Why aren't women allowed to be priests?

[Pat_De]

Can you explain what you mean by this? It makes no sense to me, as a Catholic. There are plenty of people (ministers) that are allowed by the Catholic Church to preach even though they are not pastors. Thanks.

The qualifications for pastors or elders or presbyters or bishops, all the same or synonymously used in Scripture in 1 timothy and Titus. There is no such thing as a “Priest”; liken to the Levitical priesthood which stood daily giving sacrifice. Once Jesus make the only sacrifice that was acceptable to God, then it was “finished” and no more sacrifices are needed to redeem the elect; the great price was paid in full. Now the elect are saved by Jesus Christ’s death and the chosen make up the church and the royal priesthood with Jesus as the great high priest; no other priesthood exists in the NT. Read Hebrews 7,8 & 9

Ironically Peter is the one who made the proclamation in 1 peter 2:9 and the second half of the verse explains what the duty of that “royal priesthood” is as the following states: ***“so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;” *** In other words, to give or share the “Good news” or gospel, which all true Christians do because that is what Christians are called to do and more importantly desire to do because they know what is at stake.

Why do you think their are such few people that actually proclaim the true gospel and share their faith with intention, gladness and obedience for the glory of God? Matthew 7:13-29 and Luke 13:23

It is because the people calling themselves Christians are not Christians because God has not granted them repentance, granted them faith, removed the veil of blindness nor granted Salvation. People who are false Christians make God in their image which does not resemble the God of the Christian Bible. If people read and understood the Bible and then, they would not be so easily lead astray by a false gospel. Look around it is everywhere one turns and the one’s that refuse to study and read the Bible and ask, seek and knock on their knees for a new heart and ask for the blinders to be removed are in judgment under false teaching, which is why the greatest condemnation Jesus ever gave was to the false teachers and theirs will be a greater hell.

Personally I believe that people that sit under false teaching, like the Joel Osteens of the world are under God’s judgment because they desire what the false teacher desires.

God said not one man seeks after Him, none are righteous, not one, all have gone astray and all are DEAD in their trespasses and sins. A DEAD person can’t respond to anything much less God unless God removes the veil of blindness and awakens them. Read 2 Cor 2 and here is an example: “But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.” Guess what a DEAD man can’t turn unless God grants them repentance. Read 2 Tim. 2 "if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, "

Salvation is all of God and nothing to do with man or man’s will; if man were left to his own will, then no one would enter into heaven. If not for the doctrine of election no one would be in heaven because people do not understand the depravity of their sin and their love for sin and their hatred toward God, but thank God that Jesus Christ was willing and able to die primarily for His namesake and for His elect He chose to give to the Son that the elect would worship and glorify Him for all eternity.

Eph 1:1-14, Romans 3:9-19, Luke 3:22, Eph 2:1-3, Rom. 8:29-39, Acts 2:23-24, John 6:44-45, 2 Cor 3:14-17, John 15:16, Matt 22:14, John 15:19, Acts 9:15, Rom 11:7-8, 1 Pet. 1, Col 3:12, 2 thes.2:13, 2 Tim 2:10 Isa 64:4 and it goes on and on. there are going to be so many religious people in the name of Christianity that say on the day of their judgment “Lord Lord”, but it will be too little too late because the door will be shut.

 

[FOFEBA]

It appears that silly geese might be moderating. I received the following message recently.

Your account has been locked for the following reason:
Agenda of atheistic contempt for the Catgholic faith and its leaders.

This change will be lifted: Never

This is simply because I raised the question of the Pope’s sexuality, which has been legitimately questioned by responsible investigators. One must wonder if an over reaction is the result of repressed sexual issues. It is clear that the moderator was too upset to spell the word “Catholic” correctly, which one would assume is not an abnormal key sequence on the keyboard.

Be ashamed moderator. Your attempt at censorship is immature and unwarranted.

Your actions suggest that your faith is shallow.

I am not an atheist, so atheistic contempt would not be possible from me. I was raised in the Catholic Church, so it would not be surprising that I would have some negative opinions of the Church. How fragile is your faith that you must try to exclude those who disagree with your point of view?

 

[jmcrae]

Your actions suggest that your faith is shallow.

I am not an atheist, so atheistic contempt would not be possible from me. I was raised in the Catholic Church, so it would not be surprising that I would have some negative opinions of the Church. How fragile is your faith that you must try to exclude those who disagree with your point of view?

