why aren't dinosaurs in the bible?

[Jaded27]

So I’m in this debate online with a friend of mine who is not religious at all. I figure even though I’m a JW this is as good a place to ask this as any.

His whole thing is he says the Bible does not have divine influence and it was only written by men without god’s help because there is no mention of dinosaurs. He and another friend of mine said that was one of the main reasons they stopped believing in God. Because the Bible doesn’t have an explanation of dinosaurs!! (rolls eyes)

I replied that A. God did not have man write down EVERY SINGLE creature ever created. We are constantly discovering new species (and wiping out others). No where did I ever see a list in any book of the Bible that says “Here is everything I have created. Please take note.”
I also said B. that I’ve always figured the Bible is a book of guidelines that God has put down for HUMANS and their time on earth. Since dinosaurs were before us how would that affect us in the least?

Does anyone else have any theories on this? I don’t know if all of you are strictly creationists or if we have some evolution people here. I obviously do not believe in evolution at all. Any ideas?

 

[austinbond]

Try Genesis 1:21

So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

I’ve always interpreted that as Dinosaurs but don’t know what the Church says about the issue.

 

[JimG]

I’ve never taken it as a requirement that the Bible must mention every species that ever existed. There have been millions of species of animals and plants, most of which are now extinct, but only a few general varieties are mentioned in the bible.

 

[Jaded27]

JimG:

I’ve never taken it as a requirement that the Bible must mention every species that ever existed. There have been millions of species of animals and plants, most of which are now extinct, but only a few general varieties are mentioned in the bible.

Yea, that was kind of my answer about it.

I think people who don’t believe in God are not going to be so easily swayed even if I could prove that dinosaurs not being mentioned in the bible is no big deal. You either believe or you don’t. I’d find it easier to argue religion with a Catholic than with an athiest because at least Catholics believe in God and have a religious basis.

Ah well. I just thought it was kind of an interesting point to bring up here.

 

[Travesty]

Jaded,
I’m not too well versed on what exactly JW believe but I’ll throw some interesting bible verses out that deal with evolution.

Did God use Evolution to create us?

2 Maccabees 7: 28 (NAB)

“I beg you child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things; and in the same way the human race came into existence.”(Emphasis added)

God did not make them out of existing things; that is, God made all things solely by his omnipotent will and his creative word.

Genesis 1:1 (NAB)

“In the Beginning, **God created ** the heavens and the Earth” (Emphasis added)
Of course it doesn’t say in the beginning, God created a speck of mass no bigger than the period at the end of this sentence which he then left up to random chance to build the universe. But….*

Is God Omnipotent?

Revelation 22:13 (NAB)

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, **the beginning and the end.” ** (Emphasis added)

• To say that God used random chance to design the heavens and the earth is to take away from his Omnipotence. *

Ephesians 1:11 (NAB)

“**In him we were also chosen, destined ** in accord with the purpose of the One who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will” (Emphasis added)

How can a God who is all powerful and all knowing simply leave it up to random chance? To leave it up to Chance, would say that God is not in total control. If God is not in control, then why should we worship him, or do what he commands?

Acts 15:18 puts it this way:

“Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world."

Did God Create the World?

1 Samuel 2:6-9

"The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. {7} The LORD makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up. {8} He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the beggar from the ash heap, To set them among princes And make them inherit the throne of glory. "For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, And He has set the world upon them. {9} He will guard the feet of His saints, But the wicked shall be silent in darkness. "For by strength no man shall prevail.

Psalms 24:1

“The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein.”

Proverbs 16:4

“The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.”

Isaiah 45:4-9

“For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me. {5} I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, {6} That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other; {7} I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’ {8} "Rain down, you heavens, from above, And let the skies pour down righteousness; Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation, And let righteousness spring up together. I, the LORD, have created it. {9} **"Woe to him who strives with his Maker! ** Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth! Shall the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ Or shall your handiwork say, ‘He has no hands’?”

Isaiah 66:1-2

“Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest? {2} For all those things My hand has made, And all those things exist," Says the LORD. "But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, And who trembles at My word.”

[CONTINUED ON NEXT POST]

 

[Travesty]

[CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST]

Acts 17:24-28

"God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. {25} "Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. {26} "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, {27} "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; {28} "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.”

