Why are you not Catholic?

[Contarini]

Would you expand upon that thought Edwin. I’m finding myself feeling more distant from my faith, and therefore from Christ, in my current church. How else can I see it other than a personal journey.

It is. Believe me, I understand where you’re coming from. One of the reasons I’ve stayed Episcopalian so long is that, in the words of my wife explaining why she became Episcopalian, “it doesn’t drive you nuts.” (Of course t would drive some people nuts, but whatever one may read in the news about TEC, the parishes I’ve been part of have been mostly interested in celebrating the Liturgy, receiving the Sacraments, and reading big gobs of Scripture–largely the same ones Catholics do.) Or, as my advisor put it to me years ago when I was first Episcopalian but continually saying that I really ought to be Catholic, “you seem to enjoy going to church [the Episcopal parish]. That’s quite rare.” (I’m not sure it’s that rare, but I saw the point.

I have had some thoughts of joining the Methodists, since they are my heritage and my parents go there, and there are many ways in which they are really doing God’s work. Also, selfishly, the pastor is one of the best preachers I’ve ever heard. But sacramentally it’s so empty.

So yes, I think about my own journey a lot. I’m just saying that it’s not all about that, as our culture often tells us. The Church is here to unite us all to each other and to God through Jesus Christ. Unity is essential.

But how do work for unity on our own complicated journeys? There are no easy answers, and I certainly didn’t mean to condemn you for whatever choice you find you need to make. I hope you can stick with Catholicism, because i really believe that they don’t teach any error formally and finally and that we all need, ultimately, to be in communion with Rome.

But given how many times I’ve failed to join, I can’t blame folks for leaving.

Edwin

 

[PRmerger]

No, I don’t see it as the same.

Its a parallel, not exactly the same.

Everything that you allow yourself to tell an ex-Christian is that which we would tell you as an ex-Catholic.

If you believe that you should be in a faith which nourishes you, then you ought to allow a Christian to leave Christianity for a faith which nourishes her, right?

If you believe that she would be lost, were she to leave Christianity, then you ought to allow a Catholic to tell you that you would be lost, were you to leave Catholicism.

See the parallel?

You cannot allow for yourself what you object to in Catholics.

For myself, who desires to continue and grow in my relationship with Christ, I feel there is a sense of condemnation if I move to another Christ based faith (Lutheran for example).

Would you offer a sense of condemnation if someone moves from one montheistic faith (Christianity) to another monotheistic faith (Islam, for example)?

Shouldn’t the bigger focus be on the fact that in an effort to grow closer to Christ, I am seeking a place of worship.

Shouldn’t the bigger focus be on the fact that in an effort to grow closer to God, she is seeking a place of worship in a mosque?

Are we not all Christian brothers and sisters who are seeking the same in the end?

Are monotheists also not seeking the same end?

Is it not a matter of earthly restraints and arguments over doctrine? In the end though, isn’t Christ the reason we are all here and in some form of fellowship?

Is it not a matter of earthly restraints and arguments over doctrine? In the end, though, isn’t God the reason we are all here and in some form of fellowship?

As you can see, I am struggling and not taking my faith journey lightly.

Prayers that you will find peace. And truth.

 

[PRmerger]

Its a parallel, not exactly the same.

Everything that you allow yourself to tell an ex-Christian is that which we would tell you as an ex-Catholic.

If you believe that you should be in a faith which nourishes you, then you ought to allow a Christian to leave Christianity for a faith which nourishes her, right?

If you believe that she would be lost, were she to leave Christianity, then you ought to allow a Catholic to tell you that you would be lost, were you to leave Catholicism.

See the parallel?

You cannot allow for yourself what you object to in Catholics.

Would you offer a sense of condemnation if someone moves from one montheistic faith (Christianity) to another monotheistic faith (Islam, for example)?

Shouldn’t the bigger focus be on the fact that in an effort to grow closer to God, she is seeking a place of worship in a mosque?

Are monotheists also not seeking the same end?

Is it not a matter of earthly restraints and arguments over doctrine? In the end, though, isn’t God the reason we are all here and in some form of fellowship?

Prayers that you will find peace. And truth.

glad2behome: please do not mistake the parallel I’ve offered between Lutheranism and Islam as if I am saying they are the same. There ought to be no response like, “How dare you compare Lutheranism to Islam!”

