Why atheists arguments are invalid

[tomarin]

She does solid research into liberal propaganda and blows their ‘arguments’ into shreds. You’re not required to like her style or even ‘get’ her sense of humor. I was just wondering.

A lot of her “humor” has to do with wishing death and suffering upon her political adversaries. I don’t think that’s funny, and I’m not sure she’s joking.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

When I look at Christianty from the outside, I can see that many of you are very happy, and lead a full life. I also see many who suffer from being scared of the assumed consequences of their normal actions. It is a mixed bag. You can say that atheists have problems as well, and you would be right. But one thing is certain, when we worry about something, it is real. We are not scared of devils and demons. We are not scared of eternal damnation.

And you’re making the big assumption that those things are NOT real.

 

[Spock]

And you’re making the big assumption that those things are NOT real.

Right you are!

All you have to do is to prove me wrong is to demonstrate their existence. Some way that does include “faith” in their existence. If you can, I will stand corrected. Is that a tall order? Otherwise… it is just something you believe in, which is not convincing to skeptics. My point was that atheists participate in these conversations for a good reason… we want to free you from superstition, and drag you (maybe kicking and screaming) into a rational worldview. And we do all this from being concerned for your well-being, not from being jealous for you happiness - which also needs demonstration, in the light of the threads prevalent on the “Moral Theology” forum.

Go ahead… make my day.

 

[twb1621]

Right you are!

All you have to do is to prove me wrong is to demonstrate their existence. Some way that does include “faith” in their existence. If you can, I will stand corrected. Is that a tall order? Otherwise… it is just something you believe in, which is not convincing to skeptics. My point was that atheists participate in these conversations for a good reason… we want to free you from superstition, and drag you (maybe kicking and screaming) into a rational worldview. And we do all this from being concerned for your well-being, not from being jealous for you happiness - which also needs demonstration, in the light of the threads prevalent on the “Moral Theology” forum.

Go ahead… make my day.

That was very honestly offered and I appreciate that. I also understand where your disbeliefs come from. As a matter of fact, regardless of what is true or not true, what exists or does not exist, sometimes we must rely on faith. It could be in a loving relationship or public transportation. You brought a smile to my face with the concerns you expressed for us as believers in God and the eternal life. With all due respect intended, I was a professional investigator and researcher for 25 years but a lousy Christian and a Christian mainly because I was indoctrinated into the faith by my family. Once old enough I shed that stuff and went on with my adult life. I was very successful, with power, influence through connections, authority, and a major ego to go with it. I provided protection and justice to whoever asked, or thought I did. Out of a group of 100 professionals in my field I was rated in the top three. I took no grief from anyone if you know what I mean and those who knew me would not want to come in conflict with me. I had my new cars every 18 months and cruises or vacations when I wanted. A massive ego and no patience for games. Then I learned something that made me question everything in my adult life. It was proven to me I didn’t control anything beyond my free will to make choices in life. The results where not mine to control. I jumped on this like a pit bull on a pork chop, started the research, investigated it professionally, and used everything at my reach. I know through proving it to myself God was real and after turning myself over to Him in full trust and faith, He provided me the reassurances I needed as the weak person I was to find the answers from there on. The thing is, a person has to open the door to learning the truth, which is where the responsibility lays. You have to pursue the truth because you have your own free will and that is what God wants. Not for us to be forced or steered to love Him, but to learn and choose. It is there just as He is there.

You can be assured I Love God for the love He has given me, for accepting me back when I lived an arrogant life without faith and for all He has provided me in this life. If I reach eternal life through this mess, praise God, but I do not base my love of Him on that and I do not fear anything in regard to God other than falling into sin and hurting Him as a result. My life is better now than I could have ever imagined and I live it for Him.

 

[East_Anglican]

** There are countles efforts of atheists to ridicule Christianity.
Let’s as one of many, mention George H. Smith; by his followers called “A Contemporary Philosopher” who really wrote such baloney in his book: ATHEISM - THE CASE AGAINST GOD – like (shortened):
**

They also ridicule in a way that is angry and confrontational.

*(1.) Christianity must destroy reason before introduce faith
(2.) destroy happiness before introduce salvation
(3.) is profoundly anti-pleasure especially in the area of sex
(4.) Sexual pleasure is the most intense form of pleasure
(5.) To deny oneself pleasure, or to convince oneself that pleasure is evil…
*

1, Many Athiests avoid reason when debating the subject and use ptolmic dogmatism instead.
2, Many Athiests come across as so angry and express such bitterness towards Christians it appears that to be an Athierst one has to be miserable.
3, Christians know the God who invented sex while many Atheists persue pleasure in speaking against Christianity
4, Sexual pleasure is the closest physical act to something spiritual but knowing Jesus is the real tthing.
5, Many Athiests spend vast quantities of energy trying to convince everyone that Christianity is evil. They use ridicule, dogmatism and sarcasm in their ptolmioc rants against us. They come across so miserable that you would think they thought pleasure was evil.

