Why Aren't the Jewish People more Pro-life?

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But we are taught the Catholic religion is based on the Jewish religion and orthodox Jews follow the Old Testament. Doesn’t the Old Testament have anything about abortion and now bad it is?

Just what is the Orthodox Jewish position on abortion and do they allow it up until the baby is born? If so, then why hasn’t the Catholic religion followed them in that teaching? I don’t see any Jews getting involved with the pro-life movement, do you?
 
But we are taught the Catholic religion is based on the Jewish religion and orthodox Jews follow the Old Testament. Doesn’t the Old Testament have anything about abortion and now bad it is?

Just what is the Orthodox Jewish position on abortion and do they allow it up until the baby is born? If so, then why hasn’t the Catholic religion followed them in that teaching? I don’t see any Jews getting involved with the pro-life movement, do you?
Did you follow the link in post #5?
 
What I find astonishing is the rate of abortion in the US as compared to other countries.

Here are the rates / 1000 women aged 15 to 44 for selected developed countries:

United States…21.3
Australia…22.2
Sweden…18.7
Denmark…16.5
Canada…16.4
England & Wales…15.6
Germany…7.6
Holland…6.5

The US and Australia are outliers on the upside while Germany and Netherlands have relatively few abortions.
 
But we are taught the Catholic religion is based on the Jewish religion and orthodox Jews follow the Old Testament. Doesn’t the Old Testament have anything about abortion and now bad it is?

Just what is the Orthodox Jewish position on abortion and do they allow it up until the baby is born? If so, then why hasn’t the Catholic religion followed them in that teaching? I don’t see any Jews getting involved with the pro-life movement, do you?
Because Judaism 2000 years ago is different to Judaism now. 2000 years ago there were so many differing and competing views and ideas, (of which Jesus was just part of one). After the death of our Lord, even more changes occurred. I don’t even consider the religion now to be the same one.

I’ve seen some Jewish involvement in the pro-life movement, but it’s not that significant and definitely not as involved as their participation in the pro-abortion movement, which is definitely something to talk about.
 
Because Judaism 2000 years ago is different to Judaism now. 2000 years ago there were so many differing and competing views and ideas, (of which Jesus was just part of one). After the death of our Lord, even more changes occurred. I don’t even consider the religion now to be the same one.
Perhaps you might care to tell us more about this?

You see, when I see this sort of argument, I wonder what sort of Judaism people thought existed back then. There were certainly small sects (it was a horrific time for the Jewish people, sects tend to emerge in such situations in all religions) but there were really just two, what might be described as, ‘systems’. There was the Temple (on and off in our history) with its Priests and there were synagogues with their rabbis (the entire Jewish population didn’t turn up in Jerusalem every Saturday for a quick sacrifice) - with the destruction of the Temple, the Temple ‘system’ ended but the synagogue ‘system’ continued.

Now, if I were to say to a Catholic that the Christian religion was not the same one, I’d get told that it was all a seamless development but, somehow, there’s the idea that Judaism has changed although it’s an equivalently seamless development from the Judaism experienced by most Jews at the time.
 
And it may be time for Kanichen to reconcile herself to the fact that Catholicism never thought of Judaism as Christianity minus Jesus: this concept was the consequence of an Enlightenment ideal, one of the many Enlightenment happy fables invented to erase the concept of original sin from, and promote religious indifferentism in, Christian societies.

My other favourite Enlightenment fable that is also confused as a Christian teaching is the one that women are completely passive, compliant, utterly unambitious and asexual (lustless) creatures who are incapable of a desire for violence or revenge, a view that climaxed in the Victorian view of women and paved the way for the Stepford Wife expectation of women in the '50s and '60s. Modern feminism, beginning in the '60’s (and lead by a Jewess in America, if I recall) finally restored a more realistic and balanced view in keeping with reality, much to the relief of women who were naturally tired of the impossible social expectation that they look, act and behave like fragile Porcelain Dolls.
I think it’s time that Catholics reconcile themselves to the fact that Judaism is an entirely different religion, not Christianity minus Jesus.

If you read the link, you’ll discover what the Jewish position is about.
 