Could he have perhaps used Evolution to create everything? No. The Bible is very clear that he does not stand back and let things happen, but plays an active role in everything.

What does God think of Scientists and Evolution?

Romans 1:20 – 23 (NAB)

“{20}Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; {21} for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. {22} While claiming to be wise, they became fools. {23} and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four legged animals or of snakes.

 

[Jaded27]

Wow. Thanks for all that info. It is certainly helpful.

The thing that sucks about reasoning with non believers is that you have no basis of commonality to go on. They don’t believe in God so reasoning with them from the scriptures is difficult. They only believe in science and though I passed my classes, I am not a scientist. It’s difficult.

 

[Travesty]

Jaded27:

Wow. Thanks for all that info. It is certainly helpful.

The thing that sucks about reasoning with non believers is that you have no basis of commonality to go on. They don’t believe in God so reasoning with them from the scriptures is difficult. They only believe in science and though I passed my classes, I am not a scientist. It’s difficult.

I completly agree. If they don’t believe in God, they won’t listen to any scriptures.

Science has been changing over the centuries, new ideas, new formulas, and new ways of thinking. Sure, science has its place; lives are saved because of breakthroughs in medical science but to me it’s hard to understand why human beings in general will believe anything but the fact that God created us. Christianity is not a difficult, complex concept to grasp. It’s actually quite easy once you understand that God is in control, and you humbly ask him to guide you.

And let’s go off on a limb and say God doesn’t exist, and you spent your entire life going to church, and trying to live a good Christian life. Was it a waste? The Bible can save people from a lot of pain and suffering even if they don’t believe in God. If everyone followed the 10 commandments and the New Testament commandment to “love your neighbor as you love yourself” (Mark 12:31) People would live their lives in peace. So you didn’t get drunk every weekend of your life, sleep around with half your town’s population, and you didn’t become enslaved to your material goods, always wanting what you don’t have. Did you still live such a bad life? My guess is no.

The real question is, if we are the products of random chance, then how can we form a moral foundation? Who is right, and who is wrong? Let’s say you don’t believe in God, so where do you get your morals? Because $ociety tells you so? Society is constantly conditioned to change their views. What was** “in”** yesterday is “out” today. It’s called social conditioning and social conditioning is the decay of modern society. But why does society function like this? More importantly, why do what $ociety tells us to, if we can decide our morals for ourselves?

Because deep down inside of us, we all want to fit in. We want people to** like ** us. We want people to want us around. We want to be loved.

Evolution’s “survival of the fittest” * concept denies us the very thing that makes us human. That is,* love**, above all things. Wars are fought over love. We’ve got men in Iraq right now fighting and dying because they love their country. A man will defend his wife from harm, because of his love for her. Why are people willing to do anything for love? We desire to be loved by people, especially the ones we care about. “Survival of the fittest” denies that human beings are designed to love, and want to be loved. After all, what are we without love, or wanting to be loved? We are no greater than the animals that roam the earth. It’s by no accident that God created humans last, and separate from the animals. Sure,* “survival of the fittest” * is evident in animal behavior, but we are not animals. Evilution would have you believe otherwise.

(Genesis 1:26)** “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”” ** All God wants is us to **love him ** (be loved) as he loves us; same as us. Coincidence?

 

[Jaded27]

Travesty:

And let’s go off on a limb and say God doesn’t exist, and you spent your entire life going to church, and trying to live a good Christian life. Was it a waste? The Bible can save people from a lot of pain and suffering even if they don’t believe in God. If everyone followed the 10 commandments and the New Testament commandment to “love your neighbor as you love yourself” (Mark 12:31) People would live their lives in peace. So you didn’t get drunk every weekend of your life, sleep around with half your town’s population, and you didn’t become enslaved to your material goods, always wanting what you don’t have. Did you still live such a bad life? My guess is no.

EXACTLY. I completely agree. Even if there is absolutely no God, your life was not wasted. You lived a morally clean and structured life. What’s so wrong with that?
I honestly think that a lot of people just don’t have the patience to be spiritual.