There are lots of people on this Board who disagree with us - Zooey, Edwin, Gurney, Julia, Anna, and many more - somehow, they manage to ask questions in a respectful way, as if seeking information, instead of couching snide remarks into the form of a question, or making pronouncements about how wrong our faith is.

 

[dnar]

Where does Scripture prohibit women priests? I’m curious because Catholic scholars, as recognized by the Vatican have demonstrated that there is nothing in Scripture itself that prohibits ordaining women. Thanks for any Scriptural references that are part of Catholic Church teaching on this issue! I look forward to it.

Most Catholics would agree that 1 Timothy and Titus were both inspired and Scriptural as taught by the Catholic Church. So I will put these two verses out there.

Douay-Rheims Bible

1 Timothy 3:1; A faithful saying: If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth good work.
1 Timothy 3:2; It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher,

Titus 1:6; If any be without crime,the husband of one wife. having faithful children, not accused of riot or unruly.

When Paul was giving the requirements for bishops and deacons I think he would know who the Church was allowing to be bishops, priests, and deacons.

In the list of requirements please explain to me how a woman could possibly EVER be the husband of one wife.

 

[dnar]

I assume that’s your personal opinion? Not an infallibly taught doctrine of the Catholic Church? Thanks for any clarification.

It is my personal opinion that this topic be placed on the ban topics list.

It is not my personal opinion that there will never be any Roman Catholic women priests. Due to the fact the church lacks the authority, it can’t happen.

Anything else need clarifying?

 

[FOFEBA]

There are lots of people on this Board who disagree with us - Zooey, Edwin, Gurney, Julia, Anna, and many more - somehow, they manage to ask questions in a respectful way, as if seeking information, instead of couching snide remarks into the form of a question, or making pronouncements about how wrong our faith is.

Heheh… nice. Would your comment not qualify as a “snide remark”?

 

[jmcrae]

Heheh… nice. Would your comment not qualify as a “snide remark”?

Nope - just stating reality as I see it. Nothing sly or sneaky about it.

 

[PRmerger]

Heheh… nice. Would your comment not qualify as a “snide remark”?

No, it would not qualify as a snide remark at all.

Now, let’s get back to the topic.

Do you think that someone who’s ontologically changed at baptism looks any different than a non-baptized pagan?

 

[diggerdomer]

Indeed.

And what about teachings that have been definitively defined? Are not those “important to the Church” as well?

See, I just don’t get why it matters whether the teaching on the ordination of women has been defined “infallibly”. It has been defined “definitively”, correct?

Again, it’s like your children saying to you, “You said I had to be home at midnight–and you made that quite clear-- but you didn’t have it written down on the note with the other instructions you gave me…so do I still have to be home at midnight?” :banghead:

Of course definitively defined teachings are important. Who suggested otherwise?

If you don’t see the difference between teachings taught infallibly and teachings not taught infallibly, then let me ask…why bother with infallibility? If there is no difference, why does the Church take such pains (in canon law and ecumenical conciliar teaching) to address it?

Let me ask, just to clarify…you do recognize that the Catholic Church teaches some teachings infallibly, but most (vast majority) teachings non-infallibly, right? And that whether a specific teaching is taught infallibly is separate from whether such teaching is true, binding, etc.?

The point is, when the Church invokes the charism of teaching infallibly, Catholics are obliged to receive such teachings as divine truth.

Does this help?

 

[diggerdomer]

The qualifications for pastors or elders or presbyters or bishops, all the same or synonymously used in Scripture in 1 timothy and Titus. There is no such thing as a “Priest”; liken to the Levitical priesthood which stood daily giving sacrifice. Once Jesus make the only sacrifice that was acceptable to God, then it was “finished” and no more sacrifices are needed to redeem the elect; the great price was paid in full. Now the elect are saved by Jesus Christ’s death and the chosen make up the church and the royal priesthood with Jesus as the great high priest; no other priesthood exists in the NT. Read Hebrews 7,8 & 9

Ironically Peter is the one who made the proclamation in 1 peter 2:9 and the second half of the verse explains what the duty of that “royal priesthood” is as the following states: ***“so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;” *** In other words, to give or share the “Good news” or gospel, which all true Christians do because that is what Christians are called to do and more importantly desire to do because they know what is at stake.

