Why aren't Catholics blessed?

[McKevin]

McKevin;

Maybe you missed my earlier message, but have you thought of attending a Life Teen Mass or a Charismatic Mass?

They have all kinds of hootin’ and hollerin’ - they even do it in tongues. You’d feel right at home, I think, and it is a perfectly valid Mass.

Yes, sorry that I did over look that post. Ironically enough, though, speaking in tongues was not part of the charismatic Nazarene services, and that every word was understood really made the services all the more real…

I will look for a Life Teen/Charismatic Mass in my area and see what I find.

Thanks JMcRae!

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McKevin

 

[Ghosty]

There was a homily by Fr. Frank Pavone on EWTN where he talked about preaching in protestant churches about ProLife issues. He said there are always a lot of “Amens!” coming from the congregation, and how much he really liked that! Unfortunately, if you’re the only one, it could be perceived by others or the priest as being ostentatious, even if it’s coming from your heart. IMHO it’s better not to stand out, for the sake of humility. But as someone else mentioned, there’s always the Charismatics where you might find others who desire to express themselves this way.

Remember, though, that general preaching isn’t the same as a homily. The homily is more than a preaching of a message, which is all that Fr. Pavone would be doing in a Protestant church. The homily is the Living voice of the Church to expand on the Readings of Scripture. It is not a speech nor a talk, and shouldn’t be compared to such.

Peace and God bless!

 

[McKevin]

I know it would bother me a lot to hear someone make such an exclaimation during a homily, or any other time during the Liturgy.

While external exuberance is quite appropriate at certain times, even during religious events, I don’t believe the Mass is the right place for them. This doesn’t mean being rigid or unfeeling, however. During the Mass we come into a direct encounter with God, and His Grace fills us up and pours out from us. We should hold ourselves in rapt attention of this Grace, and let the Love swell within us.

In the Latin tradition, this has always been through a devout silence. Even our mystics who have encountered God directly go into a state we call “ecstasy”, in which there is no outward movement nor action at all. They are pulled completely free of themselves and taken to a direct vision of God. Outward exuberance is not an indicator of the direct experience of Grace in our tradition.

This isn’t to say that it can’t be, just that it’s not the way it has manifested in thousands of years of our tradition. This isn’t to say that exuberance is sinful either, as it is quite appropriate in many occaisions, even religious. The Liturgy is a time for us to be pulled from ourselves, however, and to focus our entire being on God. The homily is a part of the Liturgy, it’s not merely a speech given between the Readings and the Eucharist. It is a direct part of the Readings, a continuation of them. We do not shout when the Word of God is being read, nor should we shout when the Word of God is being spoken in the homily. During religious speeches this would be appropriate, but not during the Liturgy when we are hearing the very voice of God.

Anyone who’s been to a Catholic party knows that we are more than able to let our hair down and let our religious fervor show in a zest for life. The Liturgy is our time to remove ourselves from ourselves, however, and whooping and shouting and wild gestures are not conduscive to this kind of spiritual connection for most of us. If you really, really feel the need to express the Faith in such a way, I recommend going to a Charismatic Mass or such, though they are not a common practice among Catholics. I think you’ll find that environment more to your comfort.

I would suggest, however, that you may find a deep richness in stillness and contemplation. It has been the way of our greatest saints, and has proven itself time and time again to be a very rich path to God. During the Liturgy, try to quiet yourself completely, and focus on the Grace that is Shining forth from within and without, like the most beautiful sunrise you’ve ever seen. Receive the light with joy, and reflect on how it changes you from within, letting go of the noise and movement of yourself. Think of it like a bubbling stream of water, which any sound would drown out, and let that stream take hold of your mind and grow louder and louder until it’s all you can hear. That is the traditional spirituality of the Latin Catholic Church, and it’s a very beautiful and profound one

Peace and God bless!

Jeez. You are gifted with words. Thanks for the great response. Another paragraph and I may have cried.

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McKevin

 

[runandsew]

I was raised in a very spirit-filled protestant church. During our services, if someone was moved by the preaching, praying, or singing then we referred to them as being blessed (happy). I

love Mass, but find most people attending to be rigid and just going through motions. Am I free to say “amen” during a homily or raise my hands during a song or prayer?

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McKevin

Catholics can’t even clap in unison to gospel music .



Did you ever watch Steve Martin in the movie “The Jerk”
He must have been Catholic.

 

[carol_marie]

Hey runandsew,
cool fish!

 

[Ghosty]

Jeez. You are gifted with words. Thanks for the great response. Another paragraph and I may have cried.

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McKevin

Thank you so much for your kind words!

I just want to add that silence during Mass does NOT mean you should be silent outside of it. On the contrary! The Mass is our time to be filled with Grace, with God’s presence, and when we leave we should be utterly “on fire”.

