Why are you Protestant?

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Yes, I was just listening to the Conversion of Scott Hahn, and he said one of the major reasons he converted was because of the bible alone concept… WHERE in the bible do you find this? The only places really point to tradition… I’m just wondering why everyone claims that the bible is the major authority when Jesus really put the authority in the apostles, his CHURCH mainly.
The church is no longer the focus in most Protestant religions. There is no liturgy, and there is no real presence of the Lord.
 
I have to add along the matter of faith and works. If you have faith, real faith, where Christ lives in you, by default, the ways of the world are alien to your being, they have no place in your heart, their ways are left behind. This in turn, makes the evil ways of the world by default detested in your presence, you will in fact be as he is which produces good works as it’s fruits, for that is the nature of Christ. The confusion here is where people just try to do good works, thinking what they are doing outside of Christ amounts to something, of which it amounts to filthy rags in God’s eyes. The same thing with faith, if it’s false, or has no depth and hold on you as an individual creation of God, you will cling to the ways of the world, for you have not changed inside as to your very nature, thus the seed is planted among thorns, and the defining difference here, you are not changing yourself, you are being changed within from our Lords presence…
 
Yes, I was just listening to the Conversion of Scott Hahn, and he said one of the major reasons he converted was because of the bible alone concept… WHERE in the bible do you find this? The only places really point to tradition… I’m just wondering why everyone claims that the bible is the major authority when Jesus really put the authority in the apostles, his CHURCH mainly.
I think I would be right in saying that, while Jesus may have put authority in the hands of the apostles, 2 things have happened since; 1) the apostolic era ended, and 2) the apostles left us with scripture.
For Lutherans, scripture is the final norm, upon with all teaching must not conflict. This is why we confess the creeds, honor the ECF’s, and agree with the early councils, for the most part.
Sola scriptura, therefore, does not eliminate Tradition. It simply requires that tradition, as we continue to move further away from the apostolic era, maintains consistency with what the apostles left us - scripture

Jon
 
The church is no longer the focus in most Protestant religions. There is no liturgy, and there is no real presence of the Lord.
I think the response you’ll get is Christ should be the focus, not the Church. But I get what you mean, and from a Lutheran perspective, where the liturgy and the real presence are maintained (Catholic opinion on the validity of our sacrament is noted), we are quite aware of the importance of the Church in providing sanctifying grace.

Jon
 
It didnt take long for this thread to become a Protestant bashing thread.
Sad commentary indeed.
 
For the ecumenciall Lutherans. How can you unite with the Catholic Faith and still be Lutherarn in what Luther considered the most important article?

Volume Three — Article 4 Volume 3 | Archive | Home

The Importance of Justification by Faith
Selected from the writings of Martin Luther *

“This doctrine [justification by faith] is the head and the cornerstone. It alone begets, nourishes, builds, preserves, and defends the church of God; and without it the church of God cannot exist for one hour…. For no one who does not hold this article – or, to use Paul’s expression, this ‘sound doctrine’ (Titus 2:1) – is able to teach aright in the church or successfully to resist any adversary . . . this is the heel of the Seed that opposes the old serpent and crushes its head. That is why Satan, in turn, cannot but persecute it.”

“Whoever departs from the article of justification does not know God and is an idolater . . . For when this article has been taken away, nothing remains but error, hypocrisy, godlessness, and idolatry, although it may seem to be the height of truth, worship of God, holiness, etc.”

“If the article of justification is lost, all Christian doctrine is lost at the same time. And all the people in the world who do not hold to this justification are either Jews or Turks or papists or heretics; for there is no middle ground between these two righteousness: the active one of the Law and the passive one which comes from Christ. Therefore the man who strays from Christian righteousness must relapse into the active one, that is, since he has lost Christ, he must put his confidence in his own works.”

“When the article of justification has fallen, everything has fallen. Therefore it is necessary constantly to inculcate and impress it, as Moses says of his Law (Deut. 6:7); for it cannot be inculcated and urged enough or too much. Indeed, even though we learn it well and hold to it, yet there is no one who apprehends it perfectly or believes it with a full affection and heart. So very trickish is our flesh, fighting as it does against the obedience of the spirit.”

“The article of justification and of grace is the most delightful, and it alone makes a person a theologian and makes of a theologian a judge of the earth and of all affairs. Few there are, however, who have thought it through well and who teach it aright.”

“Of this article [justification] nothing may be yielded or conceded, though heaven and earth and whatever will not abide, fall to ruin; for ‘there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved,’ says St. Peter (Acts 4:12); ‘and with His stripes we are healed’ (Is. 53:5). And on this article all that we teach and practice is based, against the pope, the devil, and the world. That is why we must be very certain of this doctrine and not doubt; otherwise all is lost, and the pope and the devil and all things gain the victory over us and are adjudged right.”

