Why aren't Muslims Jewish?

[Jay53]

I know, that sounds like a strange title, but I couldn’t come up with anything else. And this may have been asked and answered already, but I couldn’t find it. If so, please point me in the right direction.

Anyhow, Muslims seem to quote from the OT, so I don’t think they believe that is corrupted, just the NT and Christianity is wrong. So why aren’t Muslims just Jewish - following God’s Word up until they believe it was corrupted? Or is all of Judaism corrupted too?

Thanks.

 

[ralphinal]

They hold that Judiasm corrupted God’s teaching.

There may very well be some merit to the idea that as they see themselves as Ishamel’s children, they would want no part of Isaac’s bunch. Judaism is not “ethnocentric” to the Arabian peninsula

 

[dolphinlove]

I know, that sounds like a strange title, but I couldn’t come up with anything else. And this may have been asked and answered already, but I couldn’t find it. If so, please point me in the right direction.

Anyhow, Muslims seem to quote from the OT, so I don’t think they believe that is corrupted, just the NT and Christianity is wrong. So why aren’t Muslims just Jewish - following God’s Word up until they believe it was corrupted? Or is all of Judaism corrupted too?

Thanks.

Because they dont get to worship a big black rock.

 

[Jay53]

They hold that Judiasm corrupted God’s teaching.

There may very well be some merit to the idea that as they see themselves as Ishamel’s children, they would want no part of Isaac’s bunch. Judaism is not “ethnocentric” to the Arabian peninsula

Is there a specific point at which they deem it to be corrupted? They seem to follow the OT and quote it alot so they obviously believe it up to some point. I just didn’t know if there was some specific point in history that serves as the “turning point” so to speak. Maybe Jesus - Jews don’t believe He is the Messiah, but Muslims do. Maybe the Jewish rejection of Jesus as a prophet is the turning point?

 

[Eucharisted]

Muslims believe Jews corrupted their scripture - which, unfortantely, dose hold some truth to it. The scriptures which Jews revere today were not the scriptures that Jews before the destruction of the second Temple (70 AD) revered. Some books were knocked out of scriptures, deemed uninspired by God. In post-70 AD Judiaism, there are many beliefs which are contrary to Scriptres: reincarnation, no eternal hell, the dead may be communicated to, etc. In my opinion, the leaders of Judaism felt so threatened by Christians that they had to radically change some parts of Judaism in order to “disprove” the claims of Christianity.

 

[ralphinal]

Is there a specific point at which they deem it to be corrupted? They seem to follow the OT and quote it alot so they obviously believe it up to some point. I just didn’t know if there was some specific point in history that serves as the “turning point” so to speak. Maybe Jesus - Jews don’t believe He is the Messiah, but Muslims do. Maybe the Jewish rejection of Jesus as a prophet is the turning point?

Not that I can find. They seem to be more of a postion of “Where we agree, they are right and where we disagree, they are corrupt.”

If you look at the history of Islam, you will see that Judaism and some heretical Christian groups were in the areas where Muhammed lived. In the end, many Jews sided against him, and that may be reflected in some of Islam’s teachings.

If you actually compair the Qur’an with the OT, they are not as similar. Noah had four sons in the Qur’an, and one died in the Flood. You cannot tell which son was offered by Abraham (many Muslims assume it to be Ishmael, making the Covenant between God and Abraham including them). There are more.

Islam is really not as similar to Judaism as you might thing. The kosher laws are not the same. The holy days are not the same. The understanding of GOd is not the same. The understanding of the afterlife is not the same.

The Jewish rejection of Jesus is not so much a cause of separation for them as it is another indictment of Judaism.

 

[ralphinal]

Muslims believe Jews corrupted their scripture - which, unfortantely, dose hold some truth to it. The scriptures which Jews revere today were not the scriptures that Jews before the destruction of the second Temple (70 AD) revered. Some books were knocked out of scriptures, deemed uninspired by God. In post-70 AD Judiaism, there are many beliefs which are contrary to Scriptres: reincarnation, no eternal hell, the dead may be communicated to, etc. In my opinion, the leaders of Judaism felt so threatened by Christians that they had to radically change some parts of Judaism in order to “disprove” the claims of Christianity.

