Why aren't Catholics more conservative in dress?

[TheDoctor]

A woman is required to wear a headcovering to have an audience with the Pope.

That is not true. Can you cite where you found this information from?

A woman is required to wear a dress (skirt suit,etc) to an audience with the Pope.

That is not true either.

Both of our most recent First Ladies did this.

There is a difference between a formal diplomatic meeting between representatives of the United States Government and the Pope as head of the Vatican State and a papal audience between the Pope as Vicar of Christ and members of his flock. Under the former, the US Embassy and the Vatican determine an appropriate dress code for what amounts to a state visit. Neither of our former first ladies, I am aware, attended an audience as just plain old Catholics.

Now, how much greater and more worthy of our humility and honor is Our Lord and Savior, with whom we will have much more than “an audience” as He will dwell (body, blood, soul, and divinity) within our very selves. Not an external “Hi, nice to meet you”. But within our hearts and souls. And for this miraculous event we do LESS than for a mere man. Our God deserves better than our Pope. No matter how much I, personally, like our Pope.

I agree that our God deserves better than our Pope.

So that’s my train of thought, I’m sure some will find it a bit “derailed”. But if you follow the old step-by-step path, it’ll get you there. I apologize that I failed to define conservative in clothing:
Dresses/skirts
near knee length or longer
No sleeveless
no low cut
Headcovering

Men
Shirt
Tie
Sportcoat

So, our conservative brothers and sisters in the slums of Columbia and remote villages of the Congo would not be able to go to Mass because even though conservative, they don’t have the right garments?

I don’t mean to pick on you but on the idea that the way we dress is an indication of the value we place in our relationship with God. Dress has always been and will always be cultural and what is acceptable in one place at one time will change (do you really think the Apostles threw a tie and sportcoat over their robes?).

We show more reverence to God in the way we live our lives and love Him and our fellow man than in any preening and primping we do to fit in with what any gorup thinks is “proper”.

Honestly, I’m sorry, I don’t know why I posted because all these “dress for God” threads are just so tedious. Maybe I’m just having a ****** day.

 

[Ohiomom]

Someone sent me a pm referencing this thread, but I can’t respond because it says your profile is not set up to accept pm’s.

 

[consecrated_one]

Hello,
I am very new to this and I have apparently hit upon a sensitive or boring subject. I honestly didn’t know there were a bunch of other writings on this topic. This will teach me to do my research before starting a thread.
I apologize to any I might have annoyed, bored or other wise offended. I honestly just had a question and asked it. As I said I have learned to research abit first and I thank you all for helping me learn!
Merry Christmas

 

[TheDoctor]

Hello,
I am very new to this and I have apparently hit upon a sensitive or boring subject. I honestly didn’t know there were a bunch of other writings on this topic. This will teach me to do my research before starting a thread.
I apologize to any I might have annoyed, bored or other wise offended. I honestly just had a question and asked it. As I said I have learned to research abit first and I thank you all for helping me learn!
Merry Christmas

Hi Consecrated. You did not annoy, bore or offend me one bit. There are just some topics that we have “done to death”. Hey, we were all “new” once so don’t give it a second thought, and you keep right on posting. You will learn more about the faith and meet some of the brightest people here on these forums.

 

[AcademyGirl]

New here. I 'd like to contribute by posting this, one of my favorite quotes from St. John Chrysostom:

"“You carry your snare everywhere and spread your nets in all places. You allege that you never invited others to sin. You did not, indeed, by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment. … When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent? Tell me, whom does this world condemn? Whom do judges punish? Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion? You have prepared the abominable cup, you have given the death dealing drink, and you are more criminal than are those who poison the body; you murder not the body but the soul. And it is not to enemies you do this, nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity, nor provoked by injury, but out of foolish vanity and pride.”

Fiery, and sort of forgets the necessity of men’s keeping custody of the eyes, but not entirely out of line…

 

[Shin]

Well, the reason Catholics aren’t more conservative in dress is mostly simply the fact that they are not obeying their own religious tenets, and there is a great deal of quiet apostasy, heresy, and cultural corruption right now riddled throughout the Church.

