Why are you not Catholic?

[lonegreywolf20]

I suggest you look into Natural Family Planning.

Call your local Catholic diocese (you don’t need to be Catholic) to find the nearest NFP education center.

No thank you.

I will be getting a vasectomy. The Lutheran church isn’t against me getting a vasectomy.

 

[PRmerger]

No thank you.

I will be getting a vasectomy. The Lutheran church isn’t against me getting a vasectomy.

Of course you are free to do whatever you wish.

I am simply offering the Catholic position, pointing out that the option for “abstaining” doesn’t have to be the only option.

BTW: would you be ok if one of your children wanted to amputate her perfectly functioning limb because she wanted use a wheelchair for the rest of her life?

 

[SalusaSecondus]

No thank you.

I will be getting a vasectomy. The Lutheran church isn’t against me getting a vasectomy.

Male contraception is scheduled to be available in 2017. Why not wait around before you make a permanent decision? My buddy got a vasectomy and he is now in near constant pain from it. I know it’s rare, but it made me rethink the decision.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

What does this hyperbole have to do with anything?

No, I wouldn’t, but one doesn’t have anything to do with the other. I am not cutting anything off of me.

We have come to a point in our lives where we do not want anymore children. I already have a total of seven children. Two is more than enough for my wife and I because of her illness. We do not need anymore children as it is already tough on her as it is not being able to be the mother that she wants to be. She is generally too fatigued to do anything with them that a normal mother can do. Most of the care of our children already falls on me, along with cleaning the home, cooking our meals, driving everyone everywhere. Our calendar is full of doctor’s appointments for both my children and my wife.

All the above on top of me trying to earn at least a small income to add to my wife’s disability.

Natural family planning allows for the chance of a child being produced, we are no longer open to having more children, for the reasons listed above.

We have talked this over with our pastor and our pastor says that we are fine and clear.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Male contraception is scheduled to be available in 2017. Why not wait around before you make a permanent decision? My buddy got a vasectomy and he is now in near constant pain from it. I know it’s rare, but it made me rethink the decision.

Pretty sure that my county run health plan will not cover it (they tend not to cover many things including contraception) and I will not be able to afford it as our little income doesn’t allow for much extra in our lives.

As it is I am several months out from getting a vasectomy because it is something I have to save up for. We are also trying to get a home and out of our increasingly dangerous apartment complex. So money is tight as we save for a down payment and closing fees.

 

[PRmerger]

What does this hyperbole have to do with anything?

It’s a logical application of your view which is: I get to have surgery to mutilate a perfectly healthy organ because I wish to.

No, I wouldn’t, but one doesn’t have anything to do with the other. I am not cutting anything off of me.

It’s irrelevant about the cutting a part off vs severing a connectiong, but…

what if she wanted to snip her spinal cord–that’s the equivalent of a vasectomy, right?

Incidentally, this is not merely a hypothetical. There are indeed folks who wish to do this.

ibtimes.com/chloe-jennings-white-woman-body-integrity-identity-disorder-wants-surgery-be-paraplegic-photo

If you wish to sever your vas deferens for your own personal reasons, why would you oppose your daughter wishing to sever her spinal cord for her own personal reasons?

 

[PRmerger]

We have come to a point in our lives where we do not want anymore children. I already have a total of seven children. Two is more than enough for my wife and I because of her illness. We do not need anymore children as it is already tough on her as it is not being able to be the mother that she wants to be. She is generally too fatigued to do anything with them that a normal mother can do. Most of the care of our children already falls on me, along with cleaning the home, cooking our meals, driving everyone everywhere. Our calendar is full of doctor’s appointments for both my children and my wife.

None of these are contraindications to using NFP.

All the above on top of me trying to earn at least a small income to add to my wife’s disability.

NFP is certainly cheaper than surgery.

Natural family planning allows for the chance of a child being produced, we are no longer open to having more children, for the reasons listed above.

You do know that vasectomies also allow for the chance of a child being produced, yes?

vasectomy-information.com/pregnancy-after-vasectomy/

Any time a sperm is released in the proximity of an egg within a sexual act, there’s a chance for a baby to be created.

