Why be an Eastern Catholic and not an Orthodox Christian?

[gurneyhalleck1]

I agree. I’m not even sure I’ll end up there. In some ways I wish Orthodoxy were more centralized and more “together.” But I appreciate and understand the eucharistic ecclesiology approach just as in many ways I can appreciate the Catholic universal ecclesiology and its desire to make morality more defined and to help the human race understand the nature of evil. The Catholic Church continues to be the leading voice in the pro-life, anti-war, anti-culture of evil we live around. They also seek to move us toward objective morality, something this society abandoned years ago. I do appreciate that and I don’t see the Orthodox having a loud and global visible voice akin to the Pope. That is my concern. Accessibility is another concern I think. And I’m still not at the point where I could imagine myself a chrismated Orthodox Eastern guy. Even if I don’t end up Orthodox, I appreciate them more and have a lot of respect for the integrity of the liturgy they’ve kept through thick, thin, hell, and beyond aka Islam and Communism…

The novus ordo Mass is a mess in my opinon and I think Vatican II creates an either-or scenario that Catholicism shouldn’t have as options----either the majestic old worship or the hip, new, now, “fun” Mass. Personally that is a choice nobody should have IMO.

We are on similar paths.

I have changed my soteriology through reading Orthodox authors. “God became man so that man could become God”, as St. Athanasius wrote. Salvation is an eternal journey of becoming Christlike which depends relatively little on intellect and dogma.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

There were no problems like this before the sweeping changes.

This is a misconception.

Vatican II was called for, and the changes it made through its documents, were all in response to problems that the Church saw at the time.

 

[Alexius]

Why not leave the Catholic Church? It is my home. It is the only gift my father gave me other than giving me life. It is hard to leave behind something like that without good reason and I haven’t found any in all my years of in-depth study into Orthodoxy. I was not satified that with many of the arguments and the Orthodox catechisms from the past reflect what I currently believe, but not what many Orthodox actually teach. I don’t believe that some of the issues that come up are really even issues at all. Now don’t get me wrong, I am not saying “reunion now,” but personally I can’t make out a better argument from the other side than what I see on this side. Other issues, such as divorce, bother me, but I am not convinced it is too different. Also, I agree about the Novus Ordo, but church liturgy has changed many times in the past and there does not seem to have been simply one universal liturgy at the beginning (I know many argue otherwise). Issues such as the Immaculate Conception, Original Sin, Purgatory and Indulgences were not unknown to the east early on; however, they received different emphasis and treatment by east and west over time. Immaculate Conception, Original Sin and Purgatory can all be seen within the writings of Orthodox fathers and statements/catechisms from the Orthodox bishops. Indulgences were practiced in Greece in the 16th century. Yes, I know all of this can be and has been argued against many times on this forum, but it is like running around in circles sometimes.

I would not have minded coming to different conclusing (such as conversion), but this is what I have come to over time.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Why not leave the Catholic Church? It is my home. It is the only gift my father gave me other than giving me life. It is hard to leave behind something like that without good reason and I haven’t found any in all my years of in-depth study into Orthodoxy. I was not satified that with many of the arguments and the Orthodox catechisms from the past reflect what I currently believe, but not what many Orthodox actually teach. I don’t believe that some of the issues that come up are really even issues at all. Now don’t get me wrong, I am not saying “reunion now,” but personally I can’t make out a better argument from the other side than what I see on this side. Other issues, such as divorce, bother me, but I am not convinced it is too different. Also, I agree about the Novus Ordo, but church liturgy has changed many times in the past and there does not seem to have been simply one universal liturgy at the beginning (I know many argue otherwise). Issues such as the Immaculate Conception, Original Sin, Purgatory and Indulgences were not unknown to the east early on; however, they received different emphasis and treatment by east and west over time. Immaculate Conception, Original Sin and Purgatory can all be seen within the writings of Orthodox fathers and statements/catechisms from the Orthodox bishops. Indulgences were practiced in Greece in the 16th century. Yes, I know all of this can be and has been argued against many times on this forum, but it is like running around in circles sometimes.

I would not have minded coming to different conclusing (such as conversion), but this is what I have come to over time.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Well said Alexius!

I have to say, after skimming through this thread it appears that the idea of the Roman Catholic Church being the Catholic Church and us Eastern Catholics being something less seems to be alive and well today.

 

[TrueLight]

Well said Alexius!

