Why Asian Muslims didn't explode

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Ahimsa

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JAKARTA, Indonesia

Southeast Asian Muslims have not been roiled by a clash of civilizations. Rather, people like me - Western-trained, English-speaking and constantly traveling - have begun to see the subtle differences that fracture our civilizations from within.

Whether we are conservative or liberal, many of us are appalled and angered by the stupidity and insensitivity of the Danish newspaper cartoons. But that doesn’t mean we’ve taken leave of our senses.

I may be a Muslim, but I can tell the difference between a newspaper and a people, a country and a principle.
 
Ahimsa said:
JAKARTA, Indonesia

Southeast Asian Muslims have not been roiled by a clash of civilizations. Rather, people like me - Western-trained, English-speaking and constantly traveling - have begun to see the subtle differences that fracture our civilizations from within.

Whether we are conservative or liberal, many of us are appalled and angered by the stupidity and insensitivity of the Danish newspaper cartoons. But that doesn’t mean we’ve taken leave of our senses.

I may be a Muslim, but I can tell the difference between a newspaper and a people, a country and a principle.
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And, I for one believe this Muslim.

I believe the underlying problem in the Arab Muslim nations comes down to these:
  1. The U.S. friendship with Israel (the sworn enemy of the Arab nations)
  2. The war in Iraq
  3. Abuses by U.S. troops and European troops in the war in Iraq (remember Abu Gharib?)
These are three things right off the noggin that could be seen as factors in the growing resentment of Europe and America. As Osama Bin Laden has pointed out before - he sees America as the great Satan who consorts with Israel and has “invaded” Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Muslim minority in the southern part of Thailand has created some real problems for the past many years. They struggle against the Buddhist political powers that be. Their struggle is seen as a matter of rights and abuses, not of Buddhism vs. Islam. This is the only part of Asia where I have seen problems between Muslims and Buddhists. Also, Kashmir seems to be a hotbed of conflict between India and the minority Muslims there.

Hopefully, things will calm down and extremists will chill out. And, hopefully the Muslim leadership will do more to quell the violence. More has to be done.

Peace…
 
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ahimsaman72:
And, I for one believe this Muslim.

I believe the underlying problem in the Arab Muslim nations comes down to these:
  1. The U.S. friendship with Israel (the sworn enemy of the Arab nations)
  2. The war in Iraq
  3. Abuses by U.S. troops and European troops in the war in Iraq (remember Abu Gharib?)
These are three things right off the noggin that could be seen as factors in the growing resentment of Europe and America. As Osama Bin Laden has pointed out before - he sees America as the great Satan who consorts with Israel and has “invaded” Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Muslim minority in the southern part of Thailand has created some real problems for the past many years. They struggle against the Buddhist political powers that be. Their struggle is seen as a matter of rights and abuses, not of Buddhism vs. Islam. This is the only part of Asia where I have seen problems between Muslims and Buddhists. Also, Kashmir seems to be a hotbed of conflict between India and the minority Muslims there.

Hopefully, things will calm down and extremists will chill out. And, hopefully the Muslim leadership will do more to quell the violence. More has to be done.

Peace…
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I find it fascinating that you attribute Moslem violence to the U.S. behavior in all 3 examples. Absolutely amazing! Virtually in every Islamic dominated country there has been violence and unrest on an ongoing basis both internally and with its neighbors. Things unfortunately will not calm down. As long as a 7th and 8th century mentality using its “religion of peace” as its justification for its actions continues to grow, non-muslim cultures will be threatened. Islam expands through domination and submission of other cultures and religions…it always has. To point to the US as the primary reason is ridiculous. The US is a major target because its so big. But its one of many. (eg Danish cartoonists, UK novelists, French school systems restricting headcoverings, etc.) All threatened with death and violence.
May God Bless you!
 
Ahimsa said:
JAKARTA, Indonesia

Southeast Asian Muslims have not been roiled by a clash of civilizations. Rather, people like me - Western-trained, English-speaking and constantly traveling - have begun to see the subtle differences that fracture our civilizations from within.

