Why are you not Catholic?

[Share_love]

Micosil, you sound very well informed. That is wonderful. Are you becoming Catholic next Easter?

 

[Richard_White]

Micosil, you sound very well informed. That is wonderful. Are you becoming Catholic next Easter?

Not to steal his thunder, but since I think he signed for for now, yes, I believe that he said on another thread that he is planning on being received into the Church next Easter!

May God bless you all abundantly and forever!

 

[Share_love]

That’s great! I’m very happy to hear that!

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Oh indeed, I hope nobody gets the impression I was implying this is something unique to Catholics. Had it just been this I may not have left the church, but on reflection I think it was the “straw that broke the camels back” so to speak. It was the last major “bad” event before I decided to leave, it just happened to be a rather dramatic one.

There are good and bad Catholics, as there are good and bad Protestants, Muslims, Athiests and every other group.

I must say I share this concern with you, although it is not one that ever crossed my mind until I left the Catholic Church.

I find the very concept of a confessional upon reflection to be a very shady affair. Allow me to share a true example; a former friend of mine had an affair and was advised by his confessor not to tell his wife.

Lets think about this. The mistress in question thankfully wasn’t but could have been a common prostitute riddled with every sexual transmitted disease under the sun. The man is placing his wife at risk and she isn’t been giving any warning to take precautions (testing, preventative treatments etc). Not only that but he was encouraging the idea of lying to ones spouse, that is terrible and why I decided to tell his wife myself by sending an explicit picture of the mistress and him he’d been keeping on his phone to the wife. For the record they are still together but she made him be tested and wait six months to be “in the clear” from any STD’s that may not have revealed themselves. You may think I’m a troublemaker bringing scandal on a good Catholic couple, I think I may have prevented her from catching something awful from his whore.

We can bring this out to anything really, murder, rape, child abuse is the big one that comes to mind really…“Don’t tell your wife, you’ll bring scandal”. As we’ve seen in the past fifty years it’s all too tempting to replace “wife” with “your parents”. I feel very uncomfortable with the level of underhand dealing Catholicism encourages, from radical convalidation to confession.

I have noticed that you are the only one to even address that part of my post.

Any church that encourages one to lie to their spouse or betray their spouse is not a church that I want to be part of.

 

[Micosil]

Micosil, you sound very well informed. That is wonderful. Are you becoming Catholic next Easter?

Not to steal his thunder, but since I think he signed for for now, yes, I believe that he said on another thread that he is planning on being received into the Church next Easter!

May God bless you all abundantly and forever!

Yes, indeed, God willing next Easter Vigil I will receive the sacraments of initiation.

And as far as being well informed – I just like to read stuff here and there. Knowing the history of Christianity is precisely one of the things that lead me to the Church.

 

[Peter_J]

Can you find a neutral website or two that claims what the two websites above do?

Almost an oxymoron. Almost.

 

[Cake_or_Death]

I have noticed that you are the only one to even address that part of my post.

Any church that encourages one to lie to their spouse or betray their spouse is not a church that I want to be part of.

I don’t think you’re likely to get one honestly; but you aren’t the only one who views it like that.

Still, that wasn’t what actually made me leave, just something someone else pointed out to me and that affair made me think “Oh yeah…”.

Another reason just came to my mind. Candidates for the sainthood. Saints are supposed to be exemplars of Christianity right? Then why are so many of the most recent candidates so…iffy. I’m not suggesting people pick up Christopher Hitchen’s biography of Mother Theresa but there are other reasons to believe she was involved in some very, very dodgy financial transactions and the care given by her order was of dubious quality and content. Seriously, for all the millions she generated where did it all go? . Padre Pio, JP 2, Pius IX…There’s a few people who have gained sainthood or are slowly edging towards it that I think are somewhat questionable choices or have a great deal of uncertainty around them.

There’s more I would say but I don’t think I would be allowed to post it publicly or share links related to specific cases.

 

[crai7]

Any of you come “this close” to embracing Catholicism, but haven’t been able to? How come?

Did any of you start as Catholic but ended up converting to Eastern Orthodox or Anglican or Lutheran or something else? Why?

Any of you “cafeteria Catholics” and are comfortable with it? How did you reconcile that?

Just trying to find my place in this world!

I was approached by a priest in relation to various projects within my field of expertise that they required assistance on a few years ago. It eventually sparked an interest in the past year or so.

Since my father’s side was Catholic, there was further motivation to study Catholicism more closely.

I’ve never fully agreed with the teachings of any denomination, and have learnt to ignore/filter what I don’t agree with in whatever church I find myself in. However, having grown up in a Protestant denomination most of my beliefs are more aligned with the protestants.

