Why be Protestant? I would like to know

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Iseekthee:
If Jesus meant this as a metaphor why did many of his disciples desert him…John 6:60 “This is a hard teaching, who can accept it?” Why didn’t Jesus go after them and say wait a minute, it’s only a metaphor?
He knew that these people had never really believed in Him (John 6:64:"‘Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.’). Jesus didn’t always explain His teachings to those who rejected Him.

In Matthew 13:10-17, Jesus explains that He kept some people from understanding what He was teaching on purpose.

Peace
 
I think a huge bonus for Protestantism is that you don’t have to have XY chromosomes to pastor a church.🙂
 
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EA_Man:
He knew that these people had never really believed in Him (John 6:64:"‘Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.’). Jesus didn’t always explain His teachings to those who rejected Him.

In Matthew 13:10-17, Jesus explains that He kept some people from understanding what He was teaching on purpose.

Peace
That’s never been the historic teaching of the Church, or the interpretation of John 6:64 until some time after the reformation.
It’s very difficult to explain it all away with metaphor when you have verses such as this:
For my flesh is meat **indeed; **and my blood is drink indeed. (emphasis mine)
 
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Mickey:
That’s never been the historic teaching of the Church, or the interpretation of John 6:64 until some time after the reformation.
It’s very difficult to explain it all away with metaphor when you have verses such as this:
For my flesh is meat **indeed; **and my blood is drink indeed. (emphasis mine)
John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Further, the entire context of this chapter needs to be taken into account. Jesus is speaking to people who are following Him looking for a miracle. They cite the fact that Moses ‘proved’ that he was sent by God by providing manna, what was Jesus going to do for them?

Jesus is saying to them - "Hey you want bread, I am bread - you must completely consume (make part of you - completely believe) Me.

Peace
 
EA man, How do you know that what is said in John 6:63 is refering to the Eucharist? If you look back John 3:6-7 it will explain what is meant in Jn 6:63. It has nothing to do with the Eucharist although you might think it does.
 
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EA_Man:
Jesus is saying to them - "Hey you want bread, I am bread - you must completely consume (make part of you - completely believe) Me.
More revisionist interp.

For Fundamentalist writers, the scriptural argument is capped by an appeal to John 6:63: “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” They say this means that eating real flesh is a waste. But does this make sense?

Are we to understand that Christ had just commanded his disciples to eat his flesh, then said their doing so would be pointless? Is that what “the flesh is of no avail” means? “Eat my flesh, but you’ll find it’s a waste of time”—is that what he was saying? Hardly.

The fact is that Christ’s flesh avails much! If it were of no avail, then the Son of God incarnated for no reason, he died for no reason, and he rose from the dead for no reason. Christ’s flesh profits us more than anyone else’s in the world. If it profits us nothing, so that the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ are of no avail, then “your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished” (1 Cor. 15:17b–18).

In John 6:63 “flesh profits nothing” refers to mankind’s inclination to think using only what their natural human reason would tell them rather than what God would tell them. Thus in John 8:15–16 Jesus tells his opponents: “You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me.” So natural human judgment, unaided by God’s grace, is unreliable; but God’s judgment is always true.

And were the disciples to understand the line “The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life” as nothing but a circumlocution (and a very clumsy one at that) for “symbolic”? No one can come up with such interpretations unless he first holds to the Fundamentalist position and thinks it necessary to find a rationale, no matter how forced, for evading the Catholic interpretation. In John 6:63 “flesh” does not refer to Christ’s own flesh—the context makes this clear—but to mankind’s inclination to think on a natural, human level. “The words I have spoken to you are spirit” does not mean “What I have just said is symbolic.” The word “spirit” is never used that way in the Bible. The line means that what Christ has said will be understood only through faith; only by the power of the Spirit and the drawing of the Father (cf. John 6:37, 44–45, 65).

They say that in John 6 Jesus was not talking about physical food and drink, but about spiritual food and drink. They quote John 6:35: “Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.’” They claim that coming to him is bread, having faith in him is drink. Thus, eating his flesh and blood merely means believing in Christ.

But there is a problem with that interpretation. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, “The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense” (O’Brien, The Faith of Millions, 215). For an example of this use, see Micah 3:3.
**CA
**
 
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EA_Man:
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
Then Christ dying on the cross counts for nothing. The divinity of Jesus didn’t die on the cross, since God cannot die. It was the humanity of Jesus that died on the cross. It is by the FLESH of Jesus that we are saved.

Your interpretation of John 6:63 denies that we are saved by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Yet all I hear Protestants say is that Jesus paid for our sins by dying on the cross. This is another contradiction of Protestant interpretation of Scripture. This is why the Church has always rejected personal interpretation of Scripture.
 
