Why Baptism?

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jmcrae said:
… Just before the passage I just quoted, there is another very interesting passage about salvation, from Matthew 7:13-20. Here, He says, “How narrow is the gate, and close is the way that leads to life! And few there are who find it.” (v.14)

There is both a gate, and a way. There is both an initial event of prevenient grace, and the necessity on our part to continue, step by step, in following God’s way.
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Yes, it is true that everyone who sincerely repents and puts his trust in Christ will try to live for him. Christians are not sinless, but they do sin less and less.
 
jmcrae said:
…Read Matthew 25:31-46. Notice that although all of the people being judged had believed in Jesus during their lives, only some of them had actually done any good works. It was only the ones who had actually done the good works who were admitted into Heaven. The rest of them, despite the fact that they certainly had believed in Jesus, went to Hell.
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Yes, and that is the earliest passage of the Bible i remember. It was quoted in a film i saw at a Catholic church.
 
jmcrae said:
… In Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commanded the Apostles to baptize us, and through the Apostles, their successors. In commanding the Apostles and their successors to baptize us, it seems clear that He expects us to submit to their authority, and to be baptized by them.
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True, every Christian should be baptized.
 
So, are you saying, then, that eternal life is not a present possession of each true follower of Christ? Are you saying it is only after death that someone receives this gift?
 
It’s not a question meant to trip you up. It is one i, honestly, have never considered before.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
So, are you saying, then, that eternal life is not a present possession of each true follower of Christ? Are you saying it is only after death that someone receives this gift?
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We all have the gift of eternal life, but we also have the ability to squander it in reckless living - and the choice to come to our senses and return home to the Father afterwards, or not - that’s up to us. (Luke 15:11-31)

Having found the gate (received prevenient grace) we have to go through it (be baptized). Having gone through the gate (that is, having been baptized) we need to set one foot ahead of the other, and follow the Way, until we finally arrive at the gates of Heaven.

In one sense, yes, we already have the gift. But in another sense, we are still in the process of obtaining it. As long as we have the power to commit sin, we have the ability to lose the gift. But the good news is that as long as we have the power to repent of our sins, we have the ability to regain it again.
 
Yes, but here is what i’m saying. Whenever i’ve considered eternal life, i’ve thought of it as a present possession. For example, i’ve often quoted this passage to others:

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

– Jesus (John 5:24)

My understanding of the passage was the eternal life was given at the moment a person believed. Since eternal life is that which has no end, then if a person were to lose it, it could not be eternal, which is impossible.

However, i think you are raising a different possibility that i have never considered, which is this: The person has eternal life, but not within him. It is a gift he will only receive upon entering heaven.

Is this what you are saying?
 
It’s sinful, i know, but i’m IMPATIENTLY awaiting your reply!

😉
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Yes, but here is what i’m saying. Whenever i’ve considered eternal life, i’ve thought of it as a present possession. For example, i’ve often quoted this passage to others:

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”
– Jesus (John 5:24)

My understanding of the passage was the eternal life was given at the moment a person believed. Since eternal life is that which has no end, then if a person were to lose it, it could not be eternal, which is impossible.

However, i think you are raising a different possibility that i have never considered, which is this: The person has eternal life, but not within him. It is a gift he will only receive upon entering heaven.

Is this what you are saying?
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Yes. Kind of. It’s complicated.

If you live to be 90, you have that many steps before you get to go to Heaven. But if you die right now, and you are in the state of grace with no sins on your soul, then you will go directly to Heaven right now.

But we do have to die first before we become citizens of Heaven - whether now, or at age 90 - and we have to die in the state of grace. (Which means that we have to get into the state of grace by being baptized, and then we have to stay in it, and we have to follow the Way, so that we don’t fall out of the state of grace before we die.)
 
jmcrae said:
Yes. Kind of. It’s complicated.

If you live to be 90, you have that many steps before you get to go to Heaven. But if you die right now, and you are in the state of grace with no sins on your soul, then you will go directly to Heaven right now.

But we do have to die first before we become citizens of Heaven - whether now, or at age 90 - and we have to die in the state of grace. (Which means that we have to get into the state of grace by being baptized, and then we have to stay in it, and we have to follow the Way, so that we don’t fall out of the state of grace before we die.)
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I really want to thank you, JM. I’m the kind of person who goes wherever the truth leads him and i never imagined it would lead me to the Catholic church, until today. You have given me a lot to think about.

There were other things happening behind the scenes, as well. I was about to give you a passage of Scripture that i had used so many times before and the Holy Spirit showed me the passage actually proved your point of view.

At least, i think that is what is going on. Either that or i’m under some great deception. I’m going to sleep on it and be back with more questions, i’m sure.

Smile, you may have just created a closet Catholic.

🙂
 
GandalfTheWhite said:
Can I ask you to read this article portraying an imaginary conversation?

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0304sbs.asp
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Hey, White Wizard!

Was it you who showed me a quote not long ago in another discussion thread by St. Augustine on the topic of baptism? If it was, will you please give that quote to me once more.

Also, i’m interested in quotes by the earlier church fathers from the 1st and 2nd century AD (for example Polycarp, Ignatius and Clement of Rome) on the topic of baptism. If you have the time, i will greatly appreciate it.

🙂
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Also, i’m interested in quotes by the earlier church fathers from the 1st and 2nd century AD (for example Polycarp
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, Ignatius and Clement of Rome) on the topic of baptism. If you have the time, i will greatly appreciate it.

🙂The Martyrdom of Polycarp. Notice here that he says that he has been a Christian for 86 years…and he is 86 years old at the time. What’s that tell you?
 
Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal… This work is variously called grace, and illumination, and perfection, and washing. Washing, by which we cleanse away our sins; grace, by which the penalties accruing to transgressions are remitted; and illumination, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is, by which we see God clearly.
St Clement of Alexandria (150-200 AD)
 
Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply.
St Ignatius of Antioch (110 AD),Letter to Polycarp 6
 
This class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole faith.
**St Irenaeus, (120-205 AD ) Against Heresies, bk. 1, chap. 21, sec. 1, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1, pg. 345. **
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
I really want to thank you, JM. I’m the kind of person who goes wherever the truth leads him and i never imagined it would lead me to the Catholic church, until today. You have given me a lot to think about.

There were other things happening behind the scenes, as well. I was about to give you a passage of Scripture that i had used so many times before and the Holy Spirit showed me the passage actually proved your point of view.
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I’m not surprised. After all, the Bible is the Catholic Church’s book. 😉
At least, i think that is what is going on. Either that or i’m under some great deception. I’m going to sleep on it and be back with more questions, i’m sure.
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Take all the time you need. Even Mother Mary pondered in her heart, what manner of things these might be.
Smile, you may have just created a closet Catholic.

🙂
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This is God’s doing - not mine. I just happened to be here. But, yes - I look just like this guy right now. >> :extrahappy:
 
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