Whether we are conservative or liberal, many of us are appalled and angered by the stupidity and insensitivity of the Danish newspaper cartoons. But that doesn’t mean we’ve taken leave of our senses.

I may be a Muslim, but I can tell the difference between a newspaper and a people, a country and a principle.
Click to expand...

Just heard on CNN today that the Muslims are demonstrating in Hong Kong. I guess its contagious.
 
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byHisGrace:
I find it fascinating that you attribute Moslem violence to the U.S. behavior in all 3 examples. Absolutely amazing! Virtually in every Islamic dominated country there has been violence and unrest on an ongoing basis both internally and with its neighbors. Things unfortunately will not calm down. As long as a 7th and 8th century mentality using its “religion of peace” as its justification for its actions continues to grow, non-muslim cultures will be threatened. Islam expands through domination and submission of other cultures and religions…it always has. To point to the US as the primary reason is ridiculous. The US is a major target because its so big. But its one of many. (eg Danish cartoonists, UK novelists, French school systems restricting headcoverings, etc.) All threatened with death and violence.
May God Bless you!
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Let’s look at exactly what I said for a minute instead of using emotions: Here is my exact quote:
These are three things right off the noggin that could be seen as factors in the growing resentment of Europe and America. As Osama Bin Laden has pointed out before - he sees America as the great Satan who consorts with Israel and has “invaded” Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Did you not notice what I said here? Those three things can be seen as FACTORS in the resentment towards Europe and America. Is that such a far out idea? I’m not villifying American behavior. Right or wrong, American behavior is seen by Arab Muslims as an affront to them.

I’ve seen news story after news story where Arab Muslims have been interviewed and these are reasons they themselves have given for their hatred for the US and Europe. Right or wrong, these are their perceptions. And, like it or not, that is reality.

By the way, there are European and Asian countries where Muslims live rather peacefully with their neighbors. England is a good example of this. And, as pointed out on this thread, Asian countries have few problems - excepting the problem in Southern Thailand which is less religious based, but rather a conflict based on accusations of favoritism and bias of the different groups there.

I personally don’t agree with the Iraq war or our chummy relationship with Israel either. But, there is no reason for the Muslim violence going on right now. It is uncalled for and wrong on many levels. Violence is not the answer for any side. So, I’m an equal opportunity critic of violence and disrespect for any human.

Peace…
 
nucatholic said:
cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/19/indonesia.cartoons.ap/index.html

Attacking a US embassy, no biggie right?
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According to the article you cite:
“The protesters Sunday were members of the Islamic Defenders Front, which campaigns for Islamic law and often takes to the street against perceived violators of Islamic rules at home or abroad.”
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and also this:
“Most Muslims in Indonesia practice a moderate form of the faith, but fundamentalist thought is gaining a foothold in the country of 220 million, which has been hit by five terrorist attacks since 2000.”
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and also this:
The U.S. Embassy condemned the violence, saying it was a “premeditated event” staged for television by a small group that “seeks to disrupt the relationship between the United States and Indonesia.”
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So, let me summarize this simply for you:

This was a premeditated and staged event by the IDF which is an extreme, fundamentalist Muslim group who used this as another opportunity to gain television time and act stupid and embarrass the admittedly mostly moderate Muslim community in Indonesia.

Is the situation you cited clear now?

Peace…
 
Ahimsa said:
JAKARTA, Indonesia

Southeast Asian Muslims have not been roiled by a clash of civilizations. Rather, people like me - Western-trained, English-speaking and constantly traveling - have begun to see the subtle differences that fracture our civilizations from within.

Whether we are conservative or liberal, many of us are appalled and angered by the stupidity and insensitivity of the Danish newspaper cartoons. But that doesn’t mean we’ve taken leave of our senses.

I may be a Muslim, but I can tell the difference between a newspaper and a people, a country and a principle.
Click to expand...

I wonder what they would do if they had something as sacrilegious as “The DaVinci Code”.
 
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ahimsaman72:
See post# 8 which explains.

Peace…
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This Peace, what does that mean to a Muslim? Is the word Love a part of this peace? Or, is it just toleration and submition. I mean there is peace in a supressed society but there is no harmony. IS Freedom or Liberty in the Muslim vocabulary?
 