The Catholic church makes the “I will just filter” approach impossible because you must be a member to participate in the eucharist/communion. So protestant churches make far more sense from a practical standpoint; and also I have to do less filtering because there is a bit less to disagree with.

I have to say though, when I watched my first mass I was surprised by how central Christ was. You’re expecting lots of chanting, bowing down to statues, smoke, smells, bells, ceremony, pomp - an obsession with aesthetic… but not a focus on Jesus. So that was a pleasant surprise.

 

[Smfm]

I came extremely close. Some of the members here wonder “what the heck happened” because of just how close I was.

For me, it’s that Catholics around me have no heart. They have grey hair, they have a couple family members with them, they’re not open about their Faith, and it’s really just a part of their culture. No one took any interest in me when I visited CC’s.

They’re not interested in “Going and making Disciples of all nations.” As for me, I want everyone to know who Christ is, I want to discuss it with my closest friends and I want them to be inspired in our discussions. I want God to be the centre of my life, and the Church I attend makes sure that’s your attitude. There is no “Culture” where I go to Church. People come in whether rich, poor, old, young, whatever. People are on fire for God where I go.

There are some doctrinal reasons I am not Catholic, but when my conscience was hurting and I couldn’t decide because both my Church and the CC’s sounded so right, I then decided I would only pray and read my Bible. I put it in God’s hands. And for whatever reason, it seems so obvious to me that He wants me where I am.

Where I am now I know Christians who are only Christians because they want to be. We feed the poor, not to be social, but because we want to preach Christ. There’s so much good where I am, and I won’t give it up unless God brings me somewhere else.

Jesus was a Catholic, why wouldn’t you want to be ?

 

[SalusaSecondus]

Jesus was a Catholic, why wouldn’t you want to be ?

He was a Jew.

 

[Thorolfr]

In regard to marriage, Jesus clearly elevated it to sacramental level (and I believe that the Lutherans have it as a Sacrament, too).

Lutherans have only two sacraments: baptism and communion, although sometimes penance (confession) is also included. Marriage is not considered a sacrament but rather a sacramental (i.e. material objects, things or actions that are set apart or blessed).

 

[Kosta]

Any of you come “this close” to embracing Catholicism, but haven’t been able to? How come?

Did any of you start as Catholic but ended up converting to Eastern Orthodox or Anglican or Lutheran or something else? Why?

Any of you “cafeteria Catholics” and are comfortable with it? How did you reconcile that?

Just trying to find my place in this world!

I was baptized Catholic only to placate my Father’s side of the family who said they’d be furious if I was not baptized as such. I went to Catholic school and was brought to church as a child by my Father when he wasn’t working (once or maybe more by my Mother, who is not Catholic). At 12-13, I felt like something wasn’t right in my life. I saw my family members say “there is no other religion in the world but Catholicism” and making fun of my Orthodox Mother and Grandmother, but I didn’t see them backing it up. Likewise, I didn’t see it at my school, nor did I see it from the pulpit when the priest said remarks like “on your wedding day, be like a Jewish princess, ladies; sit down, do your nails, and relax” and “you all make the sign of the cross wrong; it’s left to right, not right to left. Only the Orthodox make it like that, and nobody cares about them!” I made non-serious attempts at looking into Buddhism and Judaism. Then, I decided to look into my Mother’s religion. At first, I was running from Catholicism, but after the advice of an old, Greek hairdresser, I decided that I shouldn’t be running away from Catholicism, I should be running into Orthodoxy. I got serious about studying the Church, went through three years of catechism, and never looked back.

That’s why I’m not Catholic.

 

[Micosil]

Yes. That’s why there are absolutely no doctrinal disputes in Catholicism. LOL.

First of all, there is a question of theological certainty. There are certain doctrines and teachings that are within the free range of theological research as well as teachings with low degree of certainty. These are teachings and statements that can be discussed and disputed, in particular within the realms of professional theology.

Second, if heterodox statements and doctrines are being taught and it becomes problematic, you can see in history that the way the Church has solved this is by convening what is known as an ecumenical council, and declaring things once and for all. Popular opinion among the laity, then, isn’t what determines what the Catholic Church actually teaches. My understanding is that most American Catholics contracept, and a substantial percentage believes that same-sex marriage should be a thing. You know as well as I do that that most definitely isn’t what the Church teaches.

