Why are you not Catholic?

[SteveVH]

Priests aren’t mindreaders. Inspite of couples going through classes preparing before a wedding, people can always hide their true self, from other people, particularly their future spouse.

Priests act as a witness. Priests don’t marry the couple. The couple gives the sacrament to each other. THEY marry each other.

Re: nullity of marriage

All sacraments involve form and intent. Both need to be in place.

Suppose

one person’s intent (either bride or groom or even both) at the time the vows are given, is not honest. The one partner has no clue that’s the case in the other partner… Suppose in one’s heart they don’t really believe the marriage vow of until death do us part. Then while one partner can make a beautiful vow to the other , the other partner didn’t reciprocate that vow in return. That deffect means they did not give the sacrament to the other person, therefore a sacramental marriage did not take place.

Down the road, if a divorce takes place, if nullity is to be explored, the marriage would have to go through scruitny by a tribunal to see if nullity is even a possibility.

As an aside
A marriage found to be a valid sacramental marriage can’t be annuiled

Example: My former pastor was married. His wife refused to have children which was a direct violation of the promises she made during her vows. This was enough to annul the marriage - the intent was not there.

 

[rcwitness]

Example: My former pastor was married. His wife refused to have children which was a direct violation of the promises she made during her vows. This was enough to annul the marriage - the intent was not there.

Doesn’t that example have to do with consummation?

Can God validly join two together who abstain from sexual relations? Such as Mary and Joseph.

 

[PRmerger]

Doesn’t that example have to do with consummation?

Can God validly join two together who abstain from sexual relations?

Yes. 2 people are married at the moment their vows are exchanged.

A union becomes indissoluble when it becomes consummated.

 

[rcwitness]

Yes. 2 people are married at the moment their vows are exchanged.

A union becomes indissoluble when it becomes consummated.

Ahh, makes sense.
Theoretically, Mary and Joseph could have separated and married anew at anytime?

Sorry non-Catholic Christian bros. I should allow your obligations to flow…

 

[PRmerger]

Ahh, makes sense.
Theoretically, Mary and Joseph could have separated and married anew at anytime?

No. They were married. They presumably made a vow to love each other for the remainder of their lives.

One ought not take vows one makes lightly.

 

[SteveVH]

Doesn’t that example have to do with consummation?

Can God validly join two together who abstain from sexual relations? Such as Mary and Joseph.

There wasn’t a lack of sexual relations. She was secretly engaged in contraception against his will and against her stated acceptance of children in the marriage. I guess it is pretty much the same thing however.

 

[steve_b]

Example: My former pastor was married. His wife refused to have children which was a direct violation of the promises she made during her vows. This was enough to annul the marriage - the intent was not there.

good example

 

[Young_Ludovicus]

There wasn’t a lack of sexual relations. She was secretly engaged in contraception against his will and against her stated acceptance of children in the marriage. I guess it is pretty much the same thing however.

I had to read this three times, because I thougth you were saying Mary was using contraceptives… ​

The entire Mary and Joseph-thing was pretty weird for me.

But I got a good indication there was a great age gap.
Mary in her 10s/20s, Joseph more into the range of present day retirement.

The idea that they didn’t have intercourse, why they were married and why Joseph wasn’t referred to when Jesus was an adult, it all started to make sense.

Still not a big fan of the Assumption of Mary and the Immaculate conception.

The Assumption of Mary I don’t really understand. How did it happen? Why do we think it happened?

The Immaculate conception I REALLY don’t understand. How come Mary was without sin? By this logic shouldn’t Emma also be without sin.

Is there a precidence for historical christianity in believing this? What do the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrians think about these dogmas?

 

[spedteacherita]

You know, the reason that we feel sometimes encumbered by sin is because we become very sensitive to the presence of sinfulness in our lives and in the world around us. This is a good thing, because it shows that are beginning to feel the True Love of God.

When it comes to doubt, there are many resources that can help you get over it.

**I find it hard to believe that you could not find a nice send of peace from the Lord Jesus and that you would so quickly gave up the beauties of the Catholic faith for Lutheranism. I mean, listen to the name: why would anyone want to join a denomination that was founded by a man (a heretic, nonetheless), when you were already living in God’s Truth.
**
May God bless everyone on this thread and guide them to His Holy Catholic Church!

