Why are you not Catholic?

[rcwitness]

I believe strongly that the local Christian community should be united, and that every local community should be in communion with every other. I also believe that Rome has disciplinary authority. But as a matter of historical record, Rome has often exercised that authority very badly, and this has contributed to division.

I think the Catechism agrees with you…
817**In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church—for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”269The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body—here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270—do not occur without human sin: (2089)

 

[drac16]

Because I don’t know much about Catholicism. I can’t follow something that I know little about. I know enough to understand why I, as a muslim, reject it, but as far as understanding it on a deep level, I have yet to get there… That’s one of the reasons I came to CAF (to be a learner). My dad was raised in a Roman Catholic household, but for whatever reason, he stopped practicing his faith after he got married to my mom. My dad’s mother used to hand out Hosts during the Eucharist, from what I understand.

I’m reading through the Cathechism right now; slowly but surely.

 

[spedteacherita]

I find it hard to believe that you could not find a nice send of peace from the Lord Jesus and that you would so quickly gave up the beauties of the Catholic faith for Lutheranism. I mean, listen to the name: why would anyone want to join a denomination that was founded by a man (a heretic, nonetheless), when you were already living in God’s Truth.

May God bless everyone on this thread and guide them to His Holy Catholic Church!

It’s not the name which brings us to love the Lutheran Church but what it is teaching within its walls. You may not consider it Truth but those of us who are members find the beauty of Truth in all aspects of the teaching given us.

I have been here at CAF to learn about Catholicism but questions like yours with the intent to bait only tend to get non- Catholics defensive.

God bless!

Rita

 

[Share_love]

It’s not the name which brings us to love the Lutheran Church but what it is teaching within its walls. You may not consider it Truth but those of us who are members find the beauty of Truth in all aspects of the teaching given us.

I have been here at CAF to learn about Catholicism but questions like yours with the intent to bait only tend to get non- Catholics defensive.

God bless!

Rita

The problem is that the teachings within its walls are heretical and antithetical to what Christ himself taught. The concepts of “Sola Fide” and “Sola Scriptura” are not traditional Christian teachings. ‘Faith alone’ was condemned in scripture in James 2:24, for example.

I’m not trying to get you defensive, by any means. I just think it’s very important to make sure our beliefs line up with the earliest Christians, and it’s clear that they had a view of salvation that is not Protestant in nature.

 

[MartinJordan]

Because I don’t know much about Catholicism. I can’t follow something that I know little about. I know enough to understand why I, as a muslim, reject it, but as far as understanding it on a deep level, I have yet to get there… That’s one of the reasons I came to CAF (to be a learner). My dad was raised in a Roman Catholic household, but for whatever reason, he stopped practicing his faith after he got married to my mom. My dad’s mother used to hand out Hosts during the Eucharist, from what I understand.

I’m reading through the Cathechism right now; slowly but surely.

Excellent

Cheers!

MJ

 

[spedteacherita]

I would say He is God. If he was Catholic then He would have to follow the Pope’s leadership!

Jesus was a Jew…His followers became known as
Chritians using the word in a derogatory manner. In fact, you normally found Jesus in the Temple on the Sabbath worshiping God His father.

God bless!!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Yet, scripture never called him a Catholic, it does call him a Jew. Why no just go with what scripture says?

amen!

 

[spedteacherita]

It seems to me that an “annulment” is just an approved form of “divorce” with a different name. According to Merriam-Webster, a “divorce” is “the ending of a marriage by a legal process”. An annulment is basically the same thing except it is an ecclesiastical legal process and the marriage is ended by a verdit that it never existed in the first place.

My sister had 2 marriage anulled so she could have a Catholic wedding . He ended up getting married to her within the Catholic wedding…guess what? They divorced within 2 years because he was developing dimentia…she needed counseling not annulments! She is presentally is engaged once again…I don’t think the Catholic Church served her well…

Blessings!

Rita

 

[Tomdstone]

Jesus was Baptized +++

Was He baptised in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

 

[spedteacherita]

The problem is that the teachings within its walls are heretical and antithetical to what Christ himself taught. The concepts of “Sola Fide” and “Sola Scriptura” are not traditional Christian teachings. ‘Faith alone’ was condemned in scripture in James 2:24, for example.

I’m not trying to get you defensive, by any means. I just think it’s very important to make sure our beliefs line up with the earliest Christians, and it’s clear that they had a view of salvation that is not Protestant in nature.

Hi, Sharing Love. I enjoy conversation like this and I understand the Catholic Church’s teaching about communion. I am very interestes in the Catholic faith biut doctrines such as the Immaculate conception and the Assumption of Mary and several other (questionable doctrines) deter me.