I have to say, after skimming through this thread it appears that the idea of the Roman Catholic Church being the Catholic Church and us Eastern Catholics being something less seems to be alive and well today.

I wouldn;'t say less, but definitely different.

But why is that? I don’t claim to know a lot about this, but it seems to me that a lot of Eastern Catholics identify more with Orthodoxy. Am I wrong?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I wouldn;'t say less, but definitely different.

But why is that? I don’t claim to know a lot about this, but it seems to me that a lot of Eastern Catholics identify more with Orthodoxy than the Roman Catholic Church. Am I wrong?

I wouldn’t say “a lot” but I would say “some”. Those who insist on using the term “Orthodox in Communion with Rome”. As you can see I do not subscribe to that term.

But for people to say one should be (or they would chose this) Catholic or Orthodox means that Eastern Catholics are somehow less than “Catholic”, it is really an insult.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

The Catholic Church continues to be the leading voice in the pro-life, anti-war, anti-culture of evil we live around. They also seek to move us toward objective morality, something this society abandoned years ago. I do appreciate that and I don’t see the Orthodox having a loud and global visible voice akin to the Pope. That is my concern. Accessibility is another concern I think. And I’m still not at the point where I could imagine myself a chrismated Orthodox Eastern guy.

One doesn’t have to be under the Bishop of Rome or accept Papal supremacy to appreciate the role he plays in standing up for life, families, etc.

There will always be that role in the Church for the Bishop of Rome (and perhaps other prominent bishops). I think Pope Benedict has been a outstanding pope and wish him many years.

As for accessibility, you could always help start a mission. Seriously. I have a good friend who is a Serbian Orthodox priest in Spain who has started maybe 10 churches.

 

[dzheremi]

I wouldn’t say “a lot” but I would say “some”. Those who insist on using the term “Orthodox in Communion with Rome”. As you can see I do not subscribe to that term.

But for people to say one should be (or they would chose this) Catholic or Orthodox means that Eastern Catholics are somehow less than “Catholic”, it is really an insult.

I would not say that you are somehow less Catholic, but rather not Orthodox, so the choice remains the same. Everyone in communion with Rome is considered “Catholic” by the definition that revolves around Rome (since of course the Orthodox churches also consider themselves “catholic”, but not by the same criteria that you probably use), and that is why, unfortunately, the Eastern and Oriental Catholics do seem to sometimes get the short end of the stick in these discussions. When we talk about the “Catholic Church” here on CAF, no matter our particular church, we are not generally speaking as though the defining characteristic of that church is the Latins’ relation to Bkerke or Lviv or what have you. It’s the other way around. Given that, it’s kind of hard to make things NOT about Rome, as the nature of the ecclesiology of the Roman communion demands that worldview, whether or not you personally subscribe to it (in deference to the “Orthodox in Union with Rome” crowd).

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I would not say that you are somehow less Catholic, but rather not Orthodox, so the choice remains the same.

Right, we are Catholics, Eastern Catholics, not Orthodox.

I never claimed that we were Orthodox, nor do I buy the “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” title either, yet we are not Roman Catholics.

 

[TrueLight]

I never claimed that we were Orthodox, nor do I buy the “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” title either, yet we are not Roman Catholics.

That is an interesting viewpoint. Maybe that should be the subject of a new thread. It would be interesting to see how many EC’s consider themselves Eastern Catholics as opposed to Orthodox in communion with Rome.

But I’m not starting that thread.

 

[dzheremi]

ByzCath,

I’m not saying you are. I’m just trying to explain why talks about Catholicism tend to center around the Latin/Roman church, even when discussing Eastern Catholicism. It’s not because you’re somehow “less Catholic” with regard to your communion with Rome and the acceptability of your beliefs within Catholicism as a whole, but because Catholicism as a communion centers around Rome, not your churches.

 

[Joel_PF]

I’m a Roman Catholic but with much admiration and respect for Eastern theology and spiritual life.

However, from my point of view, it seems that the Orthodox have some shortcomings (besides the doctrinal questions and the petrine primacy issue).

I saw a member here saying how there “just weren’t” heresies in Orthodox Christendom, as if that underscored their more stable, and presumably apostolic, worship and thought. However, that seems to me a huge historical naivety.

