a mood to spend time doing that.
Adults can’t make the distinction between **valid and invalid **subjective thoughts, feelings and perceptions are certainly not in the best of mental health! The fact remains that the sole means by which we have knowledge of the physical world is by **inference **from what we perceive with our senses. The only direct knowledge we have is of our thoughts, feelings, hopes, fears, desires, goals, values, principles and decisions. We do not, cannot and will never know material objects directly.

inocente;10161389 said:
, which is why we must respect data and data collection, and not confuse our interpretation of reality for reality itself, which imho is a mistake made by many philosophers of the mind.
  1. Do you deny that the sole means by which we have knowledge of the physical world is by **inference **
from what we perceive with our senses?
  1. If so how else do we have knowledge of the physical world?

Yet again my answer is right there in my post #151, yet again as highlighted above.
 
I’m not good at numerology but shall we say seven in science, as that’s roughly the capacity of our short term memory, so any more levels would get confusing.
Can you explain what determines the different levels of existence or is it an imponderable?
 
inocente;10162207:
The acid test of rationality is whether beings can **understand **
logical principles, **communicate **with others, **discover **natural laws and invent methods of communication. Have you no idea whether aliens may be to able to achieve these goals? Do you believe SETI is a total waste of time and energy?

None of these things require the primacy of mind, however - only the ability of minds to draw connections between more fundamental realities.
Do you believe morality is based primarily
on feeling? Are a criminal’s feelings as morally valid as anyone else’s?

A criminal’s feelings are as factually valid as anyone else’s - whether they are morally valid or not depends upon their relationship to the well-being of others - and the criminal him/herself - and also upon how you balance the rights of individuals; for example, does the right of any individual US citizen to possess a gun outweigh the right of any individual child to grow up unmolested? Whilst on the face of it, the answer might depend upon whether or not you ask a member of the gun lobby, most adequately socialised people are able to discern the difference between more and less fundamental rights and privileges, and which actions are more and less conducive to harmonious social living - that is the essence of utlitarianism, one of the most basic and practical moral systems ever devised.
 
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