"The article of justification must be learned diligently. It alone can support us in the face of these countless offenses and can console us in all temptations and persecutions. For we see that it cannot be otherwise: the world is bound to be offended at the doctrine of godliness and to cry out constantly that nothing good comes of it, since ‘the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him.’ "

“In short, if this article concerning Christ — the doctrine that we are justified and saved through Him alone and consider all apart from Him damned — is not professed, all resistance and restraint are at an end. Then there is, in fact, neither measure nor limit to any heresy and error.”

“There is this about the article of grace that if one diligently and sincerely remains loyal to it, it keeps one from falling into heresy and from undertaking anything against Christ or His Christendom. For with it comes the Holy Spirit, who enlightens the heart by it and keeps it in the true, certain understanding, so that it is able precisely and plainly to distinguish and judge all the other articles of faith and forcefully to sustain and defend them.”

“The papacy is shaken and shattered nowadays, not through these tumults of the sectaries but through the preaching of the article of justification, which has not only weakened the kingdom of Antichrist but has also till now sustained and defended us against its power.”
  • Selected from What Luther Says, an anthology compiled by Edwald M. Plass, Vol.2, pp.702-704, 715-718.

presenttruthmag.com/archive/III/3-4.htm
I think the Catholics have come a long way from “As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory shall spring.” The space between the position Luther espoused and the modern Catholic position on justification/sanctification - at least as Catholics on these boards articulate it - is not as great as it might seem.

Heck, there was even a Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification signed by many Lutheran groups and the Roman Catholic Church. Sadly, my synod was not one of them, an action I personally disagree with.
 
I think I would be right in saying that, while Jesus may have put authority in the hands of the apostles, 2 things have happened since; 1) the apostolic era ended, and 2) the apostles left us with scripture.
For Lutherans, scripture is the final norm, upon with all teaching must not conflict. This is why we confess the creeds, honor the ECF’s, and agree with the early councils, for the most part.
Sola scriptura, therefore, does not eliminate Tradition. It simply requires that tradition, as we continue to move further away from the apostolic era, maintains consistency with what the apostles left us - scripture

Jon
Who wrote the books of Luke and Mark?

Why do you consider them to be scripture?
 
Maybe we should chuck the Roman Catholic and Protestant labels, then no-one gets bashed. 👍
Errors should be bashed.

When Catholic and Protestants claim different truths, someone is wrong.

Does anyone want to be wrong?
 
I’m in RCIA now, definitely going to convert. But until January, I was Free Methodist (a conservative Methodist group).

A year ago, I would have said:
“I’m Protestant because I was raised that way, and because I think Methodism is mostly true. I can’t accept purgatory, papal infallibility, or prayers to the saints and Mary. I wish I could be Catholic, but I just can’t accept those things.”
I didn’t really have a problem with apostolic succession, faith + works, baptismal regeneration… I didn’t really believe in the Real Presence but thought that communion ought to me more than what we did in our church. I was coming to accept the idea of Scripture + Tradition, and was fascinated by the history, structure, beauty, and liturgy of the church.

Several years ago, I would have said:
“I think many Catholics are real Christians but they think a lot of weird things, like praying to Mary and the saints - sounds like idolatry. They think their Pope is perfect, but only God is perfect. And they think you have to work your way into heaven, and that their teachings are more important than the Bible.”

Thankfully, God brought me to the fullness of his truth after my Methodist church closed!
 
I’m in RCIA now, definitely going to convert. But until January, I was Free Methodist (a conservative Methodist group).

A year ago, I would have said:
“I’m Protestant because I was raised that way, and because I think Methodism is mostly true. I can’t accept purgatory, papal infallibility, or prayers to the saints and Mary. I wish I could be Catholic, but I just can’t accept those things.”
I didn’t really have a problem with apostolic succession, faith + works, baptismal regeneration… I didn’t really believe in the Real Presence but thought that communion ought to me more than what we did in our church. I was coming to accept the idea of Scripture + Tradition, and was fascinated by the history, structure, beauty, and liturgy of the church.

Several years ago, I would have said:
“I think many Catholics are real Christians but they think a lot of weird things, like praying to Mary and the saints - sounds like idolatry. They think their Pope is perfect, but only God is perfect. And they think you have to work your way into heaven, and that their teachings are more important than the Bible.”

Thankfully, God brought me to the fullness of his truth after my Methodist church closed!
I’m a former Methodist myself and I would definitely describe my previous views as anti Catholic, not that this is the norm for Methodists.

I was totally ignorant about Church history and true Catholic teaching.

What a joy to discover, and keep discovering!
 
I think the response you’ll get is Christ should be the focus, not the Church. But I get what you mean, and from a Lutheran perspective, where the liturgy and the real presence are maintained (Catholic opinion on the validity of our sacrament is noted), we are quite aware of the importance of the Church in providing sanctifying grace.