As far as the heretical teachings within our church- the LCMS is very conservative and follow closely to what the Bible tells us aand, I the case of Holy Communion is very clear. Sola scriptura actually is in the control of our Bishops and president- we have our own ideas about scriptural meanings. But our understandings must line up within a group of Bishops.

Thank you so much for your respectful conversation)!!

 

[rcwitness]

My sister had 2 marriage anulled so she could have a Catholic wedding . He ended up getting married to her within the Catholic wedding…guess what? They divorced within 2 years because he was developing dimentia…she needed counseling not annulments! She is presentally is engaged once again…I don’t think the Catholic Church served her well…

Blessings!

Rita

Why were her first two weddings annuled?

Was she unable to annul her Catholic marriage, then?

If so, why is she attempting another marriage?

Do you think she was honest with the tribunal?

 

[Young_Ludovicus]

Well it’s complicated.
Raised as a cultural agnostic catholic with no ‘real ties’ to the faith. Brought up in a very secular Dutch society in which people have a real contempt for all religious people. Atleast in my environment.

I studied all different kinds of religion trying to be unbiased. I saw Catholicism and Protestantism basically as equal before. Also a lot of non-christian religions were studied. Tengriism, Mandaeism, Samaritan, different sects of Judaism, Neo-paganism, Sunni, Sji’ite, Ibadi, Suffi, Quranism, Bábism, Baha’í, Azelis, Druze, Jezidi, Cargo-cults, Buddhism, Hinduism. Some to a lesser extent while I was more serious about others.

I studied those just for knowledge not to find God.

The religions that spoke more to me were Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Church of the East. With Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy as the clear front runners.

It really started to resonate with me.

I accept the primacy of the Petrine office, so I would be Catholic altough I have various Eastern Orthodox leanings and some reservations about some parts of Catholicism.

But the real deal with me is I’m unsure about the existence of a God, I certainly wasn’t raised this way so it’s hard to hold this belief without questioning.

I won’t turn Catholic untill I really believe this.

As it is right now I’m planning to seek adult catechism in about a few years. To deepen knowledge about the faith and to get within a God believing circle of people.

As it is now I’m either very agnostic or catholic.
So I can discuss and see from the perspective of both.

If I discerned that there is a God I’d switch to Catholicism within a second.

 

[Stilldreamn]

Sitting on the fence is increasingly painful for me. I have been discerning my place in God’s family for some time, and seriously considering conversion to the Catholic Church.

I have been volunteering at a local Catholic parish’s community outreach center (it is a separate organization from the congregation itself) and in fact am on the board of directors. I have resigned my position on the church council at my Lutheran parish because of my internal conflicts. My Lutheran pastor has been very patient with me and we have spoken at some length about my concerns with “authority” in the LCMS.

I have had some discussion with my husband and adult children about my thoughts, and how they feel about it. My husband doesn’t attend church now, and probably won’t in the future. My sons are open to the possibility of conversion.

Those are the externals.

My doubts about the Lutheran Church actually are tied up with a reconsideration of Apostolic Succession and how it relates (or doesn’t) to the office of ministry and the nature of the Church. What did Christ say? How did the apostles demonstrate and live that out in the world? This topic has been covered abundantly here at CAF - thank you all for the discussions.

My concerns with the Roman Catholic Church are centered with my own misgivings on whether I can get to a point where I feel I am in full agreement with everything she teaches. Your catechism is enormous - this could take years. For converts - did a time come when you just said “OK, I assent, and will trust the Holy Spirit to make this plain to my heart and mind?” Because I cannot make this so, by virtue of my own reason.

 

[Micosil]

The religions that spoke more to me were Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Church of the East. With Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy as the clear front runners.

It really started to resonate with me.

It’s curious those religions in particular spoke to you – it is precisely those churches that have legitimate Apostolic succession (their bishops can trace themselves back through an unbroken line all the way to back atleast one of Christ’s Apostles) and valid sacraments.

I accept the primacy of the Petrine office, so I would be Catholic altough I have various Eastern Orthodox leanings and some reservations about some parts of Catholicism.

Which parts of Catholicism do you have reservations about? Perhaps you can start threads on those parts and have questions answered. Have you also investigated the Eastern Catholic Churches?

But the real deal with me is I’m unsure about the existence of a God, I certainly wasn’t raised this way so it’s hard to hold this belief without questioning.

I won’t turn Catholic untill I really believe this.

As it is right now I’m planning to seek adult catechism in about a few years. To deepen knowledge about the faith and to get within a God believing circle of people.