First because there HAVE been many heresies in the Orthodox world. Someone mentioned the Old Believers (and what kind of mentality is it necessary to go into schism because of a change in how many fingers are used to cross oneself and other similar matters?); pre-schism Iconoclasm (which might well be behind the mystical theories surrounding Icons that pits them as something above “mere” sacred art) there were also the Strigolniki in the 14th century, the judaizers in the 15th (who got even some bishops on their side), the doukhobors (from 17th century onwards, a kind of Russian protestantism). There are probably many more, known only to academics, since Russian history is much less known to the masses than Western history.

Not to mention all the heterodox beliefs that ought to be condemned or at least officially clarified but, as far as I know, never were (perhaps this is a wisdom of the Orthodox, not creating sharp divisions unnecessarily over fine doctrinal points - something Rome sure could have learned some centuries ago): the debate whether there is such a thing as devil toll-houses (inherited from gnosticism?), that very weird phenomenon of slavophilia, going so far as a bishop in the 20th century affirming that the Serbs were a superior people, destined to suffer innocently more than others for the sins of mankind (was he oblivious to the atrocities committed by the Serbian kingdom?), the things that economy may or may not be used for.

This is one side of the historical naivety. The other side is the political reality of the Orthodox world. Why do we know so little about the Orthodox heresies? Why didn’t they last (well, some did, but barely)? Because of the inherent and apparent superiority of Orthodoxy? Not quite. The Byzantine empire, and after its fall the Russian empire, crushed and oppressed religious dissent with absolute violence.

Connected with this political reality, the Orthodox world was one of much more poverty and less education than the West. It was not out of pious reverence and theosis that the masses of Russian serfs remained in squalor and ignorance. That is not a testament to the purer spirituality of Russia; but of its oppressive social system, which indeed blocked any possibility of cultural flourishing outside the narrow of the liturgy and Church architecture and spiritual life, which were made possible by the oppressive autocratic State, first in Constantinople, then in Russia.

Why didn’t universities appear in the Orthodox East? Why did Russian intellectuals, when they eventually arise, become so enthralled with all things Western? Because theirs was a very poor (not only economically, but also culturally) environment.

A thriving and productive intellectual world will give rise to more heterodoxy? Given our fallen condition, maybe. But it also allows for a more mature life of the soul, one which doesn’t need historical naivety and mystifications to see its own value.

 

[dzheremi]

Why didn’t universities appear in the Orthodox East?

Do the schools of Alexandria and Antioch mean nothing to you? I am seriously dumbfounded that someone could argue as you have, especially while accusing others of “historical naivete”! There were also the schools of Nisbis and Edessa, which are central to the history of Syriac Christianity (Orthodox and otherwise).

These were all founded long before the first universities in Europe.

But it also allows for a more mature life of the soul, one which doesn’t need historical naivety and mystifications to see its own value.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t think anything in the post that you are responding to mentions what Jesus Christ did or did not do. Rather, our divisions are a result of what WE, His followers, have done or not done. Of course there is one Savior, and one church, and one faith. We all agree on that, but disagree on the identity and content of at least the last two. Simply stating that the faith is “ultimately the same” does nothing to address the viewpoints of the other communions which do not believe that the faith is ultimately the same.

I agree with Scott, we are ultimately too different.

Yes, that is why we should work on unity no matter what. If we believe at all that the Church is the Body of Christ, which we do, then we shouldn’t wound the body of Christ through our own divisions.

 

[5Loaves]

J.M.J.
Well, if Eastern Catholics are visiting Orthodox parishes on any given day, I hope that it is with the permission of their priest or bishop. Otherwise that wouldn’t be so good.

We often post rides to services on the parish e-list and our deacon is among those who go to Orthodox services at these times when we have no services. When we have the services in our own parish we go there. At any given time you will find Catholics in an Orthodox Liturgy or service, just as there are plenty of Christians and pagans who are in the pews in the Latin Church most Sundays. We’ve had Orthodox youth come to our EC parish for services as well. This has always gone on and always will.

… And then, did you notice just recently, when the Pope received a new Tiara, it was the gift of both Catholics and Orthodox.

I think any time individual Catholics and Orthodox can do something together like that it’s great. But a Catholic businessman who commissioned the Tiara and an Orthodox craftsman who made it and their companions doing this Tiara project is far from a sign of reunion at hand. (It has seemed a really odd gift to me. HH Benedict XVI has a mitre in his coat of arms not a Tiara; the use of the Tiara was abandoned a number of pontificates ago.)

I walked in the Walk for Life West Coast with a couple Orthodox parishes and hopefully some day we can manage to get a larger combined group for the Walk. At least there are Orthodox and Catholics in the same Walk for Life, even if not side by side. This I find meaningful unity.