They are simply analogs in a similar equation.

So when Christ offers a parallel between us and sheep, he is not saying we are the same as sheep.

He is simply offering a parallel: we are like sheep in a certain way, but not in every way.

Similarly, you are considering leaving Catholicism. I make a parallel between someone considering leaving Christianity.

Everything you argue about leaving Catholicism could be made by the person leaving Christianity.

Everything you would tell the ex-Christian, we would tell you.

 

[Thorolfr]

I have had some thoughts of joining the Methodists, since they are my heritage and my parents go there, and there are many ways in which they are really doing God’s work. Also, selfishly, the pastor is one of the best preachers I’ve ever heard. But sacramentally it’s so empty.

So yes, I think about my own journey a lot. I’m just saying that it’s not all about that, as our culture often tells us. The Church is here to unite us all to each other and to God through Jesus Christ. Unity is essential.

But how do work for unity on our own complicated journeys? There are no easy answers,

As you said, there are no easy answers and I doubt that anything we can do as individual Christians is going, for example, to unite the ELCA with the LCMS or both of those with the Episcopal Church and with the Methodists and the Catholic Church and the Southern Baptists, etc. I’ve also found that none of the different churches I’ve been in do everything equally well. I love the traditional liturgy, the weekly readings from the Revised Common Lectionary, weekly communion, etc. in my ELCA congregation. The Southern Baptists I grew up with didn’t have any liturgy and only had communion less than once a month and it didn’t seem like a very important thing to them. I’ve heard better preaching sometimes in a Presbyterian church I attended for a while. But the Lutherans do music way better than the Presbyterians (IMHO). We have an outstanding organist in my ELCA church who often starts with a prelude by Johann Sebastian Bach (who was a Lutheran). There are no easy choices.

 

[SilverLight]

Any of you come “this close” to embracing Catholicism, but haven’t been able to? How come?

Did any of you start as Catholic but ended up converting to Eastern Orthodox or Anglican or Lutheran or something else? Why?

Any of you “cafeteria Catholics” and are comfortable with it? How did you reconcile that?

Just trying to find my place in this world!

I was raised Catholic and still consider myself to be in a way however. I have a few other things I have incorporated into my beliefs. Catholicism is my beliefs backbone but I also like to honor the Earth in a way similar to that of the native Americans. I respect the Earth we live on and feel bad when I see an animal die. I sometimes thank an animal for the food it has given me as a small sign of respect from one living thing to another. I appreciate what they give us and in turn I try to help animals my self. I believe in karma also and that bad and good actions can come back to you eventually. The more good you do the better you will be and a better life you may have.

 

[crai7]

Crai, I’m glad you’re here because you’re going to get a lot of correction on the misinformation you’ve been asserting here.

You stated: “Eastern Rite churches don’t even report to the Pope or Vatican”

and when asked to support your claim you offered a post about the Orthodox Church.

They are not the same thing, crai.

The Eastern rite churches are Catholic. And, as such, they do “report to the Pope or Vatican”.

Orthodox Churches are NOT Catholic.

NO, you left out the sentence that followed. First I wrote “Eastern Rite churches don’t even report to the Pope or Vatican.” Then I defined that by the immediately following sentence “Their finances and hierarchy are entirely separate - so in effect the Rites in CC are as divided as the Protestants…”.

So what you mean by report is not what I mean by report. Maybe there is a token acknowledgement of the supremacy of the Pope, but in practice not so much.

Eastern Rite churches may have their own Canon law, some allow priests to marry, they have their own architecture, some have a patriarch etc.

Therefore I stand by the original argument that Catholics are themselves divided, and you cannot whinge about Protestants divisions, when in your own backyard you have divisions.

Even in the RCC there is high variation. If the individual beliefs and behaviours of Catholics are subject to such extreme variation, then at best what you have is some vaguely connected people who give token allegiance to the Pope.

And yes I know the Orthodox are not Catholic, as you can see by my earlier response to Contarini in post 381.

 

[adrift]

NO, you left out the sentence that followed. First I wrote “Eastern Rite churches don’t even report to the Pope or Vatican.” Then I defined that by the immediately following sentence “Their finances and hierarchy are entirely separate - so in effect the Rites in CC are as divided as the Protestants…”.