That is not the way Muslims understand the Corruption. What you are talking about was a two-fold attempt to purify Judaism. First, any writtings that did not exist in Hebrew were out. Second, it gave them more cause to remove Christains from their midst.

Muslims hold that the TEXTS THEMSELVES have been changed. In other words, it is not what was left out but how it reads that has been altered.

 

[Eucharisted]

That is not the way Muslims understand the Corruption. What you are talking about was a two-fold attempt to purify Judaism. First, any writtings that did not exist in Hebrew were out. Second, it gave them more cause to remove Christains from their midst.

Muslims hold that the TEXTS THEMSELVES have been changed. In other words, it is not what was left out but how it reads that has been altered.

If the texts were changed, than it makes no sense for them to be citing the Bible - since its words could have no historical basis whatsoever (someone could have added them in at a later time, for example). But if they want to cite the Bible as proof of the Qu’ran, I guess they’ll do it.

 

[Jay53]

Islam is really not as similar to Judaism as you might thing. The kosher laws are not the same. The holy days are not the same. The understanding of GOd is not the same. The understanding of the afterlife is not the same.

The Jewish rejection of Jesus is not so much a cause of separation for them as it is another indictment of Judaism.

That’s what I don’t get. Do Muslims believe that at one point the Jewish people were God’s chosen people and they had a covenant with Him? If so, then why didn’t they go back to that point in time/scripture where they believe it was corrupted and go from there. It seems like according to them God said - I gave all of you laws and a covenant. No one is following it. You all corrupted it. So forget it - I’m creating a whole new religion (Islam) with some new/some similar laws and this is what you are to follow.

 

[ralphinal]

That’s what I don’t get. Do Muslims believe that at one point the Jewish people were God’s chosen people and they had a covenant with Him? If so, then why didn’t they go back to that point in time/scripture where they believe it was corrupted and go from there. It seems like according to them God said - I gave all of you laws and a covenant. No one is following it. You all corrupted it. So forget it - I’m creating a whole new religion (Islam) with some new/some similar laws and this is what you are to follow.

Yes, the do beleive that God had a covenant with them. However, they understand that word differently then we (or the Jews) do. To Muslims, Covenants are deals that can be broken. If one side goofs up, it is gone. By corrupting the text and possibly denying the prophetic nature of Jesus, they did just that.

The also hold that the Jews are God’s chosen people but that does not mean that they are exclusive. To them, all the children of Abraham are God’s chosen people. The Jews had the early prophets and the Arabs had the last one.

 

[ralphinal]

If the texts were changed, than it makes no sense for them to be citing the Bible - since its words could have no historical basis whatsoever (someone could have added them in at a later time, for example). But if they want to cite the Bible as proof of the Qu’ran, I guess they’ll do it.

You and I both know that if it is corrupt, you should not cite it. They want it both ways.

I have yet to see them hold up a verse and say “This is what it says now and this is what it should say.”

 

[agnostic_in_ist]

Because they dont get to worship a big black rock.

 

[agnostic_in_ist]

You and I both know that if it is corrupt, you should not cite it. They want it both ways.

I have yet to see them hold up a verse and say “This is what it says now and this is what it should say.”

Spot on. It’s good to see they don’t have the wool pulled over your eyes.

 

[ralphinal]

Spot on. It’s good to see they don’t have the wool pulled over your eyes.

I am willing to accept some of their claims. For example, i do not think that all Muslims, or even most, are willing to attack non-Muslims. However, any theological claims they make are right out the window with me

 

[Eucharisted]

Yes, the do beleive that God had a covenant with them. However, they understand that word differently then we (or the Jews) do. To Muslims, Covenants are deals that can be broken. If one side goofs up, it is gone. By corrupting the text and possibly denying the prophetic nature of Jesus, they did just that.

The also hold that the Jews are God’s chosen people but that does not mean that they are exclusive. To them, all the children of Abraham are God’s chosen people. The Jews had the early prophets and the Arabs had the last one.

