Why be Catholic?

[JRKH]

I understand what you are saying. But, we are all sinners and all of us sin willfully at some point. Even within grave sin there are many different kinds and some are definately more serious than others. God is all just but He is also all merciful. To me, if I understand correctly, it looks like the Church is taking the final decision away from God.

Since The Church teaches under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, it teaches what God wants taught. So such teaching never “Takes away” some decision from God, but rather conveys to us the decision OF God in a given situation. You are making the mistake of looking at Church teaching and God’s Will as being two different things. They are not.
Remember that Jesus Promised the Church, "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. (Mt 16:18)

Who knows why God may decide to take mercy on a soul or not? Maybe that person died after just committing the sin and didn’t have time to repent. Maybe that person died on the way to confession. Maybe that person lived an over all good life and worked very hard at getting away from a particular grave vice but wasn’t quite successful. Is there no room within the Church to hope that God would have mercy on such an individual?

This is where these things get complicated.
It’s Called the “What-if” syndrome.
The Church’s teachings on the result of dying with unrepentant, unconfessed mortal sin is clear. There are, of course all of the "What-if’s that deal primarily with whether the person died unrepentant and/or without confessing. These are things best left to the mercy of God.
The upshot for us is 1) Don’t commit a mortal sin and 2) If you do, repent and get to confession ASAP.

I guess what I’m trying to say is, rather than try to figure out all the “what-ifs”, let us sincerely try not to get on God’s wrong side in the first place.

Peace
James

 

[Randy_Carson]

If there is salvation outside of the Church, why be Catholic?

Maybe my knowledge of my own Catholic faith is in error but a few points just don’t add up. I have heard the argument that the “Church” is all that are baptized and such other things. But that still doesn’t add up to the statements below.

1. If I do not go to Mass on Sunday I am in a state of Mortal Sin.
2. If I die prior to confession I believe that I will go to hell.
3. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to Mass on Sunday. Aren’t they in a state of Mortal Sin?
4. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to confession. Aren’t they then going to hell for having the Mortal Sin on their soul?
5. I have heard the argument that the Church is the “fullness” of Christianity. But if you don’t need the “fullness” to get salvation then what do you need?
6. Why do I have to go to Mass on Sunday?
7. Why can’t I just say a prayer and my sins will be forgiven?

I am not falling away from my faith. I love my faith. I just can’t wrap my mind around why I need to be Catholic if I don’t need to be? Hope that makes sense. It just doesnt add up.

Why Be Catholic
An Exercise for Evangelicals
by James Akin
cin.org/users/james/files/Why_Be_Catholic.htm

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

 

[expectthebest]

Since The Church teaches under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, it teaches what God wants taught. So such teaching never “Takes away” some decision from God, but rather conveys to us the decision OF God in a given situation. You are making the mistake of looking at Church teaching and God’s Will as being two different things. They are not.
Remember that Jesus Promised the Church, "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. (Mt 16:18)

This implies that the Church is teaching now everything that God ever wanted to be taught. We know this is probably not the case. Church teaching has not changed over time but it has been added upon as more of the fullness of truth is revealed. For example, God has the power to reveal more about this subject in the future if He wishes which may clear up some of the what ifs. Yes the Church has it’s teaching of mortal sin and salvation. But, is this to say that God can’t make up his own mind in the end for whatever special cercumstance might exist? In fact, isn’t there a reknowned theologen who believes there is hope that all will be saved?

 

[JRKH]

Since The Church teaches under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, it teaches what God wants taught. So such teaching never “Takes away” some decision from God, but rather conveys to us the decision OF God in a given situation. You are making the mistake of looking at Church teaching and God’s Will as being two different things. They are not.
Remember that Jesus Promised the Church, "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. (Mt 16:18)

I don’t see how my statement above implies what you are saying it does. God has revealed and the Church teaches that revelation. God has already “made His decision” as regards this particular issue.
As to additional teachings in the future, I have no idea. We can only work with what we have now.

