Why Baptism?

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Please explain to me why the passage teaches that Baptism is a cause of salvation. I do not see that in context, but maybe you can show me?
Everything after verse 3 is referring to the effects of Baptism, which is where and when we are united with Christ’s death, as he says, “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?”

Also, there is no paragraph break between verse 4 and verse 5.
 
Socrates;
… By the grace of God, we are saved by Christ, through our obedience to Christ - which means that we need to find out what Christ commands us to do. …
Please, JM, call me Soc or S4J. 🙂

I understand grace and obedience this way:

Grace = God’s undeserved and unearned love given as a free gift.

Obedience = Saying, thinking and doing what you believe God wants you to do out of love for the love He has given you.

My question, which i hope you will try to answer:

Do we receive God’s grace because we obey Him or do we obey Him because He has given us His grace?
 
Do we receive God’s grace because we obey Him or do we obey Him because He has given us His grace?
Grace is a life-long conversation that we have with God; not a one-time event.

God initiates the conversation by giving us the grace to seek Him out sincerely.

If we do, in fact, seek Him out, then He will follow this by giving us the grace to find Him.

If we accept the grace to find Him, He then gives us the grace to be converted.

If we are then converted, He then gives us the grace to be obedient to His commandments.

If we are obedient to His commandments, we will receive more graces, so as to obey Him more and more, until finally, He gives us the grace of Sainthood, and if we accept the gift of Sainthood, then He will give us the grace to be able to go to Heaven.

If we arrive in Heaven, then He will give us the grace we need to remain there forever.
 
Really, is this enough to keep you out of the Church? In practical terms, why does it matter if the sequence is A,B or B,A, if both A and B happen? Why is it so disturbing if God chooses to impart sanctifying grace in the actual act of baptism? …
What a great question, VM!

What i take you to say is “Why does it matter if salvation causes baptism or baptism causes salvation?” If I’m understanding your questions correctly the answer is this:

If salvation = receiving eternal life as an absolutely free gift.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

and a person does the act of baptism after he has already received this gift to show his intention to live his life for his blessed Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in gratitude for this gift:

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
(Romans 6:4)

Then baptism, in this case, is not a cause of receiving eternal life. For how can a cause come after an effect?
 
Does not eternal life begin at the moment you or i receive this gift from God?
 
Grace is a life-long conversation that we have with God; not a one-time event. …
Grace = Greek word Charis (from chairo). A favor done without expectation of return; absolute freeness of the loving-kindness of God to men, finding its only motive in the bounty and freeheartedness of the Giver; unearned or unmerited favor.

Do you speak Greek, JM?

That is the meaning of the word as used in Ephesians 2:8-10 (and elsewhere in the New Testament):

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
 
Does not eternal life begin at the moment you or i receive this gift from God?
The journey begins there. But if we don’t embark on the journey, or take each step of that journey, then we will not arrive at the destination.
 
… Question for Soc: Why do you believe the Bible to teach that baptism is only a result of salvation and not possibly a movement of God’s santifiying grace on the journey towards the salvation of a particular soul?
Good question, JF! I believe my replies to other questions have the answer. Please tell me, if you want, why do you believe the Sacrament of Baptism is a cause of eternal life?
 
Grace = Greek word Charis (from chairo). A favor done without expectation of return; absolute freeness of the loving-kindness of God to men, finding its only motive in the bounty and freeheartedness of the Giver; unearned or unmerited favor.
How does this contradict anything that I’ve said? God gives us many unmerited favours.
That is the meaning of the word as used in Ephesians 2:8-10 (and elsewhere in the New Testament):

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
If those who are saved into the Church don’t do the good works that God has ordained for them, will they remain in the Church?

And if they don’t remain in the Church, will they go to Heaven?

St. Peter, our first Pope, once likened the Church to Noah’s Ark. He said that we are saved by Baptism (which is how we get into the Church) in the same way that the 8 were saved in the Ark.

Obviously, the 8 had faith in God, or else they would not have gotten into the Ark.

I am sure there must have been others who also believed that God would save them if they got on to the Ark, but for whatever reason, they didn’t actually get on to the Ark. These people, even though they believed the right thing, didn’t act upon their belief, and were not saved.
 
The journey begins there. But if we don’t embark on the journey, or take each step of that journey, then we will not arrive at the destination.
True, and a good point. I do not believe God would give eternal life to someone who does not repent (or make a u-turn in the road of his life).

You have not answered my question, however. I’ll try to rephrase it. Lets say i was never baptized. Lets say i receive God’s gift of eternal life and then i decide, after being overwhelmed by his gracious love shown to me, that i should get baptized. Notice that i get baptized after i already have the gift. How, then, could that gift cause eternal life since it is impossible for a cause to come after an effect?
 
True, and a good point. I do not believe God would give eternal life to someone who does not repent (or make a u-turn in the road of his life).

You have not answered my question, however. I’ll try to rephrase it. Lets say i was never baptized. Lets say i receive God’s gift of eternal life and then i decide, after being overwhelmed by his gracious love shown to me, that i then decide to get baptized after i already have the gift.
You don’t have the gift yet, if you have not yet been baptized.
How, then, could that gift cause eternal life since it is impossible for a cause to come after an effect?
Okay. To use an analogy:

What has happened is, you have gotten a notice in the mail that there is a gift waiting for you at the Post Office. (The gift of Eternal Life.)

Notice of the gift is not the gift itself, though.

You still have to go to the Post Office, so to speak (that is, go to the Church) and claim the gift (be Baptized).

The initial movement of grace (the notice that there is a gift waiting for you) is very important, of course. But it is only the first step. There are still these other steps that need to be taken, as well.
 