I’m not sure if I took you to task on this or not but I have to at this point (forgive me if I’ve already done it. Does this statement really add to the conversation at hand? I’m sure Salusas didn’t and I know I didn’t join the Lutheran Church because of the name and because someone in the Catholic Church deems the man who’s name happen to become it’s name. I became a member of this beautfiul Church because of the liturgical sense, the freedom to have a faith without being hammered by hellfire and brimstone and, it’s always helpful, congregants who put out their arms to bring us into the fold. There are so many other reasons but you’d have to read the Book of Concord to understand all of my reasons. I can’t really speak for Salusas but demeaning a church because of its name is really pretty low.

Again, off my soapbox. If I’m kicked out, it’s been nice knowing you all.

God bless!! Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Indeed. Very Catholic, this.

So if you can say that you have changed your moral compass because of what you know God decreed, then you are not part of those who worship at the altar of the Almighty Self.

However, if you are simply searching for a god who conforms to all your whims and fancies, then you are, sadly, part of it.

Very true

 

[spedteacherita]

I do not believe that only Peter was given the keys to the church. I also do not believe that the Catholic church is the only church.

Jesus is not only found at the tabernacle of the Catholic Church. He is not only found within the for walls of a building. Jesus can be accessed anywhere at any time.

This is very well stated! I find Jesus in my home, the building my church is housed in, in my car, at work, He can be found anywhere!!

 

[Share_love]

This is very well stated! I find Jesus in my home, the building my church is housed in, in my car, at work, He can be found anywhere!!

Again, with all respect due to a human being trying to follow truth, there is a grand difference between finding Jesus in the everyday and finding Him in the tabernacle at church. Mother Teresa was very skilled at seeing the face of Jesus in the poor and outcast of society. That is an admirable thing. That said, Jesus Himself said the bread He would give for the life of the world is His flesh, and this has been backed up by many Eucharistic miracles over the Church’s two thousand year history.

 

[spedteacherita]

I had to read this three times, because I thougth you were saying Mary was using contraceptives… ​

The entire Mary and Joseph-thing was pretty weird for me.

But I got a good indication there was a great age gap.
Mary in her 10s/20s, Joseph more into the range of present day retirement.

The idea that they didn’t have intercourse, why they were married and why Joseph wasn’t referred to when Jesus was an adult, it all started to make sense.

Still not a big fan of the Assumption of Mary and the Immaculate conception.

The Assumption of Mary I don’t really understand. How did it happen? Why do we think it happened?
The Immaculate conception I REALLY don’t understand. How come Mary was without sin? By this logic shouldn’t Emma also be without sin.

Is there a precidence for historical christianity in believing this? What do the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrians think about these dogmas?

Where did/does the info that Joseph was the age of retirement and Mary in her teens/20s? Actually, Mary I understand because that was cultural but Joseph I don’t understand.

God bless!!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Again, with all respect due to a human being trying to follow truth, there is a grand difference between finding Jesus in the everyday and finding Him in the tabernacle at church. Mother Teresa was very skilled at seeing the face of Jesus in the poor and outcast of society. That is an admirable thing. That said, Jesus Himself said the bread He would give for the life of the world is His flesh, and this has been backed up by many Eucharistic miracles over the Church’s two thousand year history.

I want you to understand that I appreciate your faith - I haven’t gotten that far, if I ever will. I do understand your meaning of Jesus in the church as you believe in the Presence thru transubstantiation.

If you ask anybody on here I never want to demean anyone’s understanding of their faith, Catholic or not. By discussing with each other we learn and I have learned much since becoming a member on here.

God bless you, Share love!

Rita

 

[Young_Ludovicus]

Where did/does the info that Joseph was the age of retirement and Mary in her teens/20s? Actually, Mary I understand because that was cultural but Joseph I don’t understand.

God bless!!

Rita

Well in modern day times it’s often looked at as a marriage founded on love for the most part. The man en woman are roughly the same age.

