Why are you not Catholic?

[PRmerger]

No. I do not agree with abortion. But I do not think using a condom is the same thing as murdering a baby.
And my church teaches that abortion is wrong.

I will say that it’s a slippery slope from contraception use to demand for abortion…for when you separate sex from procreation, the natural answer is: abortion for when birth control fails.

Birth control is the theory. Abortion is the practice.

 

[QuestLove]

I will say that it’s a slippery slope from contraception use to demand for abortion…for when you separate sex from procreation, the natural answer is: abortion for when birth control fails.

Birth control is the theory. Abortion is the practice.

Who says the natural answer is abortion? If I am using some sort of contraceptive and I conceive, I’m pregnant, that’s it. all I’ll do is call up the parents and grandparents…“Guess what, I’m having a baby”…In my family that’s enough excuse for a party. Not everyone goes straight to abortion.
I see nothing wrong with a family using some sort of birth control to plan their family, whether via natural or artificial means. I am just not going to have more kids than I can support. I don’t judge people who have tons of kids and I don’t expect them to judge me either.

 

[PRmerger]

Who says the natural answer is abortion? If I am using some sort of contraceptive and I conceive, I’m pregnant, that’s it. all I’ll do is call up the parents and grandparents…“Guess what, I’m having a baby”…In my family that’s enough excuse for a party. Not everyone goes straight to abortion.

I get that.

But surely you see how the thinking, “I get to have sex without a baby ever having to enter into the picture” ends up to mean: “And when a baby accidentally does enter the picture, I can have an abortion.”

I see nothing wrong with a family using some sort of birth control to plan their family, whether via natural or artificial means.

Well, you’ll have to qualify that since you’re against abortion with “I am for birth control, except for the Birth Control Pill, which can cause abortions.”

Remember, as the side effects of the BCP increased (blood clots, decreased libido, depression, weight gain, mood swings), demand was made to decrease the hormones…which leads to breakthrough ovulation…which leads to sometimes a new life does get created despite being on BCP…which leads to the death of this new life from an inhospitable environment in the womb for implantation.

So please remember to say that you’re for birth control, but not the Pill.

 

[rcwitness]

Who says the natural answer is abortion? If I am using some sort of contraceptive and I conceive, I’m pregnant, that’s it. all I’ll do is call up the parents and grandparents…“Guess what, I’m having a baby”…In my family that’s enough excuse for a party. Not everyone goes straight to abortion.
I see nothing wrong with a family using some sort of birth control to plan their family, whether via natural or artificial means. I am just not going to have more kids than I can support. I don’t judge people who have tons of kids and I don’t expect them to judge me either.

I think it’s extreme to equate contraception to abortion. If I’m not mistaken, St Padre Pio made such a statement.

There is a difference in avoiding conception while experiencing the act which causes it, and taking the life which the act created. But there is also a connection.

I do believe that contraception is wrong. It’s one tough practice to follow!!! But even though I struggle and fail at worse sins than contraception, I would be causing more damage to my relationship with my wife if I were to compromise this morality.

I am convinced we will have a deeper, more loving relationship if we walk by faith in rejecting contraceptives.

The abortion thing comes from the same wordy Spirit. It’s all about avoiding the hardship which comes from wanting the pleasure without the consequences.

 

[PRmerger]

I get that.

But surely you see how the thinking, “I get to have sex without a baby ever having to enter into the picture” ends up to mean: “And when a baby accidentally does enter the picture, I can have an abortion.”

Well, you’ll have to qualify that since you’re against abortion with “I am for birth control, except for the Birth Control Pill, which can cause abortions.”

Remember, as the side effects of the BCP increased (blood clots, decreased libido, depression, weight gain, mood swings), demand was made to decrease the hormones…which leads to breakthrough ovulation…which leads to sometimes a new life does get created despite being on BCP…which leads to the death of this new life from an inhospitable environment in the womb for implantation.

So please remember to say that you’re for birth control, but not the Pill.

And, QuestLove, I would add: you should also say that you’re for birth control, but not the Pill, and not IUDs…

since IUDs also cause abortions.

IUDs do not prevent a new human life from being conceived. They prevent implantation of this new life.

You see how there really is this very, very, very close relationship between advocating for artificial birth control, and embracing abortions.

 

[QuestLove]

I get that.

But surely you see how the thinking, “I get to have sex without a baby ever having to enter into the picture” ends up to mean: “And when a baby accidentally does enter the picture, I can have an abortion.”

Well, you’ll have to qualify that since you’re against abortion with "I am for birth control, except for the Birth Control Pill, which can cause abortions."