Of course God will judge each person as an individual. But the Church’s job is to “Lay down the rules” so that we will know what God does and does not allow. Then we can steer rightly.

Church teaching has not changed over time but it has been added upon as more of the fullness of truth is revealed. For example, God has the power to reveal more about this subject in the future if He wishes which may clear up some of the what ifs.

Actually, the Church teaches God has already revealed everything He wants us to know. It is not revelation that changes but our understanding that changes and grows.

Yes the Church has it’s teaching of mortal sin and salvation. But, is this to say that God can’t make up his own mind in the end for whatever special cercumstance might exist?

God will do as He wills. In the circumstance of the original question about dying in a state of mortal sin (no mitigating circumstances) God has declared condemnation. As for any mitigating circumstances I suggest studying the catachism.
For Us it is best we just try not to offend God.

In fact, isn’t there a reknowned theologen who believes there is hope that all will be saved?

There may well be, but until this idea becomes official Church doctrine it remains only one persons opinion

Peace
James

 

[mlchance]

Question: Why be Catholic?

Answer: The Eucharist.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[JOE_OBERR]

If there is salvation outside of the Church, why be Catholic?

Maybe my knowledge of my own Catholic faith is in error but a few points just don’t add up. I have heard the argument that the “Church” is all that are baptized and such other things. But that still doesn’t add up to the statements below.

1. If I do not go to Mass on Sunday I am in a state of Mortal Sin.
2. If I die prior to confession I believe that I will go to hell.
3. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to Mass on Sunday. Aren’t they in a state of Mortal Sin?
4. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to confession. Aren’t they then going to hell for having the Mortal Sin on their soul?
5. I have heard the argument that the Church is the “fullness” of Christianity. But if you don’t need the “fullness” to get salvation then what do you need?
6. Why do I have to go to Mass on Sunday?
7. Why can’t I just say a prayer and my sins will be forgiven?

I am not falling away from my faith. I love my faith. I just can’t wrap my mind around why I need to be Catholic if I don’t need to be? Hope that makes sense. It just doesnt add up.

You bring up a good point. Why become a Catholic if one is not, or remain one if already Catholic? After all the Church teaches that being a baptized Catholic is NOT necessary for salvation:

“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. CCC #1260

The Church is saying here baptism as a Catholic isn’t a requirement for salvation. Therefore, why did Jesus found a Church? Anybody know?

 

[expectthebest]

I don’t see how my statement above implies what you are saying it does. God has revealed and the Church teaches that revelation. God has already “made His decision” as regards this particular issue.
As to additional teachings in the future, I have no idea. We can only work with what we have now.

Of course God will judge each person as an individual. But the Church’s job is to “Lay down the rules” so that we will know what God does and does not allow. Then we can steer rightly.

Actually, the Church teaches God has already revealed everything He wants us to know. It is not revelation that changes but our understanding that changes and grows.

God will do as He wills. In the circumstance of the original question about dying in a state of mortal sin (no mitigating circumstances) God has declared condemnation. As for any mitigating circumstances I suggest studying the catachism.
For Us it is best we just try not to offend God.

There may well be, but until this idea becomes official Church doctrine it remains only one persons opinion

Peace
James

Thanks. Good answers.

Can it be said that we don’t know if the Church is teaching all that is to be known about this subject? Can we every know that the Church has a full understanding of all there is to ever know on a subject?

 

[JRKH]

Thanks. Good answers.

Can it be said that we don’t know if the Church is teaching all that is to be known about this subject? Can we every know that the Church has a full understanding of all there is to ever know on a subject?

It can be said that the Church is teaching all that is known on the subject. No one can speak for the future.

Our Faith would be the simplest and easiest in the World if it weren’t for People.
God says - Love your neighbor, We say - Yea but what if…
God says - Keep Holy the Lords day WE say - Yea but what if…
God says - Do not commit adultery We say - Yea but what if…
God says - Confess your sins We say - Yea but what if…
God says - BEHAVE We say - Yea but what if…

It goes on and on.
Christ spent three years teaching the Disciples and Apostles, He left us a Church and some simple commandments that all boil down to Love God and Each Other - Be Loving and Charitable and Be Holy.