As it is now I’m either very agnostic or catholic.
So I can discuss and see from the perspective of both.

If I discerned that there is a God I’d switch to Catholicism within a second.

imho, Aquinas’s Summa Theologiae presents very good philosophical, logical arguments for the existence of God. Modern authors such as Peter Kreeft give a good summary of these arguments.

 

[Young_Ludovicus]

It’s curious those religions in particular spoke to you – it is precisely those churches that have legitimate Apostolic succession (their bishops can trace themselves back through an unbroken line all the way to back atleast one of Christ’s Apostles) and valid sacraments.

Yeah that’s why those were special to me. I start looking at every religion from it’s source. That’s why I can’t be a protestant.

Which parts of Catholicism do you have reservations about? Perhaps you can start threads on those parts and have questions answered. Have you also investigated the Eastern Catholic Churches?

Do I have to dwell on them all here?
I want Francis to act more like the euccumenical bishop, a primus interpares unlike a despote which previous popes sometimes seemed.
I’m more in favour of Ecclesical Divore instead of Anulled marriage.
I have trouble with some Maryan theology.
The pope’s infallabillity should IMO only be used after a council of many bishops is in agreement. (not a big fan of papal infallabillity but I’m willing to let it pass)
I think females could possibly be deacons. That there is no female diaconate is tradition instead of faith. (as the way I see it)
More possibillities of wider and more diverse cardinals. Cardinals shouldn’t be excluded to bishops, theologian laity male and female should be able to become cardinals.
Harder position against abortion, but more compassion for anticonception.
Diversify christianity. Zaire rite, Anglican rite, Hebrew rite should and could be their own rites in their own way.
Priestly celibacy I would like to see in the same way the Eastern Orthodox do it.
(the archbishop of a specific region should be allowed to decide if there can be married priests in his district)
More seeking union with Orthodoxy and Church of the East.
Less seeking unions with Lutherans and Anglicans.
More focus on the diaconate.

Some might seem unorthodox to some catholics, but please respond to them in a kind manner. I have gotten different responses on this forum.

Yeah, I have investigated the diffent rites of catholicism, but I knew little of them except that they existed.

I’m not inclided to become Eastern Catholic as there’s almost no Eastern Catholics here in my country and I just as happily would turn Latin rite Catholic.

 

[exnihilo]

It seems to me that an “annulment” is just an approved form of “divorce” with a different name. According to Merriam-Webster, a “divorce” is “the ending of a marriage by a legal process”. An annulment is basically the same thing except it is an ecclesiastical legal process and the marriage is ended by a verdict that it never existed in the first place.

I would disagree. These are two separate things. Even in civil law they are distinct. An annulment is finding the marriage never occurred. For the state, or Church, this could be due to closeness of kin, coercion, fraud, bigamy or other reasons. A divorce is ending a valid marriage. I agree that finding a marriage of twenty years to be null seems bizarre. But you have to look at what the Church says results in a valid marriage. If one of the requirements is missing or something prohibited exists then the marriage, by the rules, is null.

I know many marriages are annulled. I also know many are not. I know of a Catholic couple that got married. He was previously married. His first marriage was investigated and not found null. They chose to get married outside of the Church.

I agree that many may look at annulments as the same as divorce. But they really aren’t. The prevalence of annulments does not make it otherwise. But it does suggest marriage is not taken seriously in our culture. That seems to me a painful and obvious truth.

For converts - did a time come when you just said “OK, I assent, and will trust the Holy Spirit to make this plain to my heart and mind?” Because I cannot make this so, by virtue of my own reason.

I spoke with a priest and he presented me two questions that helped me. The first was, if I was a member of the Catholic Church would my doubts justify my separation. The second was, if I was a member of the Catholic Church would any of the non-Catholic arguments be compelling enough to separate. If I was already a Catholic would there be any reason to leave the Church? The answer I realized immediately was no. I am a Westerner. My ancestors were Lutherans. But before that they were Catholics (unless they were Nordic pagans). There is no disagreement on that. So I could imagine an alternate reality where my ancestors remained Catholic. If that were so would I have any reason to leave the Church? Absolutely not.

I came to this conclusion rather quickly. But it took a while before I was willing to actually convert. I asked God to lead me long before I actually talked to the priest. All signs pointed to Catholicism. But it is a different matter to actually take the plunge. I didn’t get to the point where I agreed with all of the Church’s teaching because I can’t know all of the teaching. Yes, I can know the basics. But I can’t know all the subtle teachings. The issue wasn’t did I agree with all the teachings but is this the Church. If it is then the truth she teaches isn’t based on my agreement with them. I struggle with some teachings and may always. But I should be willing to learn and be constantly converted. After all the Church doesn’t welcome us as saints but as sinners.

