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ProudArmyWife
Guest
Cardenio’s original message deserves a bump 
cardenio:
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koda
Guest
miguel delgado:
Yes, but this means that you have to respect their right to their own opinions - no matter how offensive you find them. Otherwise, as the OP said, you don’t stand a chance of doing anything but convincing them that their original opinions are correct. We have to follow the example of Jesus and do our best to remember the He loves them too.
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koda
Guest
I think the OP is a great example of saying what you feel without being mean. Generally, mean people need to be told they are mean - and I’ve seen people on this forum that I would have to label as just plain mean spirited, who seem to roam from post to post eager to say “GOTCHA!” - some people get their jollies this way. Sad. 
It goes without saying that God loves them too.
It goes without saying that God loves them too.
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miguel_delgado
Guest
Are there any irishs here?? can you tell us the problems over there when the protestants march in catholic cities they conquer centuries ago???
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Church_Militant
Guest
miguel delgado:
Easy there amigo…as an Irish American I say let’s let “the troubles” quietly die off as they deserve to. That was more political than religious. :irish1:
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RNesin
Guest
miguel delgado:
More seriously, this is the one instance we see - that I am aware of in my sparse Biblical education - of him being loud and physical in his anger. (I dont’ really think he was angry in the woman/dog/scraps at the table scene; I think I’ve heard/read that He was anticipating a teaching opportunity for those around Him - correct me, anyone?) Maybe, then, we should only allow ourselves one time in our lives to be loud and angry, and only when we’re protecting others or truly protecting what’s Holy, as Jesus was?
Believe me, I’m not holier than thou. As a mom of two young boys, I can be a Meanie. Notice the capital M. Sometimes I brag that I went to Mean Mom School (I only brag about it when they are complaining of having to do something that is good for them…like go to bed, or eat their vegetables, or obey!)
And I need to work on my anger for sure. I definitely agree that the way to win others over is in love. When people are yelling at you, you can humble yourself. There are many more examples of Jesus humbing himself and showing love when He was being mocked. He did not attempt to defend himself by yelling and calling others “ignorant” (when they were, in fact, very ignorant of God’s plans, of which He Himself had full knowledge) or “blind and deaf” (when the Messiah they’d been watching for was standing right in front of them!). And still He maintained this humble posture to the cross!!
We should be more prepared to follow THIS example of dealing with others’ scorn than the bullwhip version. And in the meantime, we should be arming ourselves with wisdom and a generous supply of love to be able to reply with righteous anger when it is truly necessary - which doesn’t mean when our feelings are hurt, or (ahem) when we’re tired and grumpy (referring to my mommy self).
This will be my focus for today - control the yelling.
Cardenio, thanks for the catalyst.
I’d be cautious to use this one example of Jesus being loud in his anger as a warrant to become loud in our anger at others. After all, He is God of the Universe and is somewhat more entitled to righteous anger than are we!
More seriously, this is the one instance we see - that I am aware of in my sparse Biblical education - of him being loud and physical in his anger. (I dont’ really think he was angry in the woman/dog/scraps at the table scene; I think I’ve heard/read that He was anticipating a teaching opportunity for those around Him - correct me, anyone?) Maybe, then, we should only allow ourselves one time in our lives to be loud and angry, and only when we’re protecting others or truly protecting what’s Holy, as Jesus was?
Believe me, I’m not holier than thou. As a mom of two young boys, I can be a Meanie. Notice the capital M. Sometimes I brag that I went to Mean Mom School (I only brag about it when they are complaining of having to do something that is good for them…like go to bed, or eat their vegetables, or obey!)
And I need to work on my anger for sure. I definitely agree that the way to win others over is in love. When people are yelling at you, you can humble yourself. There are many more examples of Jesus humbing himself and showing love when He was being mocked. He did not attempt to defend himself by yelling and calling others “ignorant” (when they were, in fact, very ignorant of God’s plans, of which He Himself had full knowledge) or “blind and deaf” (when the Messiah they’d been watching for was standing right in front of them!). And still He maintained this humble posture to the cross!!
We should be more prepared to follow THIS example of dealing with others’ scorn than the bullwhip version. And in the meantime, we should be arming ourselves with wisdom and a generous supply of love to be able to reply with righteous anger when it is truly necessary - which doesn’t mean when our feelings are hurt, or (ahem) when we’re tired and grumpy (referring to my mommy self).
This will be my focus for today - control the yelling.
Cardenio, thanks for the catalyst.
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spiritblows
Guest
As far as Jesus with the whip, that’s a poor analogy. For one thing, we aren’t Jesus, and another thing is that we are not God. See what I mean? We are not Jesus, nor are we God. Getting mad at people we disagree with is probably more a sign of our sinful egotism, and not some divine rightous anger anyways. Getting mad and saying insulting things to people we claim to love and want to convert isn’t a good witness to the faith. Showing patience, love, and understanding is more in line with the Gospel.
Yes, the original post was well written.