Ahimsa said:
JAKARTA, Indonesia

Southeast Asian Muslims have not been roiled by a clash of civilizations. Rather, people like me - Western-trained, English-speaking and constantly traveling - have begun to see the subtle differences that fracture our civilizations from within.

Whether we are conservative or liberal, many of us are appalled and angered by the stupidity and insensitivity of the Danish newspaper cartoons. But that doesn’t mean we’ve taken leave of our senses.

I may be a Muslim, but I can tell the difference between a newspaper and a people, a country and a principle.
Click to expand...

U.S. Embassy in Indonesia Attacked

AKARTA, Indonesia Feb 19, 2006 (AP)— Hundreds of Muslims protesting caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad tried to storm the U.S. Embassy on Sunday, smashing the windows of a guard post but failing to push through the gates. Several people were injured.

Pakistani security forces, meanwhile, sealed off the capital of Islamabad to block a planned mass demonstration and fired tear gas and gunshots to chase off protesters. In Turkey, tens of thousands gathered in Istanbul chanting slogans against Denmark, Israel and the United States.

Protests over the cartoons, which first appeared in a Danish newspaper in September and have been republished in other European publications and elsewhere, have swept across the Muslim world, growing into mass outlets for rage against the West in general, and Israel and the United States in particular.

I believe this man’s sincerity, but the news reports show different than his opinion piece.
 
Totally disagree, either the person posted this thread is ignorant of what goes on in Indonesia, or he thinks we are all blind.
Indonesia has always been a hotbed of islam violence against Christians, recently the beheading of three young Christian girls, and in the Philippines also, where islamic radicals would go from door to door asking whether they where muslim or Christans, thus shooting the Cristians, killing 6.
I don’t know what to say about all this hate, and I believe it is justified by the koran, otherwise why so many incidences, over and over.
All I can do is pray.
 
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StMarkEofE:
This Peace, what does that mean to a Muslim? Is the word Love a part of this peace? Or, is it just toleration and submition. I mean there is peace in a supressed society but there is no harmony. IS Freedom or Liberty in the Muslim vocabulary?
Click to expand...
I’m not sure if you are referring to my ending of my post (Peace…) which I use for all my posts or if you are posing a rhetorical question. So, I’ll speak to both.

For me, peace has many characteristics. It can be individual or collective. A quote from one of my favorite teachers in the Buddhist tradition (Venerable Wu Ling) is: “Peace within creates peace without”. It can be used to express a compassionate sentiment. Jesus Christ said in the book of John, “Peace I leave with you, not as the world gives”. That’s what I mean when I use “peace”. I want others to be blessed with peace as I hope the same thing for myself. It is a peace that is beyond the ordinary. It is a peace sublime, unconditional and unchanging, out of this world.

Now, on to the Muslim. I don’t know what they think about peace. I’ve never sat down with one and talked about it. I know that all people inherently want peace. They want stability, no matter the race, culture or religion. “Muslim” fathers are probably pretty similar to me as a “Buddhist” father. We’re both fathers.

We want our children to be prosperous, live well and long and grow up in a stable society where they can both be a benefit and receive benefits. We often label people flippantly as if their whole existence surrounds one concept (that of being a Muslim, or an Arab, or a father, etc). That’s where “I” and “thou” come in. I’m over here and someone else is “over there”.

I imagine they view freedom and liberty differently than us here in America - primarily because of culture, not solely based on religious factors. Freedom to them I suppose is freedom within Allah’s plans, not within their own selfish plans. Liberty is the same I guess. I wouldn’t know for sure because again, I’ve not spoken with them on these issues.

From what I have seen written, submission to the merciful Allah and love for the ways of Allah and his messenger, the prophet Muhammed is key to their faith. I suppose everything else is peripherals. You would have to ask them - (if you really wanted a serious answer).

Peace and blessings to you…
 
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ahimsaman72:
I’m not sure if you are referring to my ending of my post (Peace…) which I use for all my posts or if you are posing a rhetorical question. So, I’ll speak to both.