Jon
I agree with you. Lutherans have a majority of what they need, of more sanctifying grace, if you know what I mean. 😉 lol.
I wasnt trying to bash what you believe. I was just trying to state some people are so focused on finding verse for verse evidence for their beliefs (which everyone can do!!) instead of following traditions, for Catholics it is sent down through the apostles to bishops, popes, priests etc. So we can recieve the sacraments of sanctfying grace that Jesus set up for the Church. What I mean is that Jesus is the center of the Catholic Mass (Church) which is what I meant by all of that 🙂
 
Errors should be bashed.

When Catholic and Protestants claim different truths, someone is wrong.

Does anyone want to be wrong?
I’m not trying to bash, I’m trying to state that many people get in fights about certain things, etc. Like where does this Catholic belief come from… We will say our bible verses, a protestant will say theres… and supposedly one claims theirs is better.
There is a reason the Catholic Church has been around for so long, with a magisterium, a pope, a Cathechism, places stating our beliefs, and where it can be found.
This stuff wasnt made up over night, it is part of a TRADITION that has been passed down, that CAN be found in the bible as well.
But trying to fight about who is right and wrong is kinda pointless sometimes. As no one will be able to claim anything with people who claim the bible alone is all we need. That is why I said where does this come from? Where is this in the bible? I would like someone to do research on this topic.

Jon NC explains things very calm, and he explains why the Lutheran church believes what they believe. His church still has sacraments (and many people can go into valid vs. non valid),
but I am mostly speaking to people who believe that the bible is all you need, and a believers baptism or something. Because JESUS wanted more then that.
 
This could be a long response, but the long and short of it comes down to theological convictions, namely the “5 solas” of the reformation (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas). I have given the Roman Catholic church some thought and have had friends convert to it, which really prompted me to investigate it. I looked at parts of the council of trent, and decided that it was in contradiction to what I believed the bible taught. And holding to ‘scripture alone’ as the ultimate authority, and not the church (protestant, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, or otherwise), I wouldn’t join a church that held the belief that there is any authority next to scripture.
Sola Scriptura is actually not taught in the Bible.

For one thing, the Bible that you now hold to be the authority was not such an authority until the 400s. And for you to hold this as the authority upon which to rest your belief, then you have to hold as authority the Church that declared the canon authoritative and that happens to be the Catholic Church.
 
My vision of Lutheranism is that it is fundamentally a Catholic movement and that we are by definition Catholics who are just waiting for the rest of the Catholics to catch up with us on some theological issues so we can go back home.
If the Catholic Church is HOME (going by your phrasing), then it is Lutheran theology that is missing something and needs to catch up. But it is not even a matter of catching up because it the bar has already been set by Christ by establishing the Catholic Church. If anything. the Lutherans lowered the bar so now they need to raise it back up to where it originally was.
 
Reason 2 is that I do not believe Catholic/Orthodox theology. If I were to become convinced that either the Catholic or Orthodox churches is in fact exclusively the the church of Jesus Christ (everybody else being of inferior status), then it would logically follow that your theology is correct. However, I do not believe that either denomination is exclusively the church. Instead I believe that when the Lord Jesus Christ looks at His Church, that He is not looking at a denomination, and instead is looking at all who love Him and have faith in Him.
You do not believe in Catholic/Orthodox theology? But then based on what I have seen in your posts in the other threads, you know practically ZILCH about Catholic theology. The more appropriate phrasing for your position “I do not know Catholic/Orthodox theology so I don’t follow it”.

But if you stick around long enough (and keep your mind and your heart open) then you will learn more about Catholic theology.
Reason 3 is that I am reasonably happy in my current church, imperfect as it may be.
The Muslims / Hindus / Buddhists are presumably all happy in their particular "churches’ as well but it does not mean that they are in the true of God.
We do a reasonably good job at spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ in our community and throughout the world. We do a reasonably good job at enabling Christians to grow in Jesus Christ.
Only to an extent. You and them get only so close to Jesus then no more unless you accept the entire, the whole Gospel of Jesus. You have to accept eveything Jesus said even the ones that might not make you “happy” because they are hard teachings.

Christianity is not a feel good religion. To go for that sort one always has the new age sort.
 
That’s not entirely so. The canon was worked out by the Early Christian Church which happened to be East AND West before they ever split into Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. Much has chaned in the Catholic church since then.
St Ireneus was the first to propose a canon (he included the Shepherd of Hermas in this canon) around the 200s in answer to the gnostic canon that Marcion came up with. Changes were made at Carthage wherein Shepherd of Hermas was taken out and Jude and some other book was added. This remains the canon to this day.

From the very beginning was the Catholic Church (Roman and Orthodox as one). In the 1000s the Orthodox church separated over a dispute to involved to mentioned here.

The Roman Catholic church is a mislabeling which I think the Anglicans were responsible for (but I need to verify that). The correct terminology is the Catholic Church. There are several rites but there is only one Catholic Church.
 
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