Yes, the original post was well written.
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AgnesDay
Guest
Cardenio–I have been accused of a lot of things, including being “mean”, which as a school administrator generally means not giving a parent the goody he or she thinks the student just has to have. In apologetics, it’s become painfully obvious that when Protestants or atheists “diss” my faith, it’s in heaps and bundles so huge that it would take two weeks to deal with the diatribe. You can’t answer that kind of attack except by prayer and silence, because it isn’t motivated by a hunger for truth. I usually do best when I just comment on one thing and try to explain the justification for (e.g., praying to Mary) in common-sense terms. Then, I try to leave it alone.
The point isn’t to win an argument or to win our neighbor. Most often it’s to open up a tiny chink for God to work in.
This leads me to ask a question: Is the “s” word at the bottom of Cardenio’s signature so widely accepted now that I shouldn’t find it offensive on a Catholic website?
Keep on keepin’ on, Cardenio.
AD
The point isn’t to win an argument or to win our neighbor. Most often it’s to open up a tiny chink for God to work in.
This leads me to ask a question: Is the “s” word at the bottom of Cardenio’s signature so widely accepted now that I shouldn’t find it offensive on a Catholic website?
Keep on keepin’ on, Cardenio.
AD
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spiritblows
Guest
Agnes
I think the word ‘sucks’ or ‘to suck’, in the meaning of ‘it’s lousy’, or ‘unacceptable’, is losing some of it’s vulgar connotation, esp with young people. Just as the word ‘diss’ , which you used,has been absorbed into everyday speech. The word ‘diss’, as you know originated in Black English. They used it originally, changing the noun ‘disrespect’, into a verb meaning ‘to show disrespect’, such as “she disrespected me”. Then, this got shortened to ‘diss’, and then it became a part of maintream English, used by white folks too. Who can pass up a great addition to the language?
But I would caution the OP that using the word ‘sucks’ is considered vulgar by many older folk and it might be wise to censor it’s use in mixed company.
I think the word ‘sucks’ or ‘to suck’, in the meaning of ‘it’s lousy’, or ‘unacceptable’, is losing some of it’s vulgar connotation, esp with young people. Just as the word ‘diss’ , which you used,has been absorbed into everyday speech. The word ‘diss’, as you know originated in Black English. They used it originally, changing the noun ‘disrespect’, into a verb meaning ‘to show disrespect’, such as “she disrespected me”. Then, this got shortened to ‘diss’, and then it became a part of maintream English, used by white folks too. Who can pass up a great addition to the language?
But I would caution the OP that using the word ‘sucks’ is considered vulgar by many older folk and it might be wise to censor it’s use in mixed company.
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javelin
Guest
Thank you, cardenio, for your post, and I hope you continue to grow in wisdom and faith as the years roll by.
I agree with all of what you said, but I would like to add a bit.
It is often difficult for people (in general) to avoid offending others, even when it is not intended at all. Many people take any challenge to their beliefs as an offense to them. Personally, I try not to, but it is hard. When someone directly challenges my belief it is almost like they are accusing me of being too stupid or insincere to see the real truth. It is very difficult to get around that plain obstacle in attempts at “intellectual conversion” (by which I mean someone changing their beliefs due to study and discussion, rather than through experiencial means). Even sincere attempts at saying “I’m not criticizing YOU, or your INTENT, or your FAITH; rather, I am disagreeing with the things you were taught – your BELIEFS” often fall short of diffusing emotional reactions to sincere questions of different faiths.
I have seen many times on these forums where things that people posted were taken offense to when they were not, IMHO as an “outsider” to the discussion, inflamatory or “mean” at all. Yet offense is taken. I myself have been vilified for trying to defend a poster who was, IMHO, being unfairly attacked.
You must also remember that, although we generally should not openly accuse people of being closed-minded, there are many who are so firmly set in their beliefs that they are closed-minded. While finger-pointing doesn’t help (I envision your children bickering analogy – “you’re closed-minded!”, “No, YOU’RE closed-minded!!”,“No, …”), there are people who frequent these forums NOT in an effort to learn about God, but in an effort to proselytize THEIR god to everyone else. Those people, perhaps, need to be approached differently when trying to share our faith with them.
The bottom line, which you stated very well, is that evangelization is NOT about proving we are right and everyone else is wrong. It is about bringing people to the One True God. In that quest, we must ALWAYS act in the other person’s best interests (which is True Love) in how we communicate our faith to them. Each individual may have a completely different avenue through which God’s Love and Truth will reach them, and it is incumbent upon us to lovingly come to know the people so we may learn how they can be reached.
Peace,
javelin
I agree with all of what you said, but I would like to add a bit.