To commit Sin, Mortal of Venial is to turn from God. Never mind if it’s a big sin or a little sin - It Offends God!!! AND it damages our immortal soul.
Sin is not some action or other, it is a failure to remain focused on God, to act in ways that we know are acceptable and pleasing to Him.
Worrying about whether this or that sin, under this or that circumstnace will get us condemned is a very bad and dangerous attitude. I am coming to realize this more and more each day.
We would all do well to simply stop all this legalism and simply do all we can to “Do The Father’s Will”.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

You bring up a good point. Why become a Catholic if one is not, or remain one if already Catholic? After all the Church teaches that being a baptized Catholic is NOT necessary for salvation:

“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. CCC #1260

The Church is saying here baptism as a Catholic isn’t a requirement for salvation. Therefore, why did Jesus found a Church? Anybody know?

Simple Jesus Founded a Church to bring the Fullness of Truth to Man and to protect same.
As to the quote from the Catachism, you will note that it states:
Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved

Note that the passage says that persons outside the Church are “offered” the chance at salvation. However it is much harder without the Church.
Second, this passage only applies to those ignorant of the Gospel and the Church. So a Catholic who leaves the Church definitely does not fit that catagory.
Third they must do the Will of God as they understand it. We know God’s will and how many of us do it. So the “Call to Holiness” remains the same.

Whether inside or outside the Church persons seeking to be saved must LIVE the life of Holiness. Christ’s Church and Gospel are resources to help us grow in Holiness. To provide example and guidance.

I’m really Glad Jesus Founded a Church.

Peace
James

 

[notJaneAusten]

If there is salvation outside of the Church, why be Catholic?

Maybe my knowledge of my own Catholic faith is in error but a few points just don’t add up. I have heard the argument that the “Church” is all that are baptized and such other things. But that still doesn’t add up to the statements below.

1. If I do not go to Mass on Sunday I am in a state of Mortal Sin.

1. If I die prior to confession I believe that I will go to hell.

1. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to Mass on Sunday. Aren’t they in a state of Mortal Sin?

1. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to confession. Aren’t they then going to hell for having the Mortal Sin on their soul?

1. I have heard the argument that the Church is the “fullness” of Christianity. But if you don’t need the “fullness” to get salvation then what do you need?

1. Why do I have to go to Mass on Sunday?

1. Why can’t I just say a prayer and my sins will be forgiven?

I am not falling away from my faith. I love my faith. I just can’t wrap my mind around why I need to be Catholic if I don’t need to be?

When I read this, the thought that jumped into my mind is: To whom much is given, much is expected. I think that the “much” we’ve been given as Catholics is knowledge as to how God wants us to behave. We’ve been given that knowledge through the Church, so we should follow it knowing that that behavior pleases God. Since we know He is merciful, we know He wouldn’t punish those who do not know how to behave better. We should want to behave that way because we should want to please God.

notJane

 

[notJaneAusten]

If a person who had been Catholic and then fell away. They are doomed. To have been in the fullness and to regect it. I got that.

So basically stated. Since I now have the “Fullness” of the Church, I could not be saved outside of the Church. Is that correct?

Without getting into all of the possible “what-if’s” yes that is correct.

Wouldn’t that person have to have known s/he had the fullnes of faith and completely understood what s/he was giving up?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Correct me if i am wrong guys but i think there is a reason why the CC is trying so hard to bring all christians into the CC.

now i dont know what will happen to those who rebel and reject the Church. only our Lord knows.

the Church knows much more than we do. we must trust that she will do accordingly to what Jesus wants.