That’s the simple, real answer.

Otherwise, frankly, they’d be dressing rather more like the people in the older b/w movies do.

The rules of modesty in clothing and of the eyes still exist, and can’t be erased, as they are basic moral and natural law, as well as divine law. They’re just overwhelmed by the corrupt TV/media culture, and so inoculated by this, the majority of Catholics think they are doing fine, dressing as everybody does, when in fact they are in deep trouble.

 

[fabricdragon]

durn computer ate my last try at a comment.

1. i had seen many sources for the “you must wear a veil to visit the pope, attend Mass in Rome” both from people who said they went there, and from people who were screaming that they were not permitted to without a veil. so thats where i got my information from. also a feminist recounting her visit to the Pope, and her attempts to find a way to keep the veil from touching her head, as she viewed it as a symbol of “submission” and was angry she “had to” wear one.
   if i am in error, i apologize, but hearing it from both sides. it sounded true
2. in my humble and non canonical opinion:
   Clean, Neat, Modest, Gender appropriate
   if your clothes meat those criteria, then i dont think anyone should have a thing bad to say about you attending church in them.

that doesn’t mean “dresses” it doesn’t mean “not dresses” just that a woman shouldn’t wear obvious men’s clothes or attempt to masquerade as a man. (and vice versa)

obviously if at all possible you should dress as you would for meeting an important person… but what we have in our closets for that will vary widely.

so i wear pants pretty much all winter
they are clean, neat, color co-ordinated corduroys. they are women’s pants too, cut to fit me with a bit of ease. not skin tight like i wore as an idiot teenager.

i don’t look anything like a boy. no one would ever say i am dressed like a boy around here. If a church requested i wear a skirt, i would be confused, but would comply, i own plenty of skirts… but if they need me to wear a dress?
well i can’t, i dont own any.

i have yet to find a dress that is as long as i wear my skirts (below mid calf, usually ankle length) that isnt either showing way too much cleavage, and looking like an evening dress… or making me look like i am dressed for little house on the prairie. and any of those would be either indecent, or attract too much attention. I actually sold all my dresses at a second hand shop when i decided to dress more modestly.

well, ok. i do own a few “dresses” but they are my medieval clothes for the SCA and i think they would cause some attention and comment also.

as an aside: a Kilt is MEN’s clothes, even though it is not worn typically in this time and place (darn it! Kilts are great) and even though it might be mistaken for a woman’s skirt by some, it is no such thing… ask a bagpiper…
but i do admit that they MIGHT be an incitement to lust… men look SO good in kilts.

 

[consecrated_one]

Hello,
Shin - I think you hit it right on the head! Many have become like frogs in the proverbial fryin pan, not even aware that the heat is putting them in jeopardy! I trust what Our Lady said at Fatima to the effect that there will (are now, I’m sure) fashions which will Greatly offend Our Lord! No one could have predicted how far off track our mainstream culture has become!

 

[adstrinity]

You know, Adam & Eve were created naked. Jesus & Mary were born naked. We shouldn’t be slaves to fashion! We should all go naked so not as wear any clothes that offend God.

 

[DJgang]

You know, Adam & Eve were created naked. Jesus & Mary were born naked. We shouldn’t be slaves to fashion! We should all go naked so not as wear any clothes that offend God.

Hey, I am ALL for that!!!

Unfortunately, they ate of the fruit and were suddenly ashamed of being naked … so…that’s not an option now

But you do have one thing right…we have become slaves to fashion. I admit…I am sometimes one of them, until those low riders are too tight and my baby belly hangs out … and then it’s time to hang 'em up and forget it. But ya know, some people can’t figure that one out by themselves.

As for well, at least they show up to Mass, I don’t remember who said that earlier…yes, I’m tickled pink that all are showing up to Mass … but don’t show me your boobs and butt crack…kwim?