It is often difficult for people (in general) to avoid offending others, even when it is not intended at all. Many people take any challenge to their beliefs as an offense to them. Personally, I try not to, but it is hard. When someone directly challenges my belief it is almost like they are accusing me of being too stupid or insincere to see the real truth. It is very difficult to get around that plain obstacle in attempts at “intellectual conversion” (by which I mean someone changing their beliefs due to study and discussion, rather than through experiencial means). Even sincere attempts at saying “I’m not criticizing YOU, or your INTENT, or your FAITH; rather, I am disagreeing with the things you were taught – your BELIEFS” often fall short of diffusing emotional reactions to sincere questions of different faiths.
I have seen many times on these forums where things that people posted were taken offense to when they were not, IMHO as an “outsider” to the discussion, inflamatory or “mean” at all. Yet offense is taken. I myself have been vilified for trying to defend a poster who was, IMHO, being unfairly attacked.
You must also remember that, although we generally should not openly accuse people of being closed-minded, there are many who are so firmly set in their beliefs that they are closed-minded. While finger-pointing doesn’t help (I envision your children bickering analogy – “you’re closed-minded!”, “No, YOU’RE closed-minded!!”,“No, …”), there are people who frequent these forums NOT in an effort to learn about God, but in an effort to proselytize THEIR god to everyone else. Those people, perhaps, need to be approached differently when trying to share our faith with them.
The bottom line, which you stated very well, is that evangelization is NOT about proving we are right and everyone else is wrong. It is about bringing people to the One True God. In that quest, we must ALWAYS act in the other person’s best interests (which is True Love) in how we communicate our faith to them. Each individual may have a completely different avenue through which God’s Love and Truth will reach them, and it is incumbent upon us to lovingly come to know the people so we may learn how they can be reached.
Peace,
javelin
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cardenio
Guest
AgnesDay and spiritblows
I go to high school and I hear that word every day… some words I know to be offensive, so I don’t use them, but I’m not really up-to-date on my slang usage. It’s embarrassing sometimes when I say something I don’t realize has a second meaning. spiritblows’s definition of the word was what I’d meant. I’ve never heard it used in any other way, but, because it’s slangy, I probably should have looked into its recent etymology.
I saw the phrase somewhere, couldn’t say where exactly, and, well, it’s a pun, and as a shakespeare fanatic, I love puns. Perhaps you are right; I may remove it (pending future comments).
javelin - It is true; many people say they are looking for truth when they are really trying to force their view of God on everybody else. I made the point because I see a lot of Catholics doing that, too. I couldn’t give you a ratio or number because, being Catholic, I cannot give an unbiased opinion. I guess my point was that if you (you=anyone) are going to be annoyed with someone else’s “method of evangelization” (for lack of a better term), then you have a responsibility to watch and make sure you’re not doing the same thing.
everyone - it is perfectly acceptable to add to what I said!! That’s the beauty of Catholicism - almost 2,000 years of people building on each other’s ideas.
I go to high school and I hear that word every day… some words I know to be offensive, so I don’t use them, but I’m not really up-to-date on my slang usage. It’s embarrassing sometimes when I say something I don’t realize has a second meaning. spiritblows’s definition of the word was what I’d meant. I’ve never heard it used in any other way, but, because it’s slangy, I probably should have looked into its recent etymology.
I saw the phrase somewhere, couldn’t say where exactly, and, well, it’s a pun, and as a shakespeare fanatic, I love puns. Perhaps you are right; I may remove it (pending future comments).
javelin - It is true; many people say they are looking for truth when they are really trying to force their view of God on everybody else. I made the point because I see a lot of Catholics doing that, too. I couldn’t give you a ratio or number because, being Catholic, I cannot give an unbiased opinion. I guess my point was that if you (you=anyone) are going to be annoyed with someone else’s “method of evangelization” (for lack of a better term), then you have a responsibility to watch and make sure you’re not doing the same thing.
everyone - it is perfectly acceptable to add to what I said!! That’s the beauty of Catholicism - almost 2,000 years of people building on each other’s ideas.
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Glenn_Lego
Guest
What is sad though is I’ve never seen it in the health food section of any store!No! Chocolate is good for you!
Here is why:
Chocolate makes you happier.
Happier people are healthier.
Therefore, chocolate makes you healthier.
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twiztedseraph
Guest
Hey I’m a 16 year old Aussie, alot of what you say seems to be alright, though I can’t say I agree completely. I can see things from the people you describe’s point of view. The truth knocked the Apostle Paul of his horse, it enlightens, alures and makes us fall inlove with it. After all it is God’s word! Thats why we (you heard me we) get a little defensive when people havee misguided views, we merely want them to have that joy in Christ we have. That feeling of I am part of a line that goes back to Abraham. Sure there are better ways to evangelise but, I can certainly relate to both sides.
Pax Vobis Semper.
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contramundum
Guest
I am not mean but i do lose my patience sometimes when people decline to enter the Catholic Church, even as they realize it is the True (only) Church Christ established. Sometimes Catholics can seem mean but instead, what they are is passionate about the Church (truth…). I do appreciate what you have to say. It is very true that we are supposed to try to win the person and not the argument. But sometimes we cannot do either and that is frustrating… (etc.).
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