We’ve been through this all before, EA_Man. You should know by now that when you begin attacking the Blessed Sacrament on a Catholic forum, you’re in for a long day. 😃
 
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EA_Man:
John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Further, the entire context of this chapter needs to be taken into account. Jesus is speaking to people who are following Him looking for a miracle. They cite the fact that Moses ‘proved’ that he was sent by God by providing manna, what was Jesus going to do for them?

Jesus is saying to them - "Hey you want bread, I am bread - you must completely consume (make part of you - completely believe) Me.

Peace
Dear EA_Man:

Your use of John 6:63 does not make a lot of sense to me. First, to say that Christ’s flesh counts for nothing is absurd, for it is the immolation of that very flesh which redeems the world.

Secondly, the Spirit does give life, but how does that translate into a metaphorical/symbolic interpretation of the Eucharist? Jesus in John 4:23 indicates that we will worship God in Spirit and in Truth. Using your logic, does that mean we aren’t actually supposed to be worshipping God, but should be offering only a symbolic worship or a metaphorical worship?

Fiat
 
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Mickey:
We’ve been through this all before, EA_Man. You should know by now that when you begin attacking the Blessed Sacrament on a Catholic forum, you’re in for a long day. 😃
I’m sorry if you think that this is an attack. It was not meant to be one. But it looks like we’ve wandered off topic anyway so I’ll pick up this ‘discussion’ up on another thread.

Peace
 
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Genesis315:
Think about it in light of the Isaiah passage. If that guy who got the keys (I always forget his name:o ) died before King David got back, would his position just disappear or would he have a successor?
Sounds resonable. I if I assume Peter had sucessors, then I have to look around and ask myself, who is Peter’s successor today?

Well, there’s this one guy who says he’s Peter’s successor, but who is he? Well it turns out a bunch of other guys got together, had a vote, and decided he was Peter’s successor. Who are these bunch of other guys? They are people just like me as far as I can tell.

This does not sound quite resonable to me. I could get together with 120 of my closest friends and vote on who is Peter’s successor.
 
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Angainor:
Well, there’s this one guy who says he’s Peter’s successor, but who is he? Well it turns out a bunch of other guys got together, had a vote, and decided he was Peter’s successor. Who are these bunch of other guys? They are people just like me as far as I can tell.
Not just any guys–the apostles’ successors! Guys who through the laying of the hands have a direct line to the original twelve (well, 11 of them anyway, I doubt Judas gave any one the sacrament of holy orders).

The other guys who claim to be pope were elected either by their buddies or their parents. That’s why they are not real popes and the Bishop of Rome (Peter’s office), a successor of the apostles himself, elected by other successors to apostles, is the real pope.👍
 
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Genesis315:
Not just any guys–the apostles’ successors! Guys who through the laying of the hands have a direct line to the original twelve (well, 11 of them anyway, I doubt Judas gave any one the sacrament of holy orders).

The other guys who claim to be pope were elected either by their buddies or their parents. That’s why they are not real popes and the Bishop of Rome (Peter’s office), a successor of the apostles himself, elected by other successors to apostles, is the real pope.👍
Jesus built his Church on Fishermen and Tax Collectors (that is to say: regular, but faithful, people). Jesus’ Church is still built on Fisherman and Tax Collectors.

As far as successors to the Apostles, when they selected a replacement for Judas they required an eyewitness. There are no successors to the 12.
 
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Angainor:
Sounds resonable. I if I assume Peter had sucessors, then I have to look around and ask myself, who is Peter’s successor today?

Well, there’s this one guy who says he’s Peter’s successor, but who is he? Well it turns out a bunch of other guys got together, had a vote, and decided he was Peter’s successor. Who are these bunch of other guys? They are people just like me as far as I can tell.

This does not sound quite resonable to me. I could get together with 120 of my closest friends and vote on who is Peter’s successor.
Did God breath on the 120 of your closest friends? No he did not. There are only 2 recording in the Bible, 1 was Adam and Eve and the other was when Jesus breathed on the Apostles. When he Breathed on them He gave them His power. Not Natural Power but supernatural power, of no human can give.

Popes, Bishops, Cardinals, Priests and Deacons can all be traced back to Peter. I do believe that is succession. Your statement is just s@#*!d.
 
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Genesis315:
Not just any guys–the apostles’ successors! Guys who through the laying of the hands have a direct line to the original twelve (well, 11 of them anyway, I doubt Judas gave any one the sacrament of holy orders).