 

[consecrated_one]

Hello,
love how you get right to the heart of the matter!

 

[HarmonyServant]

Hey, so, I heard there was a debate going on?

Well, the reason Catholics aren’t more conservative in dress is mostly simply the fact that they are not obeying their own religious tenets, and there is a great deal of quiet apostasy, heresy, and cultural corruption right now riddled throughout the Church.

I’m going to have to agree with this. The modern culture does not contain much common sense regarding decency. And, unfortunately, some Christians are following modern society instead of the Church.

 

[Inwe86]

Covering the head, as I have always seen it, is a sign of humility and reverence before the Blessed Sacrament, an outward acknowledgment of the more important inner reverence. Humility and modesty, however, aren’t limited to being veiled. You can be veiled, but if you’re showing a pound of cleavage, I doubt that the veil carries much weight with the Lord. Besides, you’re really taking Corinthians out of context. (I’d check the footnotes on the USCCB website.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by consecrated one
Why don’t Catholic women and girls wear dresses to Mass and constantly? The Bible says to.

No, it doesn’t. It says not to wear a “man’s apparel.” This is entirely a culture conditional statement; consider kilts, togas, kimonos etc. In our modern culture, pants are not definitively men’s apparel. Plus, I believe (and haven’t found a definitive statement otherwise) that it’s the spirit of Deuteronomy that’s important, namely, embrace your gender and don’t try to disguise or pretend you’re otherwise, such as by changing your outward appearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by consecrated one
The Blessed Mother warned at Fatima that there would be fashions which would greatly offend Our Lord.

Yeah, and there are! It’s called immodest dress. THAT is the enemy and the distraction. I mean, seriously, what’s more offensive: An uncovered woman wearing a modest pants suit to Mass or a woman wearing a veil with a short dress and heels (yes, I’ve seen it)?

Now, personally, I think dresses and skirts are generally more modest garbs (especially for a woman like me who has a badonkadonk and looks kind of 'hoish in pants), but, again, I believe modesty in dress is the objective and it can be accomplished in many ways.

Amen! :clapping:

 

[TheDoctor]

You know, Adam & Eve were created naked. Jesus & Mary were born naked. We shouldn’t be slaves to fashion! We should all go naked so not as wear any clothes that offend God.

On the minus side, I need to wear clothes so I don’t offend God (I’ve got to get back to the gym). On the plus side, me naked would not be a near occasion of sin to anyone…except my wife…

 

[adstrinity]

Hey, I am ALL for that!!!

Unfortunately, they ate of the fruit and were suddenly ashamed of being naked … so…that’s not an option now

But you do have one thing right…we have become slaves to fashion. I admit…I am sometimes one of them, until those low riders are too tight and my baby belly hangs out … and then it’s time to hang 'em up and forget it. But ya know, some people can’t figure that one out by themselves.

As for well, at least they show up to Mass, I don’t remember who said that earlier…yes, I’m tickled pink that all are showing up to Mass … but don’t show me your boobs and butt crack…kwim?

They were ashamed, but, as we know, that is unnatural, as is clothes. I’m telling you all, naked is the new black.

It is logical. I’m not ashamed, why should their shame cover me? No clothes, no immodesty.

TheDoctor, I’m not seeing a dnowside to your argument. Keeping everybody but your wife in check; seems like a win-win.

 

[CradleCath]

Hello,
I just wanted to know why Catholic women and girls don’t cover their hair with veils like they used to? God doesn’t change and the Bible says we should cover during Mass and during prayer. It could be argued women should cover constantly as we are told to pray without ceasing. Why don’t Catholic women and girls wear dresses to Mass and constantly? The Bible says to. Are we all just “slaves to fashion”? The Blessed Mother warned at Fatima that there would be fashions which would greatly offend Our Lord. Perhaps we are offending Him with some of our masculine or revealing garments? Let’s all just do what the Bible says and Change the Culture!
1 Corinthians 11:3-16
Deutoronomy 22:5

Just this past year I started wearing a chapel veil again…after 40 yrs.
I attend the Latin Mass & nearly all of us cover our heads. I’ve never worn pants to any Mass…not during the 40 yrs. that I attended the Novus Ordo or the years before that when I assisted at the Tridentine Mass.