I have a Catholic friend who I recently got into a religious discussion with. Not a debate or anything. But I just said to him that if he sends his daughter to CCD, which he does, and WANTS to be a good Catholic, which he does, then where is he on Sunday mornings?
He said he was being lazy and sleeping.

I’m not saying that it’s only Catholics either so please don’t take it that way. I just mean that anyone of any religion, or non-religion as the case may be, can sometimes be lazy and that can explain thier lack of wanting to believe in a higher power.

 

[Mystophilus]

Travesty:

Let’s say you don’t believe in God, so where do you get your morals? Because $ociety tells you so? Society is constantly conditioned to change their views. What was** “in”** yesterday is “out” today. It’s called social conditioning and social conditioning is the decay of modern society. But why does society function like this? More importantly, why do what $ociety tells us to, if we can decide our morals for ourselves?

Because deep down inside of us, we all want to fit in. We want people to** like ** us. We want people to want us around. We want to be loved.

This is true. It is also true of membership in churches. People join churches, and remain in churches, because they want to have a group to which they can belong. In order to belong, they obey the demands of conformity within that group and so they alter their views to match the prevailing ones. Social conditioning is the glue of all groups, churches included.

Then a radical comes along and disagrees with the group, and what is the response? “Crucify Him!”

 

[puzzleannie]

kangaroos, giraffes, voles, alligators, three-toed sloths and various other animals are not specifically mentioned by name in the bible either. God created the animals, all the beasts and all those that creep, crawl, chew cud etc, all the creatures of the sea and air, that about covers it, Genesis is not a zoology textbook, the first two chapters are poetic narratives about God’s creation of the universe and mankind, not science treatises.

 

[Travesty]

Jaded27:

EXACTLY. I completely agree. Even if there is absolutely no God, your life was not wasted. You lived a morally clean and structured life. What’s so wrong with that?
I honestly think that a lot of people just don’t have the patience to be spiritual.

I have a Catholic friend who I recently got into a religious discussion with. Not a debate or anything. But I just said to him that if he sends his daughter to CCD, which he does, and WANTS to be a good Catholic, which he does, then where is he on Sunday mornings?
He said he was being lazy and sleeping.

I’m not saying that it’s only Catholics either so please don’t take it that way. I just mean that anyone of any religion, or non-religion as the case may be, can sometimes be lazy and that can explain thier lack of wanting to believe in a higher power.

Laziness like anything else is a human trait. I wish I had the website link for you that did the math on how little time God really asks of you every week. I think in an 80 year life span, it was something like 14 years sleeping, 6 years in the car, 15 years working, and only like 6 months of time spent at church on sunday morning and so on and so forth.

I’m in a hostile fire zone overseas with the US-Army and I work 6 days a week, 12 - 14 hours a day and I still find time to go to mass. Yes there has been times I haven’t gone due to exegent circumstances, and a few out of simply being exhausted from working so much; nobody is perfect.

Although with Catholics its pretty cut and dry; missing mass is a grave sin unless somebody is dying or your daughter is sick or whatever. I think that is a tad harsh in my opinion, but God knows everyones heart, and he knows the difference if your not going to mass simply because of football, or because you can’t get out of work.

As far as people not having the patience to be spiritual, I don’t think it has anything to do with that. It’s called selective hearing. We all had selective hearing as children, and especially in the teenage years when our parents told us to do something we don’t want to do (chores) we would act like we didn’t hear them, or go ask the other parent (usually dad) knowing that dad was usually more lenient.

Its the same with religion. People don’t want to hear that the choices they make every single day are bad choices. Or that they have to be responsible for their actions. In a world filled with people expecting everything now, NOW, now, and me, ME, me it might be easy to mistake the lack of sprituality as merely impatience. However it is simply the age old, “its not my fault” or passing the buck (responsibility) on circumstances. People will opt for the easy out, picking a religion that doesn’t require much effort on their part (evolution, etc)

For example: A man convicted of murder will say: “I physically abused my wife, and killed my children because I was physically or sexually abused as a child.” = a lame excuse, copout.

I hate how people love to blame their problems, iniquities, and responsibilties off on everything and everyone but themselves.

Christianity is not a burden. It is a way to a peaceful life. and an eternal life.

 

[catholic2]

er…what animal is huge, has a tail like a cedar tree and eats grass? Hint…aptosaurus…Job 40:15.