(1.)
Church keeps pointing out and not only St. Paul said, that it takes a lot of reason to understand believe (the reason, atheists don’t have). Jesus said in Matthew 13,11: "…knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been granted to you,
BUT TO THEM IT HAS NOT BEEN GRANTED.”
(2.)
It’s terribly laughable to presume; Christians wouldn’t have happiness. One thing for sure: A single Christian has a lot more of PURE happiness then all atheists together even ever could have. Would Jesus have made water into wine on the wedding of Kana if He and his people had no happiness?!
(3.)
I as many, after having suffered so much (murdering of my son etc) still have pleasure, for we have God with us. And no atheist can imagine, how pleasurable is it, that we Christians are NEVER alone! Isn’t it remarkable, that for instance in Germany, most happy and funny people live in the Catholic centers along the Cologne-Mainz Rhine-line with it’s great carnivals?
(4.)
Sex? :lol: never Christians where against sex. But loving sex, not dirty sex. Dirty sex ruins all and brings a lot of sorrow and misery over the human race - Aids for one thing, masses of divorces and more. Obliviously to atheists sex is all they have if they call sex “the most intense form of pleasure”. Poor things! To Christians other things count a lot more, like having a loving partner, dear children and grandchildren, loving families, and most pleasurable of all: HAVING GOD! and never to be alone.
(5)
ALL (!) Saints praised God for the pleasures they have in “knowing” and “having” God, the beauty of nature, the overjoyed knowledge of being eternally with God after they leave here.
Let atheists go to a Monastery to see the joy they have, if they don’t believe us. Did they ever see the joy and pleasure and happiness in the eyes of Mother Teresa?!

Amen.

 

[Spock]

That was very honestly offered and I appreciate that. I also understand where your disbeliefs come from. As a matter of fact, regardless of what is true or not true, what exists or does not exist, sometimes we must rely on faith. It could be in a loving relationship or public transportation. You brought a smile to my face with the concerns you expressed for us as believers in God and the eternal life. With all due respect intended, I was a professional investigator and researcher for 25 years but a lousy Christian and a Christian mainly because I was indoctrinated into the faith by my family. Once old enough I shed that stuff and went on with my adult life. I was very successful, with power, influence through connections, authority, and a major ego to go with it. I provided protection and justice to whoever asked, or thought I did. Out of a group of 100 professionals in my field I was rated in the top three. I took no grief from anyone if you know what I mean and those who knew me would not want to come in conflict with me. I had my new cars every 18 months and cruises or vacations when I wanted. A massive ego and no patience for games. Then I learned something that made me question everything in my adult life. It was proven to me I didn’t control anything beyond my free will to make choices in life. The results where not mine to control. I jumped on this like a pit bull on a pork chop, started the research, investigated it professionally, and used everything at my reach. I know through proving it to myself God was real and after turning myself over to Him in full trust and faith, He provided me the reassurances I needed as the weak person I was to find the answers from there on. The thing is, a person has to open the door to learning the truth, which is where the responsibility lays. You have to pursue the truth because you have your own free will and that is what God wants. Not for us to be forced or steered to love Him, but to learn and choose. It is there just as He is there.

You can be assured I Love God for the love He has given me, for accepting me back when I lived an arrogant life without faith and for all He has provided me in this life. If I reach eternal life through this mess, praise God, but I do not base my love of Him on that and I do not fear anything in regard to God other than falling into sin and hurting Him as a result. My life is better now than I could have ever imagined and I live it for Him.

Very well said. But how do I apply your method? What can I do?

Contrary to you, I actually lost my faith because I could not make sense of the attributes of God. They are exactly like a square circle (which is the “perfect” geometric shape)?

As I said before, the “omnimax” attributes make no sense. Existence outside space and time, which is both “active” and unchanging is not a mystery, it is a contradiction. An unchanging being is unable to “do” anything. To call it “eternally willed” is just doubletalk - without meaning. Justice and mercy cannot be achieved at the same time and in the same case. They contradict each other. The state of affairs we can all observe flatly contradicts to the concept of a loving, benevolent God. It cannot be explained, only rationalized away. Appeal to “free will” does not help there.