I hope you don’t mind if I ask an additional question or two. I’ve heard “pants are more comfortable” more times than I can remember. In my view, they are NOT more comfortable so I put on a skirt & blouse/sweater ANYTIME I can. Of course, around the house, for trips to the grocery store, to my Grandchildren’s sporting events I do wear jeans, but that’s about it. Can some of the “pants wearing women” please explain just WHY then find them more comfortable. I’m not being contentious…I just truy want to know???

 

[Lizziebel]

Just this past year I started wearing a chapel veil again…after 40 yrs.
I attend the Latin Mass & nearly all of us cover our heads. I’ve never worn pants to any Mass…not during the 40 yrs. that I attended the Novus Ordo or the years before that when I assisted at the Tridentine Mass.

I hope you don’t mind if I ask an additional question or two. I’ve heard “pants are more comfortable” more times than I can remember. In my view, they are NOT more comfortable so I put on a skirt & blouse/sweater ANYTIME I can. Of course, around the house, for trips to the grocery store, to my Grandchildren’s sporting events I do wear jeans, but that’s about it. Can some of the “pants wearing women” please explain just WHY then find them more comfortable. I’m not being contentious…I just truy want to know???

Oh, they definitely are more comfortable, both physically and psychologically, when you have slacks that are well-fitting. There are many things that go into this, but particularly this time of year, I rarely wear skirts. I’m far too petite to pull of the really long skirt look. Or to pull off thick tights…they make me look like a child. I do have tall boots that work nicely with one skirt so that my legs don’t freeze in this chilly, chilly weather. But slacks or cords (cordeuroys) keep a person much warmer on days like today.

 

[Bluegoat]

They were ashamed, but, as we know, that is unnatural, as is clothes. I’m telling you all, naked is the new black.

It is logical. I’m not ashamed, why should their shame cover me? No clothes, no immodesty.

TheDoctor, I’m not seeing a dnowside to your argument. Keeping everybody but your wife in check; seems like a win-win.

In a way, this might actually work. If you went to the right place, you might be able to find a Church where people wear little or no clothing.

After all, when people go naked, they tend to lose the whole “the body is an object of lust” thing.

OTOH, it is far too cold here to go naked.

I discussed this once with an Orthodox fellow who pointed out another problem from an Orthodox perspective - he said if we went naked in church, we’d think people doing prostrations were winking at us!

 

[Shin]

‘Human bodies are like glasses, which cannot come into collision without risk of breaking; or to fruits, which, however fresh and ripe, are damaged by pressure. Never permit any one to take any manner of foolish liberty with you, since, although there may be no evil intention, the perfectness of purity is injured thereby. Purity has its source in the heart, but it is in the body that its material results take shape, and therefore it may be forfeited both by the exterior senses and by the thoughts and desires of the heart. All lack of modesty in seeing, hearing, speaking, smelling, or touching, is impurity, especially when the heart takes pleasure therein. St. Paul says without any hesitation that impurity and uncleanness, or foolish and unseemly talking, are not to be “so much as named” among Christians. Remember that there are things which blemish perfect purity, without being in themselves downright acts of impurity. Anything which tends to lessen its intense sensitiveness, or to cast the slightest shadow over it, is of this nature; and all evil thoughts or foolish acts of levity or heedlessness are as steps towards the most direct breaches of the law of chastity. Avoid the society of persons who are wanting in purity, especially if they are bold, as indeed impure people always are.’

St. Francis de Sales

‘If he lose shame and modesty, he will remain in sin.’

St. Jerome

 

[consecrated_one]

Thank you and God Bless you! I’m sure you made our Blessed Mother proud!