So what you mean by report is not what I mean by report. Maybe there is a token acknowledgement of the supremacy of the Pope, but in practice not so much.

Eastern Rite churches may have their own Canon law, some allow priests to marry, they have their own architecture, some have a patriarch etc.

Therefore I stand by the original argument that Catholics are themselves divided, and you cannot whinge about Protestants divisions, when in your own backyard you have divisions. If the individual beliefs and behaviours of Catholics are subject to such extreme variation, then at best what you have is some vaguely connected people who give token allegiance to the Pope.

And yes I know the Orthodox are not Catholic, as you can see by my earlier response to Contarini in post 381.

They are under the authority of the Pope. They recognize the Pope as leader and are united. They are a separate rite. Rites are generally misunderstood as your post suggest. You have a misunderstanding. What you write could also be written about each Bishop. None allow priest to marry they allow married men to be priest. The Roman rite also has married priest. Protestants divided from the Catholic Church and then continued to divide.

 

[steve_b]

For myself, who desires to continue and grow in my relationship with Christ,

As it should be.
g:

I feel there is a sense of condemnation if I move to another Christ based faith (Lutheran for example).

Allow me to restate in a paraphrase what I think I’m hearing you say. If I’m all wet then tell me.

here’s how I’m hearing you.

You want to leave the ONLY Church Jesus established, died for, and gave ALL His promises to 2000 years ago, in favor of joining a 100% manmade religion started by a heretic excommunicated Catholic priest 1500 years AFTER Jesus established HIS Church, and you FEEL that there might be some condemnation to that? Do I have that right?

Your feeling is correct. Here’s the source of that condemnation and when and where it was stated

Division/dissention /schism/sedition διχοστασίας* dichostasia* ] from the ONLY Church Jesus established, has been condemned from the very beginning. That Greek word highlighted there, is a working link. Just open it to see the definition. That word is used in the Greek NT, in both of the following bible passages. Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 . Galatians gives the actual consequence for that sin and for the one who does it, and dies in that sin…i,e, one who leaves and doesn’t return to the Catholic Church or one who won’t come into the Catholic Church. "They will not inherit heaven". [Gal 5:21] as in they go to hell. Note there is no expiration date to the warning and condemnation.

Q: How do we know it’s the Catholic Church being spoken of there? See #34 and be sure to open up all the internal links.

*Re: Lutheranism as in all Protestant organizations regardless of stripe, *

*they aren’t the Church. They are outside the Church. *
If you have any doubts on that, here is from the Catechism (CCC)
I numbered the points of CCC 837 (all emphasis mine)

It makes 4 qualifying points

*"*Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, (i.e. baptised)

1. 
   *]accept all the means of salvation given to the Church
   *]together with her entire organization,
   *]who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ,
   *]who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.
   
   applying that list to validly baptized Protestants of any stripe, none by definition, meet the requirements for being “in” the Church.
   
   afterall, Protestants don’t
   1. 
      *]-]accept all the means of salvation given to the Church /-]
      *]-]together with her entire organization,/-]
      *]-]who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, i.e. the Catholic profession of faith the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ,/-]
      *]-] who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops./-]
      
      Protestants, therefore, are **NOT **“in” the Church. They are outside the Church. And we see what scripture says about that.
      
      Jesus hates division. And since He made the rules, we abide by His rules.
      g:
      

      Shouldn’t the bigger focus be on the fact that in an effort to grow closer to Christ, I am seeking a place of worship. Are we not all Christian brothers and sisters who are seeking the same in the end? Is it not a matter of earthly restraints and arguments over doctrine? In the end though, isn’t Christ the reason we are all here and in some form of fellowship?
      As you can see, I am struggling and not taking my faith journey lightly.

      Bottomline this is not on our terms, but on accepting His terms…

 

[steve_b]

Thank you for you response.

You’re welcome :tiphat:
g:

I don’t see myself as without faith in Christ or leaving Him in any way.

Permission to speak openly

You said you don’t “feel” fed in th e Catholic Church. I showed you where “feelings” can be 100% wrong, and that we don’t go by our feelings but from realities that come from faith. On this side of eternity, you can’t have a more powerful food than the Eucharist.