For me, peace has many characteristics. It can be individual or collective. A quote from one of my favorite teachers in the Buddhist tradition (Venerable Wu Ling) is: “Peace within creates peace without”. It can be used to express a compassionate sentiment. Jesus Christ said in the book of John, “Peace I leave with you, not as the world gives”. That’s what I mean when I use “peace”. I want others to be blessed with peace as I hope the same thing for myself. It is a peace that is beyond the ordinary. It is a peace sublime, unconditional and unchanging, out of this world.

Now, on to the Muslim. I don’t know what they think about peace. I’ve never sat down with one and talked about it. I know that all people inherently want peace. They want stability, no matter the race, culture or religion. “Muslim” fathers are probably pretty similar to me as a “Buddhist” father. We’re both fathers.

We want our children to be prosperous, live well and long and grow up in a stable society where they can both be a benefit and receive benefits. We often label people flippantly as if their whole existence surrounds one concept (that of being a Muslim, or an Arab, or a father, etc). That’s where “I” and “thou” come in. I’m over here and someone else is “over there”.

I imagine they view freedom and liberty differently than us here in America - primarily because of culture, not solely based on religious factors. Freedom to them I suppose is freedom within Allah’s plans, not within their own selfish plans. Liberty is the same I guess. I wouldn’t know for sure because again, I’ve not spoken with them on these issues.

From what I have seen written, submission to the merciful Allah and love for the ways of Allah and his messenger, the prophet Muhammed is key to their faith. I suppose everything else is peripherals. You would have to ask them - (if you really wanted a serious answer).

Peace and blessings to you…
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Thank you for your timely response. Now, suppose this “peace” that the Muslims experience comes at the expense of the “peace” we here in the west enjoy as our constitution guarantees? This peace can become a spark and would detonate clashes between the two cultures. As we have seen in the European model, Muslims for the most part prefer to remain among themselves and view integration or assimilation as a wrong in that it dilutes their religious beliefs. And if this is so, I would doubt that there will be this peace we all seek in a democratic republic.
 
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Giovanni:
Totally disagree, either the person posted this thread is ignorant of what goes on in Indonesia, or he thinks we are all blind.
Indonesia has always been a hotbed of islam violence against Christians, recently the beheading of three young Christian girls, and in the Philippines also, where islamic radicals would go from door to door asking whether they where muslim or Christans, thus shooting the Cristians, killing 6.
I don’t know what to say about all this hate, and I believe it is justified by the koran, otherwise why so many incidences, over and over.
All I can do is pray.
Click to expand...
Violence against Christians is universal. Let me give some examples from missionaries I know and martyrs who have died.

They have died at the hands of:
  1. Communists
  2. Nazi’s
  3. radical Islamists
  4. jungle tribesmen
You name it, Christians have been killed by them (historically). This is nothing new. It’s wrong! but, it’s nothing new. These Islamists aren’t the inventors of persecution - they continue the vicious cycle however. I’ve personally read many, many Christian missionary stories. I would recommend people read:
  1. Brother Andrew (missionary to Eastern Europe and Russia) at: www.opendoorusa.org
  2. Hudson Taylor (missionary to China)
  3. Rev. Richard Wurmbrand (missionary to Europe) at: www.persecution.com
  4. ‘Jesus Freaks’ book. It recounts many stories from around the world about persecution, torture and killing from all cultures and timelines.
Read historical accounts of Christian persecution. You’ll gain a new perspective on the horrors of persecution. Torture by the Communists and Nazi’s is well documented. I have been horrified to read some of the accounts from the men above.

Peace…
 
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StMarkEofE:
Thank you for your timely response. Now, suppose this “peace” that the Muslims experience comes at the expense of the “peace” we here in the west enjoy as our constitution guarantees? This peace can become a spark and would detonate clashes between the two cultures. As we have seen in the European model, Muslims for the most part prefer to remain among themselves and view integration or assimilation as a wrong in that it dilutes their religious beliefs. And if this is so, I would doubt that there will be this peace we all seek in a democratic republic.
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Oh, you’re welcome. Although we disagree on some points, I value your opinions and enjoy your posts.