In the past in many cultures a man and a woman had to have enough reserves or income to have a marriage with regards to children. Often the groom had to pay for the marriage. If you look at the time the wedding took place and the place where the marriage was, it seems very likely that there is a big gap between ordinary marriages. Marriages aren’t out of love mostly, as they tend to be very rare, but it’s more of an arrangement in which the men provides stability and the women is the caregiver.

I’ve heard some muslims about the topic, they’re understanding was very specific.
Mary: Teenager
Joseph: 80’s / 90’s

I’ve also heard of many from christians that seem to indicate an age gap.
In art in the past you saw an older Joseph and a young Mary, it is relatively short as far as I can recollect that there seems to be little if any age gap in art.

I used to know more about this specific field. But the findings I did, led me to believe there was a huge age gap. Joseph didn’t marry her for sexual lust/love but out of a sense of duty. She was a young pregnant women. He probably was a widow in my understanding, James the Just etc. are all ‘brothers’ of Jesus by being the children of Joseph’s and his late wife’s children.

I searched google and most people seem to agree with a huge age gap.

Around 30 years or more.

I don’t know if my theory about James the Just being Joseph’s son is common.
But I do believe Mary and Joseph didn’t conceive.
As Jesus asks Petrus to take care of his mother.
In Jewish customs at the time this was unheard of, if she had other children.
In scripture relatives of Jesus are mentioned, but this can’t be biological children of Mary as they would be the ones to take care of her.

 

[QuestLove]

Any of you come “this close” to embracing Catholicism, but haven’t been able to? How come?

Did any of you start as Catholic but ended up converting to Eastern Orthodox or Anglican or Lutheran or something else? Why?

Any of you “cafeteria Catholics” and are comfortable with it? How did you reconcile that?

Just trying to find my place in this world!

Born and raised Protestant.
Went to a catholic High school and have a few catholic friends.
I found catholicism interesting so I started reading up on it and I wanted to learn more (hence my joining CAF).
Eventually, I realised I am better serving God in the denomination I am in. I would not join the CC unless I truly agreed with all of its teachings for eg. I disagree with its teachings on the use of contraception.
Also, the faith is really hard to learn. All the jargon and rituals are hard to remember. I went to a mass in high school and I felt like a fish out of water. In my high school only the catholic kids were required to go to mass, so I didn’t have to go back. After that I just went to the non-catholic religious studies classes and services.

In addition all the things I admire in the CC my church does them anyway such as feed the poor, helping the homeless etc. so I think I am happy where I am. But I do admire some aspects of the catholic faith. Just not enough to switch.

 

[wynd]

Still not a big fan of the Assumption of Mary and the Immaculate conception.

The Assumption of Mary I don’t really understand. How did it happen? Why do we think it happened?

The Immaculate conception I REALLY don’t understand. How come Mary was without sin? By this logic shouldn’t Emma also be without sin.

Is there a precidence for historical christianity in believing this? What do the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrians think about these dogmas?

Immaculate conception - No, because we have a different understanding of original sin, which makes the dogma pointless.

Assumption: Most definitely. We celebrate the Dormition (“falling asleep,” that is, the death) of the Theotokos as well as her Assumption. Here are our hymns for the feast: archdiocese.ca/rescs/liturgical-music/5-festal/14-Dormition/Dormition%20Vespers.pdf

Modern internet Catholics try to make the case that the Dormition is somehow optional or an “open question.” As you can see from the hymns, that is not something we teach.

 

[PRmerger]

Eventually, I realised I am better serving God in the denomination I am in. I would not join the CC unless I truly agreed with all of its teachings for eg. I disagree with its teachings on the use of contraception.

I assume, then, that you are also for abortion?

 

[QuestLove]

I assume, then, that you are also for abortion?

No. I do not agree with abortion. But I do not think using a condom is the same thing as murdering a baby.
And my church teaches that abortion is wrong.

 

[PRmerger]

No. I do not agree with abortion. But I do not think using a condom is the same thing as murdering a baby.
And my church teaches that abortion is wrong.

Ah. Very good, then.

You are for condom use but not the Birth Control Pill, the IUD, vasectomy, tubes tied?