I can’t say this anyother way.

If you leave the Eucharist you leave Jesus, body blood soul and divinity. That is Jesus point in the bread of life discourse that I quoted previously. And there were those who left Him over that teaching on the Eucharist. There are HUGE consequences for THAT person who leaves the Church and therefore leaves the Eucharist.

see #486

To be clear, No Protestant assembly no matter the stripe, has valid orders. Therefore no valid priesthood, therefore no valid Eucharist.
g:

I see my struggle with the Catholic Church. I would never abandon Christianity in itself.

Again, permission to speak openly

Here are the Great Heresies** .** Look through the entire list. They are ALL Christians.

What does Paul say about heretical Christians?

[Titus 3:10 (Titus 3:10 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway)
“As for a man who is factious ( [αἱρετικὸν (http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm) heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

Paul is NOT talking to or about pagans. He’s talking about the baptized there.

My observation of what I’m seeing in general in society today,

• There is NO fear of God
• there is NO fear of hell.
• therefore there is tons of disobedience to the will of God.
• and History is merely repeating itself as it always seems to do.

That’s why Jesus warned
Mt 7: 13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a (Matthew 7:12-14 RSVCE - So whatever you wish that men would do - Bible Gateway)* that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Jesus]*

Bottomline, If only a few make it to heaven, that means the rest go to hell. Fear of God and fear of hell is a good thing to have.

In all charity, I’ll just come out and say it. DO NOT LEAVE the Catholic Church. By definition, you leave the CC, you leave the Eucharist, and you leave Jesus. To be clear, going to a Protestant assembly, you leave the Catholic Church.

As an aside.

Here’s another point I want to make. It also involves the Eucharist.

#[22 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12759634&postcount=22)

 

[steve_b]

Does this passage appear only in the gospel of John?

yes
T:

Why doesn’t it appear in any of the other three gospels?

The bread of life discourse ( eat my flesh and drink my blood) recounted by John, complements Jesus words ( take and eat this is my body…take and drink this is my blood…) while He was instituting the Eucharist recounted in the 3 synoptic gospels.

 

[Tomdstone]

yes

The bread of life discourse ( eat my flesh and drink my blood) recounted by John, complements Jesus words ( take and eat this is my body…take and drink this is my blood…) while He was instituting the Eucharist recounted in the 3 synoptic gospels.

Some scholars say that the gospel of John was written in response to the Docetism heresy, which asserted that Jesus was not flesh, but rather a phantasm, an illusion, and as such much of what is written is to be taken metaphorically.

 

[glad2bhome]

You’re welcome :tiphat:

Permission to speak openly

You said you don’t “feel” fed in th e Catholic Church. I showed you where “feelings” can be 100% wrong, and that we don’t go by our feelings but from realities that come from faith. On this side of eternity, you can’t have a more powerful food than the Eucharist.

I can’t say this anyother way.

If you leave the Eucharist you leave Jesus, body blood soul and divinity. That is Jesus point in the bread of life discourse that I quoted previously. And there were those who left Him over that teaching on the Eucharist. There are HUGE consequences for THAT person who leaves the Church and therefore leaves the Eucharist.

see #486

To be clear, No Protestant assembly no matter the stripe, has valid orders. Therefore no valid priesthood, therefore no valid Eucharist.

Again, permission to speak openly

Here are the Great Heresies** .** Look through the entire list. They are ALL Christians.

What does Paul say about heretical Christians?

[Titus 3:10 (Titus 3:10 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway)
“As for a man who is factious ( [α (http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm)ἱρετικὸ****ν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

Paul is NOT talking to or about pagans. He’s talking about the baptized there.

My observation of what I’m seeing in general in society today,

• There is NO fear of God
• there is NO fear of hell.
• therefore there is tons of disobedience to the will of God.
• and History is merely repeating itself as it always seems to do.

That’s why Jesus warned
Mt 7: 13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a (Matthew 7:12-14 RSVCE - So whatever you wish that men would do - Bible Gateway)* that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow* and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Jesus]

Bottomline, If only a few make it to heaven, that means the rest go to hell. Fear of God and fear of hell is a good thing to have.