How does this contradict anything that I’ve said? God gives us many unmerited favours. …
You said, “Grace is a life-long conversation that we have with God; not a one-time event.”

I was pointing out that Paul has an idea of the meaning of the word grace. I said: “Grace = Greek word Charis (from chairo). A favor done without expectation of return; absolute freeness of the loving-kindness of God to men, finding its only motive in the bounty and freeheartedness of the Giver; unearned or unmerited favor.”

I was giving a definition of the grace of God. You were explaining the result of that grace, i think. The definition of something is not the same as its effect.
 
You said, “Grace is a life-long conversation that we have with God; not a one-time event.”

I was pointing out that Paul has an idea of the meaning of the word grace. I said: “Grace = Greek word Charis (from chairo). A favor done without expectation of return; absolute freeness of the loving-kindness of God to men, finding its only motive in the bounty and freeheartedness of the Giver; unearned or unmerited favor.”
Yes, I agree with that definition.
I was giving a definition of the grace of God. You were explaining the result of that grace, i think. The definition of something is not the same as its effect.
I think that I have no idea what you are driving at.

We receive God’s unmerited favour every time we make use of the Sacraments, and every time we are obedient to God’s commandments. It is not a once-in-a-lifetime event, but an ongoing way of life.
 
You don’t have the gift yet, if you have not yet been baptized. …
It seems, then, we disagree. How should you and i resolve this disagreement.

I think that when two people disagree the best course of action is to find a mediator of whom they both trust. I have learned to trust every author of the Bible. I would be willing to let any one of them settle the dispute between us. You may choose the author and the passage of Scripture, if you like.
 
Yes, I agree with that definition.

I think that I have no idea what you are driving at.

We receive God’s unmerited favour every time we make use of the Sacraments, and every time we are obedient to God’s commandments. It is not a once-in-a-lifetime event, but an ongoing way of life.
I think i see the source of your confusion. Let me try to explain in the next reply.
 
On second thought, i do not want to get off the topic. Please, i would very much like to see a passage showing that baptism is a cause (though not the cause, of course) of salvation or eternal life. I will carefully consider the passage.
 
It seems, then, we disagree. How should you and i resolve this disagreement.

I think that when two people disagree the best course of action is to find a mediator of whom they both trust. I have learned to trust every author of the Bible. I would be willing to let any one of them settle the dispute between us. You may choose the author and the passage of Scripture, if you like.
I will choose Jesus Himself. (I am assuming that we both believe that the Gospels record His sayings and discourses accurately, and that neither of us thinks that anything was added to Jesus’ sayings by the Church, in order to justify later Church practices.)

I’m also assuming we both believe that Jesus sets the example for us, of how to live a Christian life.

What did Jesus do?

With regard to Baptism, the example set by Jesus is that He Himself was baptized. When asked the reason (since He is without sin, and had no need of Baptism) He replied, “Let it be so now, for so it becomes us to fulfill all justice.” (Matthew 3:15)

The records of this are found in Matthew 3:13-17, Mark 1:9-11, Luke 3:21-22, and John 1:19-34. The commentator of my Bible footnotes mentions here that this occurred in fulfillment of the Messianic prophesies that we find in Isaiah 40. It seems significant that Christ’s Baptism by John is what marks or signifies the making straight of the way of the Lord.
**
Who did Jesus say will be saved?**

In Matthew 7:21 (which is part of the Sermon on the Mount) Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in Heaven shall enter the kingdom of Heaven.”

It seems clear from this that our obedience is not a side-effect of our salvation, but an essential element of it.

Is salvation a one-time event?

Just before the passage I just quoted, there is another very interesting passage about salvation, from Matthew 7:13-20. Here, He says, “How narrow is the gate, and close is the way that leads to life! And few there are who find it.” (v.14)

There is both a gate, and a way. There is both an initial event of prevenient grace, and the necessity on our part to continue, step by step, in following God’s way.

Do good works have an effect on our salvation?

Read Matthew 25:31-46. Notice that although all of the people being judged had believed in Jesus during their lives, only some of them had actually done any good works. It was only the ones who had actually done the good works who were admitted into Heaven. The rest of them, despite the fact that they certainly had believed in Jesus, went to Hell.

Notice also just before this passage, where we see two parables: the parable of the ten virgins, and the parable of the talents.

In each case, the bridesmaids and the servants were all given gifts. But some of them squandered or wasted the gifts, and were cast out, while others made good use of the gifts, and were admitted into glory. This shows us that what we do with God’s free gift of grace will have an effect on whether or not we will ultimately be saved.

EDIT: I almost forgot the most important part - 😊

When did Jesus command us to be baptized?

In Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commanded the Apostles to baptize us, and through the Apostles, their successors. In commanding the Apostles and their successors to baptize us, it seems clear that He expects us to submit to their authority, and to be baptized by them.
 
I will choose Jesus Himself. (I am assuming that we both believe that the Gospels record His sayings and discourses accurately, and that neither of us thinks that anything was added to Jesus’ sayings by the Church, in order to justify later Church practices.) …
Absolutely. More than 24,000 ancient extant copies of the New Testament means the scholars can, with confidence, say that 99% of our New Testament contains the actual words the authors wrote.
 
… With regard to Baptism, the example set by Jesus is that He Himself was baptized. When asked the reason (since He is without sin, and had no need of Baptism) He replied, “Let it be so now, for so it becomes us to fulfill all justice.” (Matthew 3:15)
…
Yes, i have often wondered why baptism was necessary for the only sinless man.
 
… In Matthew 7:21 (which is part of the Sermon on the Mount) Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in Heaven shall enter the kingdom of Heaven.”

It seems clear from this that our obedience is not a side-effect of our salvation, but an essential element of it.
…
Well, this is something i am seriously considering.
 
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