Remember, as the side effects of the BCP increased (blood clots, decreased libido, depression, weight gain, mood swings), demand was made to decrease the hormones…which leads to breakthrough ovulation…which leads to sometimes a new life does get created despite being on BCP…which leads to the death of this new life from an inhospitable environment in the womb for implantation.

So please remember to say that you’re for birth control, but not the Pill.

Where did I say I was against the Pill?
And why would I let you or anyone put words in my mouth? No I will not say, “I am for birth control except for the pill”.

 

[PRmerger]

Where did I say I was against the Pill?
And why would I let you or anyone put words in my mouth? No I will not say, “I am for birth control except for the pill”.

Then you are for abortions.

As I already stated, the Pill causes abortions.

It does NOT often stop ovulation.

Conception occurs.

A new life is born.

And then the Pill makes this new human being die.

So either you have to be against the Pill or for abortion.

See?

 

[PRmerger]

Where did I say I was against the Pill?
And why would I let you or anyone put words in my mouth? No I will not say, “I am for birth control except for the pill”.

From the package insert of Yasmin

“COCs lower the risk of becoming pregnant primarily by suppressing ovulation. Other possible mechanisms may include
cervical mucus changes that inhibit sperm penetration and endometrial changes** that reduce the likelihood of implantation.”**
accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2012/021098s019lbl.pdf

So each and every act of intercourse done by a woman on the Pill may result in the creation of a new human life…which is killed when the baby has no place to implant.

That’s an abortion, Quest.

 

[QuestLove]

And, QuestLove, I would add: you should also say that you’re for birth control, but not the Pill, and not IUDs…

since IUDs also cause abortions.

IUDs do not prevent a new human life from being conceived. They prevent implantation of this new life.

The type of contraceptive method I would use is one I would discuss with a spouse after weighing the pros and cons of each.
Whether IUDs, pills, codoms etc. I generally do not think it is my place to tell another person how to plan their family. I know the criteria I would follow if I am choosing one for myself. So the method of birth control I choose is not necessarily the same another person chooses. To go back to the point of my first post, because I would not be able to adhere to the teachings of the CC, I would feel like a hypocrite to join the church and then do everything but obey the teachings of the church.

You see how there really is this very, very, very close relationship between advocating for artificial birth control, and embracing abortions.

Honestly, I do not see how advocating for BC is the same as embracing abortions. My parents came from very big families. I see nothing wrong with it if you can afford it. My father is from a family of 11, my mother from a family of 7 (My grandparents definitely could not NOT afford it). My parents ended up having 3 of us, with the aid of ABCs I am sure. I’m sure you think they went around willy nilly having abortions here and there, but if that’s your preconception of what people who use ABC do, there is nothing I can do to change your mind. The only safe method to not get pregnant if you are not ready to have a child and that is abstinence. Other than that you have to be ready for the outcome, if the method you are using, be it natural or artificial, fails.

 

[QuestLove]

From the package insert of Yasmin

“COCs lower the risk of becoming pregnant primarily by suppressing ovulation. Other possible mechanisms may include
cervical mucus changes that inhibit sperm penetration and endometrial changes** that reduce the likelihood of implantation.”**
accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2012/021098s019lbl.pdf

So each and every act of intercourse done by a woman on the Pill may result in the creation of a new human life…which is killed when the baby has no place to implant.

That’s an abortion, Quest.

??? How can you abort something that has not been implanted yet??

Anyway that’s beside the point, following your logic. In the past when I was prescribed Yaz to treat an unrelated problem or prescribed a particular hypertension medication, was I having an abortion every time implantation did not occur? There are many other medication that do this as well such as some antidepressants, hypertension medications etc. Are we having an abortion everytime implantation does not occur? Makes no sense to me.

 

[Thorolfr]

??? How can you abort something that has not been implanted yet??

Anyway that’s beside the point, following your logic. In the past when I was prescribed Yaz to treat an unrelated problem or prescribed a particular hypertension medication, was I having an abortion every time implantation did not occur? There are many other medication that do this as well such as some antidepressants, hypertension medications etc. Are we having an abortion everytime implantation does not occur? Makes no sense to me.

It doesn’t make any sense to me either…

 

[Tomdstone]

From the package insert of Yasmin

“COCs lower the risk of becoming pregnant primarily by suppressing ovulation. Other possible mechanisms may include
cervical mucus changes that inhibit sperm penetration and endometrial changes** that reduce the likelihood of implantation.”**
accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2012/021098s019lbl.pdf

So each and every act of intercourse done by a woman on the Pill may result in the creation of a new human life…which is killed when the baby has no place to implant.

That’s an abortion, Quest.

Are Roman Catholic women who use the pill excommunicated for procuring an abortion?

 

[rcwitness]

Are Roman Catholic women who use the pill excommunicated for procuring an abortion?

Would that make any difference?

