Why are you not Catholic?

[PRmerger]

It’s the standard one given by the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology and used by Federal authorities: that pregnancy begins with implantation and so abortion by definition occurs after implantation. It is very common for people to argue that “emergency contraception” not only isn’t abortion but actually prevents abortion based on this definition. If you question this definition, people will call you “anti-science.” At least that’s my experience.

On the other hand, this article indicates that the majority of physicians don’t agree with the “official” definition. I just discovered this article in preparing this post. I wish I’d known about it in the past when I’ve gotten into hot water for suggesting that the “official” definition is open to question.

Edwin

Incidentally, what would you call it, Edwin, if you do something which prevents a new human life from living in the only environment it can live?

(If someone puts a newborn baby out in the woods, an environment clearly inhospitable to newborns, is this not immoral?)

If it’s not an abortion, what would you call it?

And, nomenclature aside, is it moral to do this?

 

[Contarini]

The standard definition is that human life begins at conception or fertilization.

A zygote [fertilized egg] is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.amazon.com/The-Developing-Human-Clinically-Embryology/dp/0721694128

I’m glad to see that. Again, that gives a good source to cite when people tell me that I’m an anti-intellectual bigot because I disagree with the definition used by official medical organizations and in public policy.

But the poster you were responding to did not make up this definition.

Edwin

 

[steve_b]

It’s the standard one given by the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology and used by Federal authorities: that pregnancy begins with implantation and so abortion by definition occurs after implantation. It is very common for people to argue that “emergency contraception” not only isn’t abortion but actually prevents abortion based on this definition. If you question this definition, people will call you “anti-science.” At least that’s my experience.

On the other hand, this article indicates that the majority of physicians don’t agree with the “official” definition. I just discovered this article in preparing this post. I wish I’d known about it in the past when I’ve gotten into hot water for suggesting that the “official” definition is open to question.

Edwin

Scientifically speaking, life doesn’t begin with implantation. Life begins with fertilization.

Here’s what happens

once the membrane has been penetrated by the sperm,

• it becomes impermeable to penetration by other sperm.
• Following penetration,
• a series of events set the stage for the first cell division. The single-cell embryo is called a “zygote.”
• Over the course of the next seven days, the human embryo undergoes multiple cell divisions in a process called mitosis.
• At the end of this transition period, the embryo becomes a mass of very organized cells called a blastocyst

this is before implantation

From : Fertilization and Embryo Development

I personally think science has always known this, they just didn’t want to accept it.

 

[Contarini]

Life doesn’t begin with implantation. Life begins with fertilization.

Fertilization and Embryo Development

Why are you having such trouble hearing what I’m saying?

I am not arguing that life begins at implantation.

I am pointing out that this is the definition used for the purposes of public policy, and that if you criticize it in a discussion with pro-choice people (or just people who think that “emergency contraception” is OK) you will be hit over the head with an argument from authority and told that you are an anti-science bigot. Hence it’s not at all surprising that a poster shows up here assuming this definition.

You and PRMerger are right to cite these sound sources, but I’m not the one you need to be arguing with.

Edwin

 

[steve_b]

Why are you having such trouble hearing what I’m saying?

I am not arguing that life begins at implantation.

The argument is life begins BEFORE implantation.
C:

I am pointing out that this is the definition used for the purposes of public policy, and that if you criticize it in a discussion with pro-choice people (or just people who think that “emergency contraception” is OK) you will be hit over the head with an argument from authority and told that you are an anti-science bigot. Hence it’s not at all surprising that a poster shows up here assuming this definition.

You and PRMerger are right to cite these sound sources, but I’m not the one you need to be arguing with.

The problem is, science has been I would argue deliberately mute on what it’s known for who knows how long.

 

[Contarini]

The argument is life begins BEFORE implantation.

You’re still not getting it. Google “emergency contraception is it abortion” and you get links like this and this, which assume or assert an “implantation” definition.

I’ve actually had trouble coming up with the so-called “official” definitions from medical organizations. So maybe this is all pro-choice hot air. But it dominates public discussions of this issue, and PRMerger appeared never to have heard of it.

Edwin

 

[Tomdstone]

Would that make any difference?

Would that help women understand it is wrong?

It cannot be known if conception occurs, but rather that it is possible.

Do you care if it is possibly conceiving life? If you knew that it is possible, would you consider it wrong?

I was commenting on things like this that I am reading here:

(NB: it is true that** using the Pill can be the same thing as having an abortion***).

 

[PRmerger]

I’m glad to see that. Again, that gives a good source to cite when people tell me that I’m an anti-intellectual bigot because I disagree with the definition used by official medical organizations and in public policy.

But the poster you were responding to did not make up this definition.

Edwin

Fair enough.

Again, irrespective of the nomenclature, do you think it’s moral to engage in an act that you know can result in a baby, then place it in an environment that it can’t live in?

 

[steve_b]

You’re still not getting it. Google “emergency contraception is it abortion” and you get links like this and this, which assume or assert an “implantation” definition.