Travesty: thanks for your post. I found your quotes helpful.

 

[Arlene]

You have to remember that dinosaurs were long gone before the first man came on the scene. And people in Bible times were not exactly scienctists and paleontologists. They had no idea that dinosaurs had even existed. It was only until modern times that we found bones and had the scientific ability to study them that we even knew that dinosours had been here.

 

[catholic2]

I repeat my question to you Arlene.

 

[Jaded27]

Arlene:

You have to remember that dinosaurs were long gone before the first man came on the scene. And people in Bible times were not exactly scienctists and paleontologists. They had no idea that dinosaurs had even existed. It was only until modern times that we found bones and had the scientific ability to study them that we even knew that dinosours had been here.

That was his point though. If they existed God should have known and told them. Because he’s divine and knows all and the bible was divinely influenced. But I said that it’s a silly expectation anyway because, as you said, dinosaurs were long gone. They had nothing to do with humans and the bible is God’s guidebook for humans. Not for everything that came before them.

 

[Santa_Cruz]

Mystophilus:

This is true. It is also true of membership in churches. People join churches, and remain in churches, because they want to have a group to which they can belong. In order to belong, they obey the demands of conformity within that group and so they alter their views to match the prevailing ones. Social conditioning is the glue of all groups, churches included.

Then a radical comes along and disagrees with the group, and what is the response? “Crucify Him!”

Let’s see what the Catechism has to say about this very interesting subject. In case you don’t have a Catholic Catechism, here is a link.

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Catechism of the Catholic Church

CC-283, 284, 285, 286

 

[Nan_S]

Jaded27:

His whole thing is he says the Bible does not have divine influence and it was only written by men without god’s help because there is no mention of dinosaurs. He and another friend of mine said that was one of the main reasons they stopped believing in God. Because the Bible doesn’t have an explanation of dinosaurs!! (rolls eyes)

No dinosaurs, hmmmm? I wonder what this is, then…

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9d/Destruction_of_Leviathan.png/301px-Destruction_of_Leviathan.png

*Genesis 1:20-21 And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens.” So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. *

*Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea. *

*Psalm 74:12-14 Yet God my King is from of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth. **Thou didst divide the sea by thy might; **thou didst break the heads of the dragons on the waters. **Thou didst crush the heads of Leviathan, thou didst give him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. *

*Psalm 104:24-26 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! In wisdom hast thou made them all; the earth is full of thy creatures. **Yonder is the sea, great and wide, which teems with things innumerable, **living things both small and great. **There go the ships, and Leviathan which thou didst form to sport in it. *

Job 40:15-19 "Behold, Behemoth, which I made as I made you; he eats grass like an ox. Behold, his strength in his loins, and his power in the muscles of his belly. He makes his tail stiff like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like bars of iron. "He is the first of the works of God; let him who made him bring near his sword!

This is from my RSV. I don’t have a copy of the JW New World Translation. Do these verses read the same there?

Does anyone else have any theories on this? I don’t know if all of you are strictly creationists or if we have some evolution people here. I obviously do not believe in evolution at all. Any ideas?

Macro-evolution - the idea that one species transmogrifies into another without the intervention of God - NAH! Why not? The fossil record proves Abrupt Appearance. Darwin’s theorized missing link Transitional Forms are still missing.

Micro-evolution - the idea that a given species will mutate and adapt - ABSOLUTELY! (Or give me another explanation why I have to get a different flu shot every year.)

 

[Arlene]

This reminds me of a post I read a few months ago when I was still only reading posts and not responding to them. It made me laugh…

The post said if the only things happened were things that said so in the Bible, then Jesus never went to the bathroom. We know he ate, he slept, he wept, but he never went potty.

Pretty irreverant, I know, but it just goes to show that sometimes things happened that the Bible just doesn’t seem to mention.

 

[Arlene]

catholic2:

I repeat my question to you Arlene.

Sounds like a dinosaur to me, I wonder if someone would argue the line that says that I made along with you since he did not make dinosaurs and man at the same time.

On the other hand, Job 40:19 says He is the first of the ways of God.

So there you have it, seems like dinosaurs ARE Biblical.