 

[Share_love]

Hi, Sharing Love. I enjoy conversation like this and I understand the Catholic Church’s teaching about communion. I am very interestes in the Catholic faith biut doctrines such as the Immaculate conception and the Assumption of Mary and several other (questionable doctrines) deter me.

As far as the heretical teachings within our church- the LCMS is very conservative and follow closely to what the Bible tells us aand, I the case of Holy Communion is very clear. Sola scriptura actually is in the control of our Bishops and president- we have our own ideas about scriptural meanings. But our understandings must line up within a group of Bishops.

Thank you so much for your respectful conversation)!!

I’m glad to hear that you are interested in the Catholic Faith! Did you know that Martin Luther himself had a devotion to Our Lady? Here are some quotes for you.

catholicbridge.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.php

As you can see, he taught on the Feast of the Assumption and also had taught that Our Lady was preserved from all stain of sin.

May I ask what other doctrines you find questionable?

Okay, so you have an authority in place that interprets scripture. That’s interesting! In the Catholic Church, we call our teaching authority the Magisterium.

 

[Share_love]

Sitting on the fence is increasingly painful for me. I have been discerning my place in God’s family for some time, and seriously considering conversion to the Catholic Church.

I have been volunteering at a local Catholic parish’s community outreach center (it is a separate organization from the congregation itself) and in fact am on the board of directors. I have resigned my position on the church council at my Lutheran parish because of my internal conflicts. My Lutheran pastor has been very patient with me and we have spoken at some length about my concerns with “authority” in the LCMS.

I have had some discussion with my husband and adult children about my thoughts, and how they feel about it. My husband doesn’t attend church now, and probably won’t in the future. My sons are open to the possibility of conversion.

Those are the externals.

My doubts about the Lutheran Church actually are tied up with a reconsideration of Apostolic Succession and how it relates (or doesn’t) to the office of ministry and the nature of the Church. What did Christ say? How did the apostles demonstrate and live that out in the world? This topic has been covered abundantly here at CAF - thank you all for the discussions.

My concerns with the Roman Catholic Church are centered with my own misgivings on whether I can get to a point where I feel I am in full agreement with everything she teaches. Your catechism is enormous - this could take years. For converts - did a time come when you just said “OK, I assent, and will trust the Holy Spirit to make this plain to my heart and mind?” Because I cannot make this so, by virtue of my own reason.

I’m glad you are considering converting. As for the teachings themselves, I saw so much clear evidence pointing toward the truth of the Church that I submitted to her authority in all things.

You don’t have to read through the catechism in order to come to a place of full agreement. May I suggest RCIA? At your local Catholic church, there will be a series of classes called RCIA, which will let you study Catholicism with absolutely no pressure of converting, but if you get to the end of the classes and you do want to convert, you will be baptized (if you are not currently, validly baptized), confirmed, and receive First Communion.

 

[Patti_M]

Like I said, individual Catholics may have disputes. The teachings themselves cannot and will not contradict themselves, because they came from Christ.

:thumbsup:You are right Share Love. All anyone has to do is open a Catechism to see for themselves what the Church teaches. Debate and argument will always continue, as it has for the past 2 thousand years.

 

[Contarini]

I wouldn’t say I assume this. I would say I conclude this based on the teaching. I just don’t see how it squares with multiple churches. It certainly seems impossible to have any meaning if all of the various churches in my community, where there are scores of denominations, are equally the church. All churches can’t equally be the church when some of those churches claim to be the one, true church.

I assume because of Christ’s prayer that there will be more than one but that this is not how it should be.

And if you are simply saying that there should be one, then we agree.

The Catholic Church claims that the Church is, by definition, indivisible. Its unity is not compromised by the fact that there are baptized Christians in other communities not in union with Rome. And this unity is, supposedly, a visible unity. While in principle I can see how unity, like holiness, could be both a given and something to be sought, it seems to lead to a sort of bait-and-switch in which the Church is identified with the hierarchy for purposes of authority claims and circling the wagons around accepted doctrine, but spoken of in a much more mystical, “invisible” way when discussing the obvious goof-ups of the hierarchy.

So, for instance, if the Pope and bishops teach something authoritatively, that is “the Church” acting. But if the Pope and bishops do a bad job of protecting children from abusive priests, or persecute heretics, or engage in financial scandals–none of those things are acts of “the Church.” I find the definitional games involved in this distinction to be unconvincing and maybe even less than fully honest.

Maybe the visible Church, however we define it, is broken and sinful. Period. Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, you name it.

Edwin