Would that help women understand it is wrong?

It cannot be known if conception occurs, but rather that it is possible.

Do you care if it is possibly conceiving life? If you knew that it is possible, would you consider it wrong?

 

[Reuben_J]

Are Roman Catholic women who use the pill excommunicated for procuring an abortion?

AFAIK, that is not a ground for excommunication. It would be a sin nevertheless, like any other sin, which should be confessed.

 

[PRmerger]

The type of contraceptive method I would use is one I would discuss with a spouse after weighing the pros and cons of each.

Of course.

Whether IUDs, pills, codoms etc. I generally do not think it is my place to tell another person how to plan their family.

Indeed.

I know the criteria I would follow if I am choosing one for myself. So the method of birth control I choose is not necessarily the same another person chooses.

To be sure.

But you do agree that you should be consistent, yes?

And if you are against abortion, you should NOT be for the Pill.

And, just as you, presumably, would tell someone if asked, “I am against abortion”…
to be consistent, you ought to also say, “I am against the Pill”.

 

[PRmerger]

Honestly, I do not see how advocating for BC is the same as embracing abortions.

Well, I haven’t said it’s the same thing*.

I have said that it does lead to abortions because the paradigm is this: we get to have sex without a baby ever entering the picture.

And the right to abort is the logical consequence of the paradigm that belongs to contraceptives. That we’re all entitled to have sex whenever we want and without a baby ever having to enter the picture–that concept leads to, inevitably, the concept that should a baby inadvertently come into being, well, then, since it’s inexpedient, one can destroy this baby. “After all, we did everything we could to prevent this!”

(NB: it is true that** using the Pill can be the same thing as having an abortion***).

The only safe method to not get pregnant if you are not ready to have a child and that is abstinence. Other than that you have to be ready for the outcome, if the method you are using, be it natural or artificial, fails.

Very Catholic, this!

 

[PRmerger]

??? How can you abort something that has not been implanted yet??

What do you think an abortion is, if not killing a child in the womb? And why does something have to be implanted for it to be an abortion?

I’ve never heard that criterion for an abortion.

You have created a new life through an act that you know creates new life. Yet you do something that you know makes it impossible for this new life to live.

What is that if not an abortion?

And your question makes me wonder what your definition of a human person is?

Do you think that something becomes a person only when it’s implanted?

 

[PRmerger]

Anyway that’s beside the point, following your logic. In the past when I was prescribed Yaz to treat an unrelated problem or prescribed a particular hypertension medication, was I having an abortion every time implantation did not occur? There are many other medication that do this as well such as some antidepressants, hypertension medications etc. Are we having an abortion everytime implantation does not occur? Makes no sense to me.

If you engaged in an act that you know creates new life, took a pill that stopped this new life from living…then, yes. Of course.

What else would you call it?

BTW: here’s another package insert from another oral contraceptive which acknowledges that it doesn’t always stop a new life from forming, but rather stops it from living by making an inhospitable environment:

Loestrin

Combination oral contraceptives act by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical mucus (which increase the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which reduce the likelihood of implantation).
drugs.com/pro/loestrin-1-20.html

I would hope that any woman who takes something that messes with her reproductive system would have investigated how it works.

You shouldn’t just take a pill and think it magically works to do what you wish it to.

 

[Contarini]

What do you think an abortion is, if not killing a child in the womb? And why does something have to be implanted for it to be an abortion?

I’ve never heard that criterion for an abortion.

It’s the standard one given by the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology and used by Federal authorities: that pregnancy begins with implantation and so abortion by definition occurs after implantation. It is very common for people to argue that “emergency contraception” not only isn’t abortion but actually prevents abortion based on this definition. If you question this definition, people will call you “anti-science.” At least that’s my experience.

On the other hand, this article indicates that the majority of physicians don’t agree with the “official” definition. I just discovered this article in preparing this post. I wish I’d known about it in the past when I’ve gotten into hot water for suggesting that the “official” definition is open to question.

Edwin

 

[PRmerger]

It’s the standard one given by the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology and used by Federal authorities: that pregnancy begins with implantation and so abortion by definition occurs after implantation. It is very common for people to argue that “emergency contraception” not only isn’t abortion but actually prevents abortion based on this definition. If you question this definition, people will call you “anti-science.” At least that’s my experience.

The standard definition is that human life begins at conception or fertilization.

A zygote [fertilized egg] is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.amazon.com/The-Developing-Human-Clinically-Embryology/dp/0721694128

On the other hand, this article indicates that the majority of physicians don’t agree with the “official” definition. I just discovered this article in preparing this post. I wish I’d known about it in the past when I’ve gotten into hot water for suggesting that the “official” definition is open to question.

Edwin

There you go.