…The best thing we can do is pray and commend the cause to the Mother of God, Theotokos.

Her protection has kept my parish alive, we all firmly believe.
I think that the Orientale Lumen conferences are very important even though it’s a small group of people, they have real scholars and leaders who actually know what they are talking about for a real dialog. Bodies like the Joint Commission of Orthodox & Roman Catholic Bishops, and the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation are important, but again this is a small group and many totally dismiss their work.

No one would be happier to see reunion than I would be and I do look for hopeful signs. I am by nature an optimist. Someone I respect a lot said yesterday that things have improved between Rome and the MP because HH Benedict XVI isn’t asking to go visit Moscow the way JP2 was doing.

These, among other things, are things the Orthodox Churches suffer from…

We see through a different lens on these issues.

(What does “J.M.J.” mean?)

 

[Harpazo]

One doesn’t have to be under the Bishop of Rome or accept Papal supremacy to appreciate the role he plays in standing up for life, families, etc.

There will always be that role in the Church for the Bishop of Rome (and perhaps other prominent bishops). I think Pope Benedict has been a outstanding pope and wish him many years.

As for accessibility, you could always help start a mission. Seriously. I have a good friend who is a Serbian Orthodox priest in Spain who has started maybe 10 churches.

Hieromonk Ambrose of St. Gregory Palamas Monastery in OH ended up starting at least one parish in the world (in northern CA, I believe) under the care of Hieromonk Seraphim of Platina. That was back when he was Fr. Alexy Young, but when his wife reposed he entered monasticism. He actually converted from Rome to Orthodoxy in San Francisco sometime after Vatican II, but lived some 5 hours from an Orthodox church, if memory serves me.

They would make a trip once a month, but converted a shed into a small chapel in their backyard to do daily prayers, psalter readings, etc. Their neighbors noticed them coming home from work and school tired and cranky, but when they saw them leave their little chapel after work Fr. Alexy and his family were radiant with joy and love. Eventually a mission and then a parish grew out of their labors. It’s not unheard of!

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[LoyalViews]

We often post rides to services on the parish e-list and our deacon is among those who go to Orthodox services at these times when we have no services. When we have the services in our own parish we go there. At any given time you will find Catholics in an Orthodox Liturgy or service, just as there are plenty of Christians and pagans who are in the pews in the Latin Church most Sundays. We’ve had Orthodox youth come to our EC parish for services as well. This has always gone on and always will.

I think any time individual Catholics and Orthodox can do something together like that it’s great. But a Catholic businessman who commissioned the Tiara and an Orthodox craftsman who made it and their companions doing this Tiara project is far from a sign of reunion at hand. (It has seemed a really odd gift to me. HH Benedict XVI has a mitre in his coat of arms not a Tiara; the use of the Tiara was abandoned a number of pontificates ago.)

I walked in the Walk for Life West Coast with a couple Orthodox parishes and hopefully some day we can manage to get a larger combined group for the Walk. At least there are Orthodox and Catholics in the same Walk for Life, even if not side by side. This I find meaningful unity.

Her protection has kept my parish alive, we all firmly believe.
I think that the Orientale Lumen conferences are very important even though it’s a small group of people, they have real scholars and leaders who actually know what they are talking about for a real dialog. Bodies like the Joint Commission of Orthodox & Roman Catholic Bishops, and the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation are important, but again this is a small group and many totally dismiss their work.

No one would be happier to see reunion than I would be and I do look for hopeful signs. I am by nature an optimist. Someone I respect a lot said yesterday that things have improved between Rome and the MP because HH Benedict XVI isn’t asking to go visit Moscow the way JP2 was doing.

We see through a different lens on these issues.

(What does “J.M.J.” mean?)

J.M.J. means “Jesus, Mary and Joseph”.

God Bless :byzsoc:

 

[5Loaves]

J.M.J. means “Jesus, Mary and Joseph”.

Meaning what?

 

[Padraig1972]

Meaning what?

The Holy Family.

 

[Dave_in_Dallas]

How do you know many of the people that attend RC parishes are spiritually empty? What criteria are you using? I’ve been both Orthodox and Roman Catholic and have attended different parishes in both Churches through the years. There are devout and not so devout who attend both.

Hmmm…well I’ll take the priest’s word for it Sunday’s homily for one.
In my neck of the woods one can tell. The Protestants put the Catholics to shame on so many levels…