:byzsoc:

 

[1holycatholic]

Because the structure the Catholic Church provides - with its valid sacraments and Holy-Spirit-guided teachings, is the best help to BOTH the fullness of Truth AND salvation. ‘You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free’, remember, truth has its advantages in regard to salvation as well as being worthwhile for its own sake.

Let’s think of two people who want to travel along the same road to the same destination. One (non-Catholic), not knowing that such a thing as a car exists, and not having an accurate map or GPS, or not knowing how to use them if they do have the good luck to possess them. They might still get there in the end but only after having walked the whole way, getting their feet blistered, taking ages, getting regularly lost and having serious trouble finding the right road again when they do.

The other (Catholic), hops into the air-conditioned comfort of their car (driven by a chauffeur who is well-trained by the people who live at the destination, and therefore knows the way very well). They are furthermore equipped with map and GPS for backup as well, so that on the off chance that something goes wrong it’s very easy for them to get back on the right track. They travel more speedily and surely to their destination - as LONG as they stay in the car and aren’t idiotic enough to decide to go it alone, of course.

Someone who knows the teachings of the Catholic church has the option of going either way. Anyone who’s sensible chooses option b.

Once I understood what the Catholic Church teaches and why, I had to be in communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[notJaneAusten]

This brings up a question I’ve thought of recently.

The Church says infallibly that if a person dies in the state of mortal sin, that person cannot be saved. This seemingly takes the decision out of God’s hands.

I would say that by the definition of mortal sin, the sinner, by committing a mortal sin, takes their salvation out of God’s hands. By rejecting God with free will and God won’t take our free will away.

On the other hand, the Church also teaches that God can save whomever He wants and we can never know if someone is saved or not regardless of their religious affiliation. In this case, the teaching is that God may take any decision he wants. So, how do these two teaching come together?

My understanding is that people who reject God will not go to heaven, though those in ignorance can make it. That is how I see the two teachings coming together

 

[notJaneAusten]

The Church is saying here baptism as a Catholic isn’t a requirement for salvation. Therefore, why did Jesus found a Church? Anybody know?

Because it teaches the way he wants us to be saved?

 

[JRKH]

Wouldn’t that person have to have known s/he had the fullnes of faith and completely understood what s/he was giving up?

Yes, but if you note in the question to which I was responding, the person acknowledges having the “Fullness” of the Church.

This is the problem. as I keep saying, with trying to answer these things. All the “What-if’s”.
The OP’er asked a very pointed question and asked for a very pointed answer based strictly upon the question without getting into particulars. That is the question I answered.

As to Each particular circumstance that will be answered by God at judgement.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Correct me if i am wrong guys but i think there is a reason why the CC is trying so hard to bring all christians into the CC.

now i dont know what will happen to those who rebel and reject the Church. only our Lord knows.

the Church knows much more than we do. we must trust that she will do accordingly to what Jesus wants.

:byzsoc:

Nicely Put:thumbsup:

This has been a pretty good thread I think for two reasons. One is that we are, for the most part, not being sidetracked by individual permutations of the subject. The other is that Several times links to the Catachism have been offered and hopefully those who want a fuller understanding of the subject will go and check it out.
The Church does indeed know better than we and has given us a tremendous resourse in the CCC.

Peace
James

 

[notJaneAusten]

Yes, but if you note in the question to which I was responding, the person acknowledges having the “Fullness” of the Church.

This is the problem. as I keep saying, with trying to answer these things. All the “What-if’s”.
The OP’er asked a very pointed question and asked for a very pointed answer based strictly upon the question without getting into particulars. That is the question I answered.

Sorry, I just see a difference between having it and knowing you have it.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wouldn’t that person have to have known s/he had the fullnes of faith and completely understood what s/he was giving up?

and Jesus said “blessed are those who did not see and yet believed”.

:byzsoc:

 

[JRKH]

Sorry, I just see a difference between having it and knowing you have it.

There Is - There Is.

And that is why it is good to keep it simple

1. Read the Catachism.
2. Try REAL HARD not to offend God.
3. Go to confession regularly.

Peace
James