I’ve actually had trouble coming up with the so-called “official” definitions from medical organizations. So maybe this is all pro-choice hot air. But it dominates public discussions of this issue, and PRMerger appeared never to have heard of it.

Edwin

With all due respect, You’re the one not getting it.

You’re equating** life** with “pregnancy”. Life begins with the fertilization of an egg.

From your first site

“No, using emergency contraceptive pills (also called “morning after pills” or “day after pills”) prevents pregnancy after sex. It does not cause an abortion. (In fact, because emergency contraception helps women avoid getting pregnant when they are not ready or able to have children, it can reduce the need for abortion.)”

Thats talking about pregnancy. Human life begins with fertilization / conseption. Pregnancy is considereed after implantation. But life begins with the fertilizaion of the egg. THAT’s a scientific fact.

Fertilization
If one sperm does make its way into the fallopian tube and burrows into the egg, it fertilizes the egg. The egg changes so that no other sperm can get in.
At the instant of fertilization, your baby’s genes and sex are set. If the sperm has a Y chromosome, your baby will be a boy. If it has an X chromosome, the baby will be a girl.
webmd.com/baby/guide/understanding-conception

How much time after sexual intercourse can fertilization occur?

fertilization can take only 20 minutes for the fastest sperm to reach the waiting egg, and new life begins THEN. A boy or a girl’s life begins THEN, not days later. It can happen within 20 minutes after intercourse

 

[Contarini]

Fair enough.

Again, irrespective of the nomenclature, do you think it’s moral to engage in an act that you know can result in a baby, then place it in an environment that it can’t live in?

No, of course not.

I still don’t know why you are arguing with me.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

With all due respect, You’re the one not getting it.

You’re equating** life** with “pregnancy”.

I’m not equating anything. I am pointing out to you and PRMerger an extremely common argument, allegedly backed by official usage. I brought it up because PRMerger said that she had never heard anyone claim that pre-implantation “emergency contraception” wasn’t abortion. In fact, not only to people commonly claim this, but they treat it as an assured fact.

I have said this about three or four times now. You have no excuse for misunderstanding me.

You are shooting the messenger.

Edwin

 

[PRmerger]

No, of course not.

I still don’t know why you are arguing with me.

Edwin

Who’s arguing with you? Certainly not me.

I am simply pointing out that the CC is right on the issue of the Birth Control Pill, with regard to folks who claim to be against abortion but for birth control.

No one who is against abortion ought to be using the BCP (or encouraging his wife to do so.)

Agreed?

 

[Contarini]

Who’s arguing with you? Certainly not me.

I am simply pointing out that the CC is right on the issue of the Birth Control Pill, with regard to folks who claim to be against abortion but for birth control.

No one who is against abortion ought to be using the BCP (or encouraging his wife to do so.)

Agreed?

That is certainly why my wife has never used the Pill, and why I have strongly encouraged her in this refusal.

Edwin

 

[PRmerger]

That is certainly why my wife has never used the Pill, and why I have strongly encouraged her in this refusal.

Edwin

And let’s add this: the Catholic Church has been the leading voice in articulating this message.

I am uninformed on this, but are there any other Christian denominations which also teach that artificial birth control is immoral?

 

[Contarini]

And let’s add this: the Catholic Church has been the leading voice in articulating this message.

I am uninformed on this, but are there any other Christian denominations which also teach that artificial birth control is immoral?

There are a lot of small conservative groups which go beyond the Catholic position and reject NFP as well. (The Duggars, of course, are the most high-profile representatives of this point of view.) And this is perhaps more common in other parts of the world. Some of our Romanian evangelical friends clearly looked on my family with a bit suspicion because I was an only child, and one lady interrogated my mother on whether she used the “calendar,” though it took my mother a while to figure out what she meant.

Edwin

 

[PRmerger]

There are a lot of small conservative groups which go beyond the Catholic position and reject NFP as well. (The Duggars, of course, are the most high-profile representatives of this point of view.)

Ah, yes.

And this is perhaps more common in other parts of the world. Some of our Romanian evangelical friends clearly looked on my family with a bit suspicion because I was an only child, and one lady interrogated my mother on whether she used the “calendar,” though it took my mother a while to figure out what she meant.

Edwin

 

[rcwitness]

Contraception is kinda like sexual bulimia

 

[steve_b]

I’m not equating anything. I am pointing out to you and PRMerger an extremely common argument, allegedly backed by official usage. I brought it up because PRMerger said that she had never heard anyone claim that pre-implantation “emergency contraception” wasn’t abortion. In fact, not only to people commonly claim this, but they treat it as an assured fact.

I have said this about three or four times now. You have no excuse for misunderstanding me.

You are shooting the messenger.

Edwin

maybe it’s the way you were phrasing this.

 

[PRmerger]

maybe it’s the way you were phrasing this.

Yeah. He wasn’t very clear.

 

[Tomdstone]

And let’s add this: the Catholic Church has been the leading voice in articulating this message.

What percentage of married American Catholic women subscribe to the teaching on ABC?