In all charity, I’ll just come out and say it. DO NOT LEAVE the Catholic Church. By definition, you leave the CC, you leave the Eucharist, and you leave Jesus. To be clear, going to a Protestant assembly, you leave the Catholic Church.

As an aside.

Here’s another point I want to make. It also involves the Eucharist.

#[22 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12759634&postcount=22)

Thank you for our passionate and heartfelt reply.

Are you saying that the Catholic faith believes that all other Christians are going to hell then? I’m seriously asking because that is something that I was never taught.

Also, is going through the motions in attending Mass, and coming away empty, better than nothing or another Christian service?

And a final thought, only God knows our soul, and I find it difficult to believe a loving God would condemn someone sincerely seeking to grow closer to him.

Thank you again for your post.

 

[steve_b]

Some scholars say that the gospel of John was written in response to the Docetism heresy, which asserted that Jesus was not flesh, but rather a phantasm, an illusion, and as such much of what is written is to be taken metaphorically.

Here’s the last words of John in his Gospel

John 21:24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

John obviously focused on Jesus.

 

[Tomdstone]

Here’s the last words of John in his Gospel

John 21:24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

John obviously focused on Jesus.

Jesus’ teaching in John is different from that found in the 3 synoptic gospels, and many scholars say that the Synoptic Gospels are more accurate historically of what Jesus taught.

 

[steve_b]

Thank you for our passionate and heartfelt reply.

Are you saying that the Catholic faith believes that all other Christians are going to hell then? I’m seriously asking because that is something that I was never taught.

As you can see, I quote alot.

Is there a specific question from one of these posts? #486 , #487
g:

Also, is going through the motions in attending Mass, and coming away empty, better than nothing or another Christian service?

• Why are you just going through the motions?
• Why do you think you’re coming away from the Eucharist empty?
• Why do you think leaving the Eucharist for a Protestant religious service, is better for you?

could you comment on the followig #[22 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12759634&postcount=22)

Thank you in advance
g:

And a final thought, only God knows our soul, and I find it difficult to believe a loving God would condemn someone sincerely seeking to grow closer to him.

keep in mind these are errors in thinking and obviously many subscribe to these errors

Taken From http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm
THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS CONDEMNED BY PIUS IX
III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM

1. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. – Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.
2. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. – Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.
3. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. – Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
4. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. – Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849.

g:

Thank you again for your post.

You’re welcome

 

[steve_b]

Jesus’ teaching in John is different from that found in the 3 synoptic gospels, and many scholars say that the Synoptic Gospels are more accurate historically of what Jesus taught.

Keep in mind also, there are “scholars” who throw colored beads into a cup as a vote on whether they think this or that is true in scripture and someone after each vote counts the beads to see what the answer is.

That’s why the title “scholar” without a name and reference, really doesn’t mean much to me. Especially when they come up with strange conclusions that contradict the Church who gave us those scriptures. But that’s just me I guess.

 

[PRmerger]

And yes I know the Orthodox are not Catholic, as you can see by my earlier response to Contarini in post 381.

Then your source was a peculiar one. It dealt with the Orthodox. But we were speaking of Eastern rite Catholics.

I asked for a source to back up your claim that the Eastern rite Catholics do not report to the Vatican or the Pope.

Since you posted a source dealing with the Orthodox(weirdly, since you claim to know the difference), I am still waiting for a source (a correct one) to back up your assertion.

Please offer that.

Thanks.

 

[Tomdstone]

Keep in mind also, there are “scholars” who throw colored beads into a cup as a vote on whether they think this or that is true in scripture and someone after each vote counts the beads to see what the answer is.

I have not heard of that. Specifially, who are those scholars who determine the truth of Scripture by counting colored beads in a cup? Can you give us a reference to this?

 

[GKC]

I have not heard of that. Specifially, who are those scholars who determine the truth of Scripture by counting colored beads in a cup? Can you give us a reference to this?

I suspect that’s the Jesus Seminar.

 

[Tomdstone]

I suspect that’s the Jesus Seminar.

It seems like what steve b has been saying about counting colored beads to determine the truth of Holy Scripture is to be taken figuratively and not literally, which is how some scholars take much of what is written in the Gospel of St. John. Some of the gospel is historical of course, but much of what is said in the fourth gospel does not align itself easily with what is reported in the Synoptic Gospels.