Why do you think their are such few people that actually proclaim the true gospel and share their faith with intention, gladness and obedience for the glory of God? Matthew 7:13-29 and Luke 13:23

It is because the people calling themselves Christians are not Christians because God has not granted them repentance, granted them faith, removed the veil of blindness nor granted Salvation. People who are false Christians make God in their image which does not resemble the God of the Christian Bible. If people read and understood the Bible and then, they would not be so easily lead astray by a false gospel. Look around it is everywhere one turns and the one’s that refuse to study and read the Bible and ask, seek and knock on their knees for a new heart and ask for the blinders to be removed are in judgment under false teaching, which is why the greatest condemnation Jesus ever gave was to the false teachers and theirs will be a greater hell.

Personally I believe that people that sit under false teaching, like the Joel Osteens of the world are under God’s judgment because they desire what the false teacher desires.

God said not one man seeks after Him, none are righteous, not one, all have gone astray and all are DEAD in their trespasses and sins. A DEAD person can’t respond to anything much less God unless God removes the veil of blindness and awakens them. Read 2 Cor 2 and here is an example: “But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.” Guess what a DEAD man can’t turn unless God grants them repentance. Read 2 Tim. 2 "if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, "

Salvation is all of God and nothing to do with man or man’s will; if man were left to his own will, then no one would enter into heaven. If not for the doctrine of election no one would be in heaven because people do not understand the depravity of their sin and their love for sin and their hatred toward God, but thank God that Jesus Christ was willing and able to die primarily for His namesake and for His elect He chose to give to the Son that the elect would worship and glorify Him for all eternity.

Eph 1:1-14, Romans 3:9-19, Luke 3:22, Eph 2:1-3, Rom. 8:29-39, Acts 2:23-24, John 6:44-45, 2 Cor 3:14-17, John 15:16, Matt 22:14, John 15:19, Acts 9:15, Rom 11:7-8, 1 Pet. 1, Col 3:12, 2 thes.2:13, 2 Tim 2:10 Isa 64:4 and it goes on and on. there are going to be so many religious people in the name of Christianity that say on the day of their judgment “Lord Lord”, but it will be too little too late because the door will be shut.

Ummm…ok…but I don’t see what you mean.

You said “recisely stated; because only men that are pastors are suppose to preach behind the pulpit”

I disagree.

It’s completely common and licit and valid in the Catholic Church for non-pastors to preach at the pulpit. Priests (and Bishops) who are not pastors can preach. Deacons can preach. Lay people can, in certain specifically allowed circumstances, preach at liturgical celebrations.

So…your point? Thanks.

 

[diggerdomer]

It is my personal opinion that this topic be placed on the ban topics list.

It is not my personal opinion that there will never be any Roman Catholic women priests. Due to the fact the church lacks the authority, it can’t happen.

Anything else need clarifying?

If you agree that such is not taught infallibly, then no further clarification is needed.

 

[PRmerger]

Of course definitively defined teachings are important. Who suggested otherwise?

Ok. I guess I just saw in your posts a “where’s the Catholic loophole” mentality. My bad.

Originally posted by Apologist Mark Shea: Not that it matters much as far as our obedience to it should go. Most Catholic teaching is not infallibly defined. What matters for us, the faithful is, “Is it an authoritative teaching?” The answer is yes, which is why your willingness to obey it is such a lovely and refreshing thing to see. Some on the Rubber Hose Right enjoy playing the same game with torture that the Pelvic Left likes to play with whatever impinges on their sex lives. It’s what I call the Minimum Daily Adult Requirement Christianity Ploy. According to this ploy, we only have to pay attention to the Church when she infallibly defines something. The rest we can blow off it is inconvenient to our politics, sex lives, or peer group acceptance. I think this approach is rubbish. I think the Church’s teaching is simply normative and, though there can sometime be various pastoral exceptions to the norm, the first rule of thumb is, “How do I obey this?” not "How do I figure out a loophole to avoid this and make excuses for the preferred sins of my tribe?"

If you don’t see the difference between teachings taught infallibly and teachings not taught infallibly, then let me ask…why bother with infallibility?

That is a fair question.

Infallibility gives us a divine assurance of Truth. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

 

[1believer1]

Ummm…ok…but I don’t see what you mean.