And vasectomies don’t stop sperm from being produced, nor released 100% of the time.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

None of these are contraindications to using NFP.

NFP is certainly cheaper than surgery.

You do know that vasectomies also allow for the chance of a child being produced, yes?

vasectomy-information.com/pregnancy-after-vasectomy/

Any time a sperm is released in the proximity of an egg within a sexual act, there’s a chance for a baby to be created.

And vasectomies don’t stop sperm from being produced, nor released 100% of the time.

There is a higher failure rate with NFP. NFP allows for the chance for a child to be conceived, that is why it is allowed in the Catholic church.

We DO NOT WANT anymore children. We are NOT open to producing another child. A vasectomy is a better option that NFP because it has a higher success rate.

All your reasons are mute anyway since I am no longer catholic and I do not have to follow Catholic rules.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

It’s a logical application of your view which is: I get to have surgery to mutilate a perfectly healthy organ because I wish to.

It’s irrelevant about the cutting a part off vs severing a connectiong, but…

what if she wanted to snip her spinal cord–that’s the equivalent of a vasectomy, right?

Incidentally, this is not merely a hypothetical. There are indeed folks who wish to do this.

ibtimes.com/chloe-jennings-white-woman-body-integrity-identity-disorder-wants-surgery-be-paraplegic-photo

If you wish to sever your vas deferens for your own personal reasons, why would you oppose your daughter wishing to sever her spinal cord for her own personal reasons?

Because severing of the spinal cord leads to complete or part paralysis. Getting a vasectomy is still no where in the same ballpark. You are using an extreme example to prove your point and it will not work.

Getting a vasectomy is not because I wish to, I do not want to get one, but I recognize that if I don’t I put my wife’s health at grave risk, not to mention that we cannot afford or have the ability to care for another child.

Again, all your reasons are invalid anyway because I am no longer Catholic. I am not bound by Catholic rules.

 

[PRmerger]

There is a higher failure rate with NFP. NFP allows for the chance for a child to be conceived, that is why it is allowed in the Catholic church.
We DO NOT WANT anymore children. We are NOT open to producing another child. A vasectomy is a better option that NFP because it has a higher success rate.

No. When NFP is used correctly there is just as good a chance of avoiding pregnancy as vasectomy.

usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/natural-family-planning/what-is-nfp/nfp-basic-information.cfm

webmd.com/sex/birth-control/news/20040505/vasectomies-pregnancy-prevention

All your reasons are mute anyway since I am no longer catholic and I do not have to follow Catholic rules.

The Catholic “rules” are not rules because they are arbitrarily decided by the CC.

They are rules because they are consonant with truth, wolf.

So anyone who wants to live a life consonant with truth should take the Catholic “rules” of morality quite seriously.

Saying you don’t need to follow Catholic rules because you’re not Catholic is like saying you don’t need to be for feeding the poor because you’re not Catholic, and that, too, is a Catholic rule.

 

[PRmerger]

Because severing of the spinal cord leads to complete or part paralysis.

This is true, but it’s a nonsequitur, wolf.

Getting a vasectomy is still no where in the same ballpark. You are using an extreme example to prove your point and it will not work.

Explain to me what you’d tell your daughter when she says, “Why can’t I have that surgery to sever my cord? I have a very good reason for it. Just like you had a very good reason for severing your spermatic cord”.

Getting a vasectomy is not because I wish to, I do not want to get one, but I recognize that if I don’t I put my wife’s health at grave risk, not to mention that we cannot afford or have the ability to care for another child.

Of course you wish to have a vasectomy. No one, not even your church, is telling you you MUST have a vasectomy.

It is elective surgery.

Just like a surgery to sever one’s spinal cord.

Again, all your reasons are invalid anyway because I am no longer Catholic. I am not bound by Catholic rules.

Catholic rules say you should not murder.

Are you free to murder because you aren’t Catholic?