So Islam has completely redefined everything from Judaism and Christianity? That would explain the irrational thinking.

 

[hamba2han]

`How can you say, “We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?’ … (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)

Deuteronomy 31:25-29
25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD :
26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.
27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die!
28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them.
29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

Christians have a lot of nerve blaming Muslims for choosing to believe what Moses (pbuh) said as clearly written in their own Bible.

Anyone who does not believe in the truth of the Qur’an really should not consider himself to be a Muslim.

In comparison, if someone chooses to disbelieve what is clearly written in the Bible, then is he or she still considered a “believer” in the teachings of Christianity?

 

[Madaglan]

So, are there any Muslims who believe the “original” Koran has been corrupted?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

… why didn’t they go back to that point in time/scripture where they believe it was corrupted and go from there. .

why take unnecessary troubles when we follow the Final Holy Book of God Almighty ? Why not join us ?

 

[ralphinal]

`How can you say, “We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?’ … (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)

Deuteronomy 31:25-29
25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD :
26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.
27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die!
28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them.
29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

Christians have a lot of nerve blaming Muslims for choosing to believe what Moses (pbuh) said as clearly written in their own Bible.

Anyone who does not believe in the truth of the Qur’an really should not consider himself to be a Muslim.

In comparison, if someone chooses to disbelieve what is clearly written in the Bible, then is he or she still considered a “believer” in the teachings of Christianity?

Moses never said that the Words of the Torah would be changed. Show where he did.

Show where Jeremiah said that they CHANGED the words in the passage. I am posting more than just verse 8 for you.

1 " ‘At that time, declares the LORD, the bones of the kings and officials of Judah, the bones of the priests and prophets, and the bones of the people of Jerusalem will be removed from their graves. 2 They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens, which they have loved and served and which they have followed and consulted and worshiped. They will not be gathered up or buried, but will be like refuse lying on the ground. 3 Wherever I banish them, all the survivors of this evil nation will prefer death to life, declares the LORD Almighty.’

Sin and Punishment
4 "Say to them, 'This is what the LORD says:
" 'When men fall down, do they not get up?
When a man turns away, does he not return?

5 Why then have these people turned away? 
   Why does Jerusalem always turn away? 
   They cling to deceit; 
   they refuse to return.

6 I have listened attentively, 
   but they do not say what is right. 
   No one repents of his wickedness, 
   saying, "What have I done?" 
   Each pursues his own course 
   like a horse charging into battle.

7 Even the stork in the sky 
   knows her appointed seasons, 
   and the dove, the swift and the thrush 
   observe the time of their migration. 
   But my people do not know 
   the requirements of the LORD.

8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise, 
   for we have the law of the LORD," 
   when actually the lying pen of the scribes 
   has handled it falsely?

9 The wise will be put to shame; 
   they will be dismayed and trapped. 
   Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, 
   what kind of wisdom do they have?

You want these verses to mean the words were changed. SHOW the corrupt passages.

Funny, Allah never did, did he?

 

[Sister_Amy]

After reading the first page I began to wonder if any Muslims would actually participate in this thread, or if it was going to be totally useless… seems some Muslims did reply then, on page 2.

I think the whole discussion thus far has been a little silly.

Being “Jewish” is more than just following a particular religion. I mean, when did Jews start calling themselves Jews anyway? The Qur’an talks about the Children of Israel and about the Jews. There are different words… fascinating really, why one is used vs. the other. Can see the Jews as being a subset of the descendents of Isaac, specifically the descendents of Jacob (who are called the Children of Israel)?

Because Muslims are not by and large descendents of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. They are spiritual descendents of Abraham (in the greater sense) while mostly the literal descendents of Abraham are really the “Jews” who converted to Islam, and of course the Arabs who trace a line through Ishmael.

Anyway, it’s a weird question to ask why Muslims aren’t Jewish. Why aren’t Christians Jewish? It’s just weird. Some Jews can be Muslim, and are. They retain the label of being Jewish as an ethnic rather than religious identity.

But what a Muslim is is someone who submits his will to God’s, someone who believes in Allah and in all of Allah’s messengers, including Muhammad.