Peace cannot come at the expense of “others”. If my attainment of personal peace destroys the peace of others or society as a whole, then this cannot be acceptable. Everyone should be a part of the democratic process. Muslims must accept the democratic model and work within that.

If it is not acceptable to them, they have some choices. They either don’t participate at all, participate willingly or rebel against it. Hopefully, as more and more Muslims become part of this culture and United States, they will choose to be a part of the process in a peaceful, democratic way.

Frankly, I’m not sure if peace is possible. I simply want to try it and hope others will too. Violence breeds more violence and destruction. May we all choose the peaceful process. We have to be realistic and not foolish about possible outcomes, but we must always hold peace as the ideal.

Peace…
 
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ahimsaman72:
Oh, you’re welcome. Although we disagree on some points, I value your opinions and enjoy your posts.

Peace cannot come at the expense of “others”. If my attainment of personal peace destroys the peace of others or society as a whole, then this cannot be acceptable. Everyone should be a part of the democratic process. Muslims must accept the democratic model and work within that.

If it is not acceptable to them, they have some choices. They either don’t participate at all, participate willingly or rebel against it. Hopefully, as more and more Muslims become part of this culture and United States, they will choose to be a part of the process in a peaceful, democratic way.

Frankly, I’m not sure if peace is possible. I simply want to try it and hope others will too. Violence breeds more violence and destruction. May we all choose the peaceful process. We have to be realistic and not foolish about possible outcomes, but we must always hold peace as the ideal.

Peace…
Click to expand...
It looks like the Nigerian Muslim populations today were not to be up staged by their middle east brothers. Nigerian Muslims have burned or destroyed some 9 Christian churches in that country to demonstrate their anger at the cartoon of Muhammed bomb bursting turban. So, peace Muslim style is working in Nigeria.

I have no idea why the Nigerian mobs would want to destroy Christian churches because of what happened in a Denmark newspaper, but I guess these lunatics dont need a reason to do what they do.
 
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StMarkEofE:
It looks like the Nigerian Muslim populations today were not to be up staged by their middle east brothers. Nigerian Muslims have burned or destroyed some 9 Christian churches in that country to demonstrate their anger at the cartoon of Muhammed bomb bursting turban. So, peace Muslim style is working in Nigeria.

I have no idea why the Nigerian mobs would want to destroy Christian churches because of what happened in a Denmark newspaper, but I guess these lunatics dont need a reason to do what they do.
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Yes, it’s becoming dreadful everywhere. I don’t understand it either.

But, I was watching “60 Minutes” last night and they were talking about this issue around the world.

They interviewed the Danish newspaper, the Danish Prime Minister, a Danish Muslim Imam and other Muslims in Denmark.

What I found interesting was that the newspaper admitted that they printed these cartoons on purpose to show the minority Muslims what a democracy was like and that they had the freedom to publish it.

Then, the Danish Imam took the pictures and went to various Arab countries to incite the Muslims there. He admitted that.

So, you have a newspaper expressing their freedom. Then the Imam expressing his freedom. Both meant to antagonize the other. That was their purpose. The Imam said he felt like he could do nothing because his Muslim brothers and sisters are only about 2% of the Danish population. That’s hogwash of course. He wanted to garner sympathy and gain numbers.

One Muslim man (admittedly a moderate) is part of the Parliament of Denmark (first ever) remarked about the situation and was very concerned. He is the father of a little girl and wonders about her future. While these two parties are arguing over cartoons and inciting anger, this Muslim man shows his humanity. He wants the best things for himself and his daughter and wishes this controversy didn’t exist. We are all like this. I am - you probably are.

What I took away from the interviews was the fact that everyone is expressing their rights and freedoms to incite anger, but neither take responsibility for the content or repercussions. They freely admit their purposes were not honorable. Meanwhile the general population of people living day to day are doing their best to live day by day without instability and hate. When societies and individuals fail to care about the repercussions of their actions and thoughts, the world at large suffers.

Anger, anger, anger. This is what happens with anger.

Peace…
 
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