 

[lonegreywolf20]

No. When NFP is used correctly there is just as good a chance of avoiding pregnancy as vasectomy.

usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/natural-family-planning/what-is-nfp/nfp-basic-information.cfm

webmd.com/sex/birth-control/news/20040505/vasectomies-pregnancy-prevention

The Catholic “rules” are not rules because they are arbitrarily decided by the CC.

They are rules because they are consonant with truth, wolf.

So anyone who wants to live a life consonant with truth should take the Catholic “rules” of morality quite seriously.

Saying you don’t need to follow Catholic rules because you’re not Catholic is like saying you don’t need to be for feeding the poor because you’re not Catholic, and that, too, is a Catholic rule.

Nothing you will say will change my mind, about vasectomy or the fact that it is a Catholic church rule on contraception.

We have talked with out Lutheran pastor and he says we are in the clear. That should be good enough for you.

End of story.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

This is true, but it’s a nonsequitur, wolf.

Explain to me what you’d tell your daughter when she says, “Why can’t I have that surgery to sever my cord? I have a very good reason for it. Just like you had a very good reason for severing your spermatic cord”.

Of course you wish to have a vasectomy. No one, not even your church, is telling you you MUST have a vasectomy.

It is elective surgery.

Just like a surgery to sever one’s spinal cord.

Catholic rules say you should not murder.

Are you free to murder because you aren’t Catholic?

All hyperbole and I will no longer respond to hyperbole.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

My wife is asking me to stop responding as it is not charitable the way we are going back and forth. She says we are not being good examples of Christ to the outside world going back and forth.

I am just going to agree to disagree from this point on.

 

[PRmerger]

Nothing you will say will change my mind, about vasectomy or the fact that it is a Catholic church rule on contraception.

We have talked with out Lutheran pastor and he says we are in the clear. That should be good enough for you.

End of story.

I understand that, wolf.

I am simply saying that if you connect the dots, you will not come to the same position that you are espousing now.

Right now, you are simply adamantly sticking to a position that has no coherence, because you want to do what you want to do.

I want to let you know that there are some times that doing the RIGHT thing is doing what we DON’T FEEL LIKE doing.

It may make me feel better, for example, to walk out on my husband when we’ve had a fight.

But that may not be the right thing to do, even if my friend or pastor told me that I could do this.

And it would be wrong for me to get mad when someone else says, "Didn’t you make a vow before God to stick with your husband?

And it would be wrong for me to say: “Nothing you say will change my mind”.

 

[PRmerger]

All hyperbole and I will no longer respond to hyperbole.

Jesus used hyperbole. Often, in fact.

 

[PRmerger]

My wife is asking me to stop responding as it is not charitable the way we are going back and forth. She says we are not being good examples of Christ to the outside world going back and forth.

I am just going to agree to disagree from this point on.

I am sorry that you feel you cannot respond in charity.

There are numerous posters here who are able to offer disagreeing positions without getting riled up and testy.

Look for the posters who have over 20,000 posts. Usually they are the ones who are able to dialogue with respect.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

I am sorry that you feel you cannot respond in charity.

There are numerous posters here who are able to offer disagreeing positions without getting riled up and testy.

Look for the posters who have over 20,000 posts. Usually they are the ones who are able to dialogue with respect.

She wasn’t speaking of just me.

Both of us going back and forth is what is wrong.

As I said, from here on out I am agreeing to disagree with you and no more than that.

 

[PRmerger]

My wife is asking me to stop responding as it is not charitable the way we are going back and forth. She says we are not being good examples of Christ to the outside world going back and forth.

I am just going to agree to disagree from this point on.

Incidentally, we are commanded to always have a reason for the hope that is within us.

We are commanded to use our reason and intellect.

Commanded, wolf.

Saying that you will no longer offer reasons for your position is not Biblical at all.

Now, of course, it is the judicious thing to step away if one cannot continue in charity.

But that’s always something we Christians, esp. if we have sacramental grace, can have access to.

 

[PRmerger]

She wasn’t speaking of just me.

Both of us going back and forth is what is wrong.

It’s absolutely NOT wrong.

In fact, it is commanded upon us to do so.