It would seem to me that the Temple, not the Talmud, held the first (or foremost) and central point of unity in Jewish society even during the Babylonian exile: the chosen people wanted a return to Jerusalem - not for Jerusalem’s sake - but for the sake of restoring the Temple. Indeed, you were a schismatic not for starting a novel interpretation of the Law, but when you removed yourself from acknowledging the validity of, or from participating in, the Temple system/liturgy. The lamentations over the loss of the Temple recorded in the Bible were by no means completely assuaged by the emerging rabbinical or Talmudic system: the Rabbi, Synagogue or the Talmud was an imperfect substitute for the Temple, meant to retain as best as possible what the Temple provided for the people of Israel: a central point of unity that preserved them as a social and religious cohesion from generation to generation.

[13] And they set up false witnesses [against St. Stephen], who said: This man ceaseth not **to speak words against the holy place *** and the law. [14] For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth **shall destroy this place **[the Temple], and shall change the traditions which Moses delivered unto us.

When St. Stephen was brought to court, the accusation against him was changed from being one of uttering blasphemies against God and blaspheming Moses (v.11), to threatening to destroy -in the first place- the Temple; the original accusation then also mutated (escalated) to giving the impression that St Stephen had dismissed the Law entirely and spoke of it as being evil (or something- the accusation is deliberately vague). Of the accusations, the former was more actionable, as it was considered a direct assault on the whole of Jewish society, culture and identity: to attack the Temple was to attack the people of Israel at their very heart.

In the case of Jesus, it was again not until he seemed to threaten the Temple itself that action was finally taken against him: his apparently novel interpretation of the Law and the Prophets was not considered a very real threat to Jewish culture, cohesion or identity; it was, however, his apparent threat to destroy the Temple that made him appear to be a very real threat to all Israel: all of this makes rather plain the unique role the Temple played in Jewish culture at the time.

Though I agree that it is extremely erroneous to think that modern Judaism does not posses a real logical continuity with the Judaism contemporary to Jesus or the centuries leading up to that whole period, up to the destruction of the Temple and the Council of Jamnia [sp?] ca. A.D./c.e. 90.
Perhaps you might care to tell us more about this?

You see, when I see this sort of argument, I wonder what sort of Judaism people thought existed back then. There were certainly small sects (it was a horrific time for the Jewish people, sects tend to emerge in such situations in all religions) but there were really just two, what might be described as, ‘systems’. There was the Temple (on and off in our history) with its Priests and there were synagogues with their rabbis (the entire Jewish population didn’t turn up in Jerusalem every Saturday for a quick sacrifice) - with the destruction of the Temple, the Temple ‘system’ ended but the synagogue ‘system’ continued.

Now, if I were to say to a Catholic that the Christian religion was not the same one, I’d get told that it was all a seamless development but, somehow, there’s the idea that Judaism has changed although it’s an equivalently seamless development from the Judaism experienced by most Jews at the time.
 
I’m not going to get involved in a debate about abortion (“Don’t talk about sex, don’t even talk about not talking about sex.”) but there are a few things I will say in response.
What’s wrong with talking about sex?

Catholic mystics, theologians and even Popes have written entire compendiums about sex. Indeed, not a few nuns have written books about sex that - at least in North America - would only be available in the 18+/Adult Only section, hidden from view behind a curtain: to call them ‘racy,’ in some instances, would be a gross understatement!
 
And it may be time for Kanichen to reconcile herself to the fact that Catholicism never thought of Judaism as Christianity minus Jesus: this concept was the consequence of an Enlightenment ideal, one of the many Enlightenment happy fables invented to erase the concept of original sin from, and promote religious indifferentism in, Christian societies.
I never said ‘Catholicism’, I said ‘Catholics’. Of course, I should have said “Catholics who have been involved in such threads over the past six years,” I failed to do so, so apologies.

I’ve wondered about asking for more on the subject of “consequence of an Enlightenment ideal” but decided that, since explanation might end up being an ‘eyes glazing over’ experience, I’d better not. 🙂
 
What’s wrong with talking about sex?

Catholic mystics, theologians and even Popes have written entire compendiums about sex. Indeed, not a few nuns have written books about sex that - at least in North America - would only be available in the 18+/Adult Only section, hidden from view behind a curtain: to call them ‘racy,’ in some instances, would be a gross understatement!
When I first mentioned ‘Don’t talk about sex . . . .’ on this thread, it was in the context of survival on CAF - from experience and observation, there are some topics that are best avoided.
 
I’ve wondered about asking for more on the subject of “consequence of an Enlightenment ideal” but decided that, since explanation might end up being an ‘eyes glazing over’ experience, I’d better not. 🙂
Well, if you can offer a more plausible source for the fable, then by all means do so.
 