You said “recisely stated; because only men that are pastors are suppose to preach behind the pulpit”

I disagree.

It’s completely common and licit and valid in the Catholic Church for non-pastors to preach at the pulpit. Priests (and Bishops) who are not pastors can preach. Deacons can preach. Lay people can, in certain specifically allowed circumstances, preach at liturgical celebrations.

So…your point? Thanks.

I may be mistaken, but only ordained men can licitly preach. This would of course include Bishops, Priests or Deacons, but not lay people. Lay people might be able to give a message or teaching, but they are not allowed to preach. Please correct me if I am wrong ( but I do not think I am mistaken on this point ).

 

[PRmerger]

I may be mistaken, but only ordained men can licitly preach. This would of course include Bishops, Priests or Deacons, but not lay people. Lay people might be able to give a message or teaching, but they are not allowed to preach. Please correct me if I am wrong ( but I do not think I am mistaken on this point ).

You are correct. Only those who are ordained are allowed to preach from the pulpit.

 

[FOFEBA]

I guess the question that I would raise, is whether God has gender at all? Sure, Jesus appeared as a man. Would anyone have taken a woman seriously two millenia ago?

I have lived long enough to observe the cultural shifts in the Church, which had more to do with popular sentiment than with its religious heritage.

The other thing which I wonder about, is what role does celibacy play in the denial of women as being able to fully participate? In churches where the celebrants are allowed to have families, we see that women are being ordained. The question that comes to mind, is whether this is just the old boys club trying to perpetuate its exclusivity.

Nobody hear would be foolish enough (i hope), the suggest that the views on gender and sexuality 2,000 years ago would agree with our own views today.

 

[jmcrae]

The point is, when the Church invokes the charism of teaching infallibly, Catholics are obliged to receive such teachings as divine truth.

Does this help?

There are also a great many divine truths that are not taught infallibly - such as that Jesus is God and Man, the Trinity, the nature of the Church, and so on, which we are also required to believe, since not to believe them would be heresy.

 

[minkymurph]

There are also a great many divine truths that are not taught infallibly - such as that Jesus is God and Man, the Trinity, the nature of the Church, and so on, which we are also required to believe, since not to believe them would be heresy.

I agree there are a great many divine truths that are not taught infallibly. I would respectfully say, Jesus is God and Man is not one of them. As far as I know, this is taught infallibly. The nature of the Church; I don’t think this is taught infallibly. But, as you quite rightly say, as Catholics we are required to believe the Church’s interpretation of this despite the fact it is not infallibly taught.

We are required to believe it not out of blind obedience, but because it is the Church’s understanding of the nature of the church. To believe otherwise, would change the nature of our faith as Catholics. As Catholics, we look to the Church for interpretation, even if it is not infallibly taught. An examination of the Catholic faith demonstrates many doctrines have been believed for a long time before it has been declared infallible. As I understand it, having something declared infallible is a lengthy process. If something is not infallible, that does not mean it is not true and we should not believe it.

My point is, does something have to be declared infallible before we will believe? Do we need such certainty? That does not mean we have a blind faith absent of reason. There are reasons why we believe what we do. Do we rely on infallibility too much? When I say that, what I mean is, if everything we believe is infallible, we would have no need of faith. Does that make sense?

 

[jmcrae]

My point is, does something have to be declared infallible before we will believe? Do we need such certainty? That does not mean we have a blind faith absent of reason. There are reasons why we believe what we do. Do we rely on infallibility too much? When I say that, what I mean is, if everything we believe is infallible, we would have no need of faith. Does that make sense?

I agree with you.

 

[diggerdomer]

I may be mistaken, but only ordained men can licitly preach.

You do misunderstand. Only ordained men can preach at Mass (Eucharist). That does not preclude non-ordained men from preaching at other liturgical services.

Here in the U.S., our bishops have provided exceptionally valuable directives on this regarding canon law. You can review what the U.S. Bishops teach here: usccb.org/norms/766.htm

Hope this helps.

 

[diggerdomer]

There are also a great many divine truths that are not taught infallibly - such as that Jesus is God and Man, the Trinity, the nature of the Church, and so on, which we are also required to believe, since not to believe them would be heresy.

Of course. No kidding. But…if it need be said, thank you for saying it so clearly. A fine comment.