The other guys who claim to be pope were elected either by their buddies or their parents. That’s why they are not real popes and the Bishop of Rome (Peter’s office), a successor of the apostles himself, elected by other successors to apostles, is the real pope.👍
Soory Genesis 315 I clicked the wrong qoute. 😛
 
I found protestants appear to use their churches as places of social gatherings rather than as places of serious worship.

I find protestantism to be a pragmatic religion in which works stand above faith, and not a speculative theology.

The pragmatic aspects of protestanism remind me less of a religion and more of Free Masonry, a practical world view with a ‘Great Architect’ replacing God, social standing determining worth, and predestination producing impartial observers instead of active participants.

I could not ever see myself becoming a protestant.
 
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Angainor:
Jesus built his Church on Fishermen and Tax Collectors (that is to say: regular, but faithful, people). Jesus’ Church is still built on Fisherman and Tax Collectors.

As far as successors to the Apostles, when they selected a replacement for Judas they required an eyewitness. There are no successors to the 12.
Just becuase He built the Church on a tax collector and fishermen, is that what the men really are. I’m an electrician but does that tell you what kind of person I am. You make it sound like because they were Tax colletors and fishermen that they were bad people. That was their jobs not who they were. You are right that the Church is still built on Tax collectors and fishermen, because these men were common and humble people and was not above anybody else, unlike the Pharisees and the Scribes, oh yeah and of course you.

Again if you go to the Vatican you can see the successors of the 12 and of Peter.
 
Chris Jacobsen:
Protestant churches are very friendly. It is easy to make friends there. The people are very sociable.

Catholic churches are just the opposite. A Catholic church is just about the most difficult place there is to make friends.
My wife and I found just the opposite. When we were first married, we never gave the Catholic church a chance because we were both raised in anti-Catholic families (where Catholicism was only brought up with anger).

For a number of years, my wife and I always seemed to be church shopping but we never found a place where we were made to feel we belonged. We attended an Episcopal church for awhile, but the priest kept making jokes about traditional values such as chastity and smirking about them during his sermon. In another church we attended just once, a woman cornering us during coffee and doughnuts told us how such and such ruined her life. Then there was the evangelical pastor who asked us questions in such a way that made us feel like we were on trial, and a Lutheran church we tried seemed like a big club with an “I’m ok, you’re ok so long as your not judgmental” philosophy. After a few years, we basically stopped going to church.

Then I was recruited to teach in a Catholic school. The Catholics we met due to my job never evangelized us, not even the priests, but wow everybody was friendly. They told me I wouldn’t be able to receive the Eucharist during school mass, but I wasn’t offended. I was just impressed with their intellectual honesty concerning their faith.

I was bothered a bit concerning the pope and Mary so I began to study on my own. After about three years, I had learned enough about Catholic tradition to yearn to be Catholic, but I was afraid to bring the subject up with my wife.

When the subject did come up, we both got excited because she had experienced the exact same conversion that I did and was worried about what I would say.

We approached a priest and he got excited for us and personally prepared us to enter the Church with great love. The whole Catholic community embraced and made us feel like part of a big loving family.
 
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dennisknapp:
What do you mean by “baptism of the Holy Spirit?”

How can Penecostalism be the work of God when many of their doctrines stand against the true Christian faith, ie belief in the Trinity. God would not pour His Spirit on those who would deny His true nature.

Peace
Most Pentecostals are Trinitarian. Only “Oneness Pentecostals” are not. They are a small percentage of the whole.
 
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bengal_fan:
wrong…ding…thanks for playing anyways…lol. actually, most “pentecostals” don’t even completely understand their own theology and where it came from. and most do attend because of the worship style. once they are sucked into the radical behavior and become a part of it, the experience keeps them in. they do not generally become penetacostal because of some great theological revelation…it is usually because of some personal experience which we all know can sometimes be deceiving.
Funny, in my 20 years in a Pentecostal church, I found the vast majority to know quite a lot about their faith. Just the opposite of my 20 years of experience in the Catholic Church in which I found most unwilling to speak or learn about their faith apart from the 5-10 homily they receive each week/

Pentecostals are among the most educated Christians about their beliefs. For one thing, they usually hear 30-60 minute sermons every Sunday morning, another 30 minute teaching Sunday night, a 45 minute teaching at the Wednesday evening service, a 45 minute teaching at the Bible study they attend and they continually listen to teachings on TV and tape and read books on their faith. That is not an exaggeration. It’s one of the stark differences one finds if you enter an Assemblies of God church.

From your comments, it sounds like you have a very limited and negative experience in Pentecostal surroundings. That happens, each individual church is a bit different, just like in Catholicism. One Catholic Church may seem dead and dry while the next alive and vibrant. But in order to paint in such broad strokes, you need a bigger persective.

David
 
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