When I first mentioned ‘Don’t talk about sex . . . .’ on this thread, it was in the context of survival on CAF - from experience and observation, there are some topics that are best avoided.
So I really shouldn’t go ahead and start that thread on the Kama Sutra? I will have to find the French equivalent to Catholic Answers then.
 
Because Judaism 2000 years ago is different to Judaism now. 2000 years ago there were so many differing and competing views and ideas, (of which Jesus was just part of one). After the death of our Lord, even more changes occurred. I don’t even consider the religion now to be the same one.

I’ve seen some Jewish involvement in the pro-life movement, but it’s not that significant and definitely not as involved as their participation in the pro-abortion movement, which is definitely something to talk about.
gatorayd - I have been told by some Jewish family members (who consider themselves liberal), that the real issue at hand is that many Jewish people are connecting the pro-life movement with Christianity and they are afraid of a Christian takeover of the U.S.

Therefore, if they support the political groups/ideas that oppose conservative Christian values, they are somehow being more Jewish in preventing this “takeover”.

Maybe there is some truth to this outside of my Jewish circle of relatives (by marriage) or maybe some of the Jewish people on this thread could weigh in on this and give a different view.

Maybe some Jewish people think that by being pro-life would somehow mean they are aligning themselves with the Christians which I think is something they try very hard to avoid (possibly to avoid losing family members to interfaith marriage etc.) At least, that is the situation in my little corner of the world. 🙂
 
So I really shouldn’t go ahead and start that thread on the Kama Sutra? I will have to find the French equivalent to Catholic Answers then.
Hey, maybe then we will finally be able to shake off these tired, old stereotypes. 👍
 
Now, if I were to say to a Catholic that the Christian religion was not the same one, I’d get told that it was all a seamless development but, somehow, there’s the idea that Judaism has changed although it’s an equivalently seamless development from the Judaism experienced by most Jews at the time.
Asking a little too much of them don’tcha think Kaninchen? 😉

I don’t doubt that those whose professional lives revolve around the examination of world religions or inter-religious dialogue between their Church and the Jewish People (however so construed) would agree with you.

However - that’s a a very small portion of people who handle nuances very well.

To the armchair theologian or the “informed Catholic” (differentiating from those they label as unengaged or “Cafeterian”) - a narrative of degeneration may seem necessary given their own theological beliefs.
 
Is there in the whole wide-world a more pro-life people than the Jewish People? I don’t think
so. They even have the concept of “Pichuach Nephesh” which allows them to break a commandment as long as life is to be preserved. With regards to abortion, they consider the life of the mother who is already living more important than that of the child who hasn’t been born yet. In other words, they are in favor of abortion only when the life of the mother is in danger. They also believe in the freedom of the mother. Hence, they leave up to the mother to exercise her right to choose when to give birth and when not to. If there is any consequence to her making the wrong choice, the effects caused by any transgression of the law, will be laid upon her own head. That’s her body and no one has the right to act upon it other than herself.
 
Hence, they leave up to the mother to exercise her right to choose when to give birth and when not to. If there is any consequence to her making the wrong choice, the effects caused by any transgression of the law, will be laid upon her own head. That’s her body and no one has the right to act upon it other than herself.
Perhaps you might provide Halachic opinion on that?
 
Asking a little too much of them don’tcha think Kaninchen? 😉

I don’t doubt that those whose professional lives revolve around the examination of world religions or inter-religious dialogue between their Church and the Jewish People (however so construed) would agree with you.

However - that’s a a very small portion of people who handle nuances very well.

To the armchair theologian or the “informed Catholic” (differentiating from those they label as unengaged or “Cafeterian”) - a narrative of degeneration may seem necessary given their own theological beliefs.
The idea gets bandied about here quite casually, perhaps it’s because the Christian paradigm is so bound up with the Sacrificial System (The Temple) that they think that, historically, that’s all that Judaism was all about.

Of course, to people wedded to authority, the idea of a 3000+ year row about God (and even with God) might seem quite outlandish! 😉
 
Perhaps you might provide Halachic opinion on that?
It is very simple and logic. We don’t have to struggle to look for Halachic opinion or to appeal to authorities. Have you ever heard about the law of cause and effect? It was first discussed by Isaac Newton. Whatever one does, good or bad, the effect that’s caused by the action is harvested by the one who caused it.
 
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