In a sense, the Mass is like being in a furnace, and going out into the world is like bringing the hot coals, us, to the cold. When you go out into the world, PREACH! Show the world the Grace that God has brought to you, and He wants to bring to everyone.

Those people who are truly rigid and simply going through the motions, you’ll often notice that they don’t bring the Faith with them when they leave. That is how you can really tell who isn’t being “moved” by the Spirit. Those that may seem rigid in Mass might actually simply be taking in the sunrise and the sound of the stream, and when they leave you can see this by the fact that they want to share it with everyone

Unfortunately many Catholics don’t embrace this aspect of the Faith, and they do become rigid and mechanical in their worship. They’re often the first ones that need the “fire” of those who have been absorbing the Grace of the Liturgy. We must bring this Grace to others, when we’ve been fortunate enough to receive it. That is where the term “Mass” comes from, in fact. It’s from the Latin “to send forth”, which is what happens to us after we are filled with Grace.

That being said, I still recommend checking out Charismatic Masses. They might be exactly what you need spiritually. I just put all this forward so you might be able to appreciate the traditional approach a bit, and perhaps find an avenue of strong spiritual growth.

Peace and God bless!

 

[runandsew]

I love all the clipart on the Hermanoleon Clipart website.

 

[runandsew]

Ghosty,
That was a very good reply, thank you.

 

[Tonks40]

There’s lots of room in the Catholic Church for all of us.

I have to agree with this statement. There’s a parish a couple of miles north of me where they hold a mass with gospel music. Lots of clapping, hand-waving, very charismatic. But when it came to the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the silence was so deafening, you could hear a pin drop! There is a lot of joy for Our Lord in that parish, and also in my parish.

Sometime, I think, when people are oriented to attending spirit-filled services outside of the Church, when they come to a Catholic Mass, they see people who appear to be “robots” and going through the motions, and naturally, they come to the conclusion that these people must not live with the love of God in their hearts. The Church recognizes that people do have different ways of approaching God, and they are all at different places in their journeys of faith. What we must be thankful for (because I’m sure God is) is that they are there attending Mass in the first place. When I reverted back to the Church from non-denominationalism, I, too, became a little distressed of the lack of expression during Mass, and the seemingly lack of faith the parishioners seem to exhibit. But one day, as I walked into the Church to get ready to sing for Mass, I saw one of my choir members, someone who has been there a long time, sitting very quietly in the pew. I came up to her and asked her what’s wrong. She looked at me, smiled, and replied, “I’m praying.”

Since then, I’ve never questioned anyone’s intentions as to why they behave the way they do at Mass. I just give joyous thanks in my heart!

 

[jmcrae]

Sometime, I think, when people are oriented to attending spirit-filled services outside of the Church, when they come to a Catholic Mass, they see people who appear to be “robots” and going through the motions, and naturally, they come to the conclusion that these people must not live with the love of God in their hearts. The Church recognizes that people do have different ways of approaching God, and they are all at different places in their journeys of faith. What we must be thankful for (because I’m sure God is) is that they are there attending Mass in the first place. When I reverted back to the Church from non-denominationalism, I, too, became a little distressed of the lack of expression during Mass, and the seemingly lack of faith the parishioners seem to exhibit. But one day, as I walked into the Church to get ready to sing for Mass, I saw one of my choir members, someone who has been there a long time, sitting very quietly in the pew. I came up to her and asked her what’s wrong. She looked at me, smiled, and replied, “I’m praying.”

Since then, I’ve never questioned anyone’s intentions as to why they behave the way they do at Mass. I just give joyous thanks in my heart!

Yes, I agree. One of the most spirit-filled people I know sounds almost exactly like the Darlek when she’s praying aloud - it’s not intentional, it’s just that she’s having such an intense experience of God that she almost can’t speak, for the joy of it.

But to listen to her, and as a stranger when I first met her I really did think, that she was just repeating the lines mechanically, with no thought. So, we really can’t tell, and we have no right to judge others - God works in mysterious ways with all of us.

 

[Zooey]

I have been reading about St Teresa of Avila. (I have always been reading about St Teresa, but anyhow…).
One of the things I read was, that she used to have 2 of her nuns assigned to sit on either side of her during Mass. She would be so overcome with emotion at times, that she was afraid she might jump to her feet, pull out her everpresent castanets, & start dancing…The 2 sisters were to grab her & hold her down.