I was baptized Catholic only to placate my Father’s side of the family who said they’d be furious if I was not baptized as such. I went to Catholic school and was brought to church as a child by my Father when he wasn’t working (once or maybe more by my Mother, who is not Catholic). At 12-13, I felt like something wasn’t right in my life. I saw my family members say “there is no other religion in the world but Catholicism” and making fun of my Orthodox Mother and Grandmother, but I didn’t see them backing it up. Likewise, I didn’t see it at my school, nor did I see it from the pulpit when the priest said remarks like “on your wedding day, be like a Jewish princess, ladies; sit down, do your nails, and relax” and “you all make the sign of the cross wrong; it’s left to right, not right to left. Only the Orthodox make it like that, and nobody cares about them!” I made non-serious attempts at looking into Buddhism and Judaism. Then, I decided to look into my Mother’s religion. At first, I was running from Catholicism, but after the advice of an old, Greek hairdresser, I decided that I shouldn’t be running away from Catholicism, I should be running into Orthodoxy. I got serious about studying the Church, went through three years of catechism, and never looked back.

That’s why I’m not Catholic.

Does that priest know Eastern Catholics also make the Sign of the Cross like the Orthodox do? It’s those sorts of bigoted comments that should always be pointed out, imho, and be charitably corrected. I can understand why you’d be put off by Catholicism after such experiences, though I hope you understand most Catholics aren’t like that, and that a priest’s moral integrity (or lack thereof in this case) doesn’t make the Church any less holy.

 

[Kosta]

Does that priest know Eastern Catholics also make the Sign of the Cross like the Orthodox do? It’s those sorts of bigoted comments that should always be pointed out, imho, and be charitably corrected.

I doubt it. Very, very few Catholic Americans know that Eastern Catholicism exists.

I can understand why you’d be put off by Catholicism after such experiences, though I hope you understand most Catholics aren’t like that, and that a priest’s moral integrity (or lack thereof in this case) doesn’t make the Church any less holy.

That question is not of consequence to me. Whether your faith community is all holy, not at all holy, or somewhere inbetween has no bearing on my spiritual-journey, nor is it my judgement call to make. I know full well that the Church is, however.

 

[Micosil]

I doubt it. Very, very few Catholic Americans know that Eastern Catholicism exists.

That the laity in general may not know is one thing. But I always find it surprising when priests and bishops, who usually have graduate-level training and qualifications in theology, canon law, and the like, make ignorant claims such as these.

That question is not of consequence to me. Whether your faith community is all holy, not at all holy, or somewhere inbetween has no bearing on my spiritual-journey, nor is it my judgement call to make. I know full well that the Church is, however.

 

[Peter_J]

I doubt it. Very, very few Catholic Americans know that Eastern Catholicism exists.

Sadly true.

But whether people know about us or not, I have to wonder why this sort of thing is always put upon Eastern Catholics anyhow.

Edit: Keep in mind that Greek Catholics and Oriental Catholics together comprise less than 2% of the Roman Communion.

 

[Memaw]

Which Lutheran church considers marriage to be a Sacrament?

The Catholic Church considers Marriage a Sacrament when a man and women, both Baptized and free to marry, make their vows to each other in the presents of their minister. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Contarini]

I

I know you’ve given this great thought and struggled with it. But regarding issue #1 how do you resolve the words of Jesus in Matthew 18:17?

‘If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.’

It seems to me that without a single church in some sense this verse is rendered meaningless. If I’m excluded from one church but can just go join another and still be in the Church then isn’t this teaching drained of any real meaning? There has to be one visible Church in some sense from which I can be excluded. The best candidate seems to me the Catholic Church. This was an important factor for me in my conversion.

Yes, this is one of the strong arguments.

I don’t think, by the way, that Matthew 18 itself is necessarily speaking about doctrinal conflicts within the Universal Church. It appears to be speaking about personal conflicts in a local community. But certainly the principle of a unified community with disciplinary authority is there.

I believe strongly that the local Christian community should be united, and that every local community should be in communion with every other. I also believe that Rome has disciplinary authority. But as a matter of historical record, Rome has often exercised that authority very badly, and this has contributed to division.

In other words, you’re assuming that Jesus’ guidelines imply that there always will be a clearly identifiable local church in any given place, part of a clearly identified, unified, universal visible church distinct from other bodies that claim to be Christian. But I think that’s an unwarranted assumption.

One of the things that strikes me over and over again about popular Catholic apologetics is how unthinkingly you guys assume a kind of “ecclesial perfectionism” in certain selected areas while decrying it in others.

Jesus prayed that we would be one. So you assume from this that we have always been and will always be one. Non sequitur. It is quite obvious that Christians, of all traditions, fall short of what Jesus wants of us over and over. Why not in this as well?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

As a Canadian this is utter malarky. People are more likely to look down on Evangelicals here.

It isn’t malarky–it just doesn’t fit your local experience.

Edwin

 

[Tomdstone]

I believe strongly that the local Christian community should be united, and that every local community should be in communion with every other.

But what if they have different beliefs on gay marriage for clergy and on what is meant by Holy Communion?