As you siad, there are events that lie beyond our control. We cannot fly by flapping our arms because that is physically impossible. Why is that a problem? I have no idea what those events might have been, that started you to investigate God, and what were the results of your investigation. I believe that they would be outside the scope of this thread. If you have time and inclination it would be interesting if you would share them. However, for the next month, (maybe longer) I will not be in the positon to log on the Internet. I will check back today and tomorrow before we leave.

 

[Spock]

The thing is, a person has to open the door to learning the truth, which is where the responsibility lays. You have to pursue the truth because you have your own free will and that is what God wants. Not for us to be forced or steered to love Him, but to learn and choose. It is there just as He is there.

This needs more reply. I am willing to find the truth, whatever that may be. But one thing is impossible: giving a-priori credence to the claim.

As a professional investigator you must start with an open mind. I do, too.

An example: Suppose that someone comes to you and reports a murder. Later you meet the allegedly murdered person and see that he is alive and well. Now, are you willing to entertain doubt in your senses, and assume that the murder actually took place, and invest time and effort, just because someone else said that a murder took place? Wouldn’t you need at least some evidence that the reported event actually happened? Do you apply your faith in the other person’s reliability? Is that a good enough reason to start a serious investigation? Because that is what you propose to me.

This is my position here. I am willing to seek and find. But “your” word (you in the general sense, including the Bible, the RCC, the pope, the Cathecism and the Magistretium) is not sufficient.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

As a professional investigator you must start with an open mind. I do, too

Do you really?
A professional investigator definitely starts with an open mind, but he has very firm knowledge of what is right and wrong. Else he couldn’t evaluate what he actually should prosecute in investigating.

**

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Right you are!

All you have to do is to prove me wrong is to demonstrate their existence. Some way that does include “faith” in their existence. If you can, I will stand corrected. Is that a tall order? Otherwise… it is just something you believe in, which is not convincing to skeptics. My point was that atheists participate in these conversations for a good reason… we want to free you from superstition, and drag you (maybe kicking and screaming) into a rational worldview. And we do all this from being concerned for your well-being, not from being jealous for you happiness - which also needs demonstration, in the light of the threads prevalent on the “Moral Theology” forum.

Go ahead… make my day.

A Vulcan would not cry out so.

One of the problems with atheists is that they claim to want ‘proof’—yet reject the proof of God’s handiwork that is already abundantly in the world—each time you open your eyes.

And they attempt to tar others with their own brush, claiming Einstein and other scientists (along with our Founding Fathers) were atheists when these claims are patently false.

Good science is no longer being done because most of the current batch is not out to discover the expressions of God, but to prop up their own weak, pagan beliefs.

 

[Spock]

One of the problems with atheists is that they claim to want ‘proof’—yet reject the proof of God’s handiwork that is already abundantly in the world—each time you open your eyes.

Really? Where is the “handiwork” of a loving and caring God in leprosy? In muscular dystrophy? In Alzheimer’s disease? In genetic disorders, causing some chilred die of old age when they are barely 10 years old? In fildwires, killing humans and animals alike in horrible agony? In allowing diseases, murders, genocides, unspeakable atrocities? Are these what you are referring to? Bah, humbug!

 

[Spock]

A professional investigator definitely starts with an open mind, but he has very firm knowledge of what is right and wrong. Else he couldn’t evaluate what he actually should prosecute in investigating.

An investigator does not prosecute, he only cares about facts! The prosecutor does not care about right and wrong, he cares about what is legal and what is not. Apart from that your post is “perfect”.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Really? Where is the “handiwork” of a loving and caring God in leprosy? In muscular dystrophy? In Alzheimer’s disease? In genetic disorders, causing some chilred die of old age when they are barely 10 years old? In fildwires, killing humans and animals alike in horrible agony? In allowing diseases, murders, genocides, unspeakable atrocities? Are these what you are referring to? Bah, humbug!

I forgot the atheist’s other fatal flaw: the utter inability to see the Cross, and therefore meaning, in suffering.

 

[Spock]

I forgot the atheist’s other fatal flaw: the utter inability to see the Cross, and therefore meaning, in suffering.

If you wish to suffer, that is your own business. However, I see the hypocrisy behind such statements, since I would bet dollars to cents that you go to a doctor to relieve your suffering, if there is a need. You do not willingly suffer a toothache, either, do you? So as long as you only talk the talk, but refuse to walk the walk, do not speak of the “fatal flaw” in atheists. It does not help your case. Especially since you are only willing to endure other people’s suffering. Very hypocritical.