Also, one Sunday, when St John of the Cross arrived at the convent to celebrate Mass, she met him at the gate…The other sisters waited in the chapel…And waited, & waited, and waited…Finally, some of them went out to the courtyard to see what was wrong. There, at the gate, stood St Teresa & St John, standing looking up toward Heaven with tears of joy on their faces…St John’s homily was on the Trinity, & when he told St Teresa about it, they were both so overcome with emotion, that they just stood there, gazing upwards, weeping for the wonder of it…

There are reasons that Your Friendly Neighborhood Methodist loves St Teresa of Avila so very much. I recommend reading anything & everything she ever wrote, & much of what has been written about her. (St John of the Cross is harder going by far, but try his poetry first, after you make your way through Teresa…).

God bless all here.

 

[StCsDavid]

I have shared this feeling with some fellow parishioners and they have said that they also feel constrained at Mass and sometimes feel like saying an “amen” or lifting their hands in praise. I wonder, since protestantism hasn’t been around too long in the scope of things, then what was the Mass like 500 years ago when there was no alternative way to worship? Did all the hand raising, amen-shouting Christians leave the Catholic church or did this develop after the reformation?

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McKevin

One other thing to remember about the mass is that it’s not about the individual…so a person shouting out an Amen could distract from the true purpose of the mass by drawing attention to that individual. Once you really get a handle on how awesome the mass really is, the sense of humility is wonderfully overwhelming. To kneel in the true presence of Christ; to join the angels in glory and praise; to encounter Christ in the Eucharist; it’s all beyond personal expression. We are in communion as the mystical body of Christ.

The hand waiving and shouting was an invention of the Protestant faiths. Remember, the mass used to be said in Latin and most folks didn’t know Latin…still don’t.

 

[kellie]

I was raised in a very spirit-filled protestant church. During our services, if someone was moved by the preaching, praying, or singing then we referred to them as being blessed (happy). I

love Mass, but find most people attending to be rigid and just going through motions. Am I free to say “amen” during a homily or raise my hands during a song or prayer?

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McKevin

Hi McKevin,

As others have said, the rest of the congregation might be shocked if suddenly there was a huge “Amen”

However, this is what I try and do, to express my love for God loud.

I say all responses and all the prayers as if I am delivering a speech.

I say it loud so that if I was on the pulpit I would be heard by all.

And I add expression to it, especially the Our Father, the Creed, and the Glory to God.

And instead of just mumbling “Blessed be God forever” during the consecration like most do, I ephasise the word “blessed”.

I don’t like how most mumble their way through Mass.

I know it is a solemn service, but there are expressions we use to respond to what the Priest is doing, that should be said aloud, with conviction, with zeal, and with love.

 

[cecilia97]

It is so eye-opening reading this thread…to hear other faiths’ takes on these expressions of being “filled with the spirit”, I didn’t realise it was that important to people. I’m a cradle Catholic and, while I’m not really very conservative, my take on hand-raising and vocalizing at church is that it’s used to draw attention to oneself and takes attention away from the important action going on. I occasionally attend a Life Teen Mass where people do a lot of that and I just think it looks like “Look at me, look how moved and sensitive and holy I am, how in tune with God unlike anybody who doesn’t put his hands up in the air.” Some of us just express things inwardly or quietly.

That’s just what it looks like to me. Not saying that’s the intent on everyone who does it, and to each his own, really.

cecilia

 

[finn34]

IMHO it’s better not to stand out, for the sake of humility. QUOTE]

Amen.

 

[Axion]

I wonder, since protestantism hasn’t been around too long in the scope of things, then what was the Mass like 500 years ago when there was no alternative way to worship?

500 years ago the mass was fairly solemn, but people had more lively celebrations outside of Church on festival days and during processions and other activities. Rember the Medieval Church was far more involving in those respects than the modern Church, and practically everyone would be involved in Guilds the arrangement of events, processions, pilgrimages, mystery plays etc. So a solemn Church service was only part of their pattern of worship.

I once went to a special mass in the Old Sarum rite, which was used in England before the reformation (and before the Tridentine Mass) It was much like some Orthodox services today, with all the singing and responses being done in the sanctuary between clergy and choir, with virtually no responses at all from the congregation, who were meant to watch and pray silently for most of the time.

Did all the hand raising, amen-shouting Christians leave the Catholic church or did this develop after the reformation?

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McKevin

Yes. Long after the Reformation. Prior to 1800 most protestant services were much more solemn and staid than Catholic ones. Not only images were forbidden but many churches also forbade musical instruments, hymns or any other “distractions” other than unaccompanied chamting of the Psalms. Anyone hand clapping or shouting out would have been taken out and put in the stocks - or worse!

The Revival meetings of the 1800s were where livelier participation, lively hymn tunes, clapping and shouting out began in some protestant churches. Although this was moderated until about 1890 when the Pentecostal movement began in the USA. many (if not most) Protestant Churches are still very solemn

 

[puzzleannie]

I was raised in a very spirit-filled protestant church. During our services, if someone was moved by the preaching, praying, or singing then we referred to them as being blessed (happy). I

love Mass, but find most people attending to be rigid and just going through motions. Am I free to say “amen” during a homily or raise my hands during a song or prayer?

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McKevin

in classic western Catholic spirituality, emotions are generally viewed as poor guides to one’s actual internal spiritual condition, and as transitory responses rooted in the senses. This does not mean that an emotional spontaneous reaction such as singing, raising hands, alleluia etc.is wrong or inappropriate, merely that it is just that, transitory and spontaneous. It may or may not indicate a deeper internal transformation or spirital progress, or it may be just a momentary reaction on the surface. It is certainly arrogant and immature to judge the spiritual condition of those we observe in worship by either the presence or absence of such demonstrations. We fall into a trap when we look around at others and compare, using any criteria, their spiritual experience or state with our own. The little old lady in the black babushka praying her rosary in the back row, or the young mother struggling with a baby and a toddler, or the middle aged man in a business suit with a look of abstraction on his unsmiling face, may actually be in a deeper, more contemplative communion with the Lord than those who are enthusastically singing and following the responses. My point is simply that judging others is a waste of time and not a proper use of our resources at Mass.

 

[Cat]

I think a lot of what some of you are saying about “silence” and “solemnity” is merely cultural.

Yes, the Latin mass is beautiful. But it’s not the norm anymore, and that’s according to the teachings of the Church, not me.

I have a friend from Puerto Rico and she says that the masses there are quite different with hand-clapping and other “noise” and “motions.”

From what I understand, the Catholic Church not only allows cultural influences in mass, but encourages them. They don’t force Puerto Ricans to sing Latin and sit quietly during mass. There is nothing more inherently spiritual about “quiet.” It’s just a personal preference.

My friend said that when it’s time for Holy Communion in Puerto Rico, there are no orderly lines. People rush up to the front, trying to be the first to receive Jesus. There’s a crush of people all eager to taste the Bread of Heaven. She said she had a hard time with the “lines” when she first came to the States: it felt like no one was really interested in Jesus.

Now that would seem just awful to many of us, but it was the norm to her. Can you see how much of what we say is “the right way to do things” is actually just “the way we are used to and the way we prefer?”

The Bible says that we are to put the preferences of others above our own. I Corinthians 10 :24, Phillipians 2: 2-4, Ephesians 4, etc.

Now some of you might respond, “Well, the culture in the U.S. is quiet during mass.”

Says who?!

In the last fifty years, secular rock and pop music has made a lot of people, even elderly people, dancers and clappers. I think it’s more counter-cultural to be quiet nowadays. Our cultural norm is noise and dance and movement.

Of course, the Church is to be counter-cultural. But I don’t think that’s talking about behavior during mass as much as it is behavior outside of the Church doors. Counter-cultural is being pro-life, pro-marriage, pro-children, pro-faith. Clapping or not clapping during mass is not going to make us shine like lights in a dark world. It doesn’t really matter.

In my Midwestern church, which has 7000 members, we see all kinds of stuff during our masses. People say “amen,” especially the converts, and the priests say, “Thank you for that!”

People clap during the homily if a particularly pithy point is raised; I remember the first time it happened (I’m a convert, so I was still fairly new in the Church), the priest had just finished denouncing pervert priests and saying that they should be prosecuted according to the laws of the land. The people didn’t merely clap, they gave him a standing ovation.

We’ve had several priests come to do missions at our church, and these priests will actually encourage the congregation to say “Amen!”

We see people raising their hands during songs all the time.

I’ve seen people kneeling or standing during parts of the mass that normally we don’t kneel or stand during.

One of the things that is being pushed in our diocese is bringing your BIBLE to church. Now that’s definitely NOT what Catholics do, right? But is it wrong to do so? Of course not!

In case you are wondering, our Bishop is known as one of the most conservative Bishops in the world. He is on top of liturgical abuse; a few years ago, one of our priests started inserting a different prayer into the Liturgy, and he was told to stop by the bishop. And he did.

Also, our diocese is bursting with seminarians. We actually have a surplus of priests.

So the Bishop must be doing something right.

Anyway, here is my suggestion to McKevin–within the norms of your particular mass, do everything with all your heart. Sing with enthusiasm and joy and fervor. Hear the homily, meditate upon it during the silent times, and discuss it after church. Pray the prayers with rapt attention to the Lord. Offer the Sign of Peace with love and peace in your heart. Receive our Lord with thanksgiving and tears.

Also, I agree with all the others–find the local Charismatic Catholic group and join it. I have a lot of friends in this group, and they usually hold their more visual displays in during